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Plus/Minus Flyers vs Pens 2/20/13

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:53 PM
  #426
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
A couple more things I've been pondering.

Everyone knows every single game against the Flyers is going to be chippy, physical, maybe even dirty. Everyone also knows that it's always the guy that retaliates that gets caught. So maybe instead of the Pens passive/aggressive style they've adopted, they could actually try instigating the physicality. Philly was down 2-0, calls a timeout, and immediately some plug boards Bortuzzo into the glass. Didn't seem like they cared too much about a 2 minute penalty, even being down 2-0. Why? It changed the momentum of the game. It could backfire, but it also can work.

Remember a few years ago against Philly, there were 3 fights in a row off the opening faceoff? 3 Pens beat the **** out of 3 Flyers. Philly didn't do too much cheap **** after that. We also had guys that could/would actually get on other teams stars nerves (Talbot, Cooke, etc). Now we have nobody that does that. Sid and Geno constantly have their heads on a swivel, yet Giroux could carry a carton of eggs.

There is no way Malkin should have taken those crosschecks. After the first 2 or 3, Cooke or whover else was on the ice at that time should have planted Coultier on his ass.

This 'team toughness' we keep hearing about isn't there. It isn't about having a goon in the lineup. It isn't about engaging in little scuffles after whistles. It's about making sure nobody ****s w/ you or your teammates. If Rinaldo wants to run around cheapshotting guys, and he's too big a puss to fight Engelland, then we need someone to start running Giroux, Brierre, etc. This team is severely missing that nastiness that made them great a few years ago, and it's pissing me off.
So if we get into fights and "win", which is usually subjective unless someone gets KO'ed, Rinaldo and company will be afraid to go after our guys? When is this idea that "fighting intimidates the other team" going to go away? The Flyers are a tough team themselves. They're not backing down. Rinaldo isn't scared trust me. Simmons sure as hell didn't wilt after he fought Glass.

So Cooke or someone should've went after Couturier? And taken a penalty? Kind of like Neal did when he was doing his usual whiney act of late by going after a guy who never touched the puck? Just play the damn game and fight through it. Our team isn't mentally tough enough, that's the problem.

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02-21-2013, 03:53 PM
  #427
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All that being said; we lost by 1 goal to a good team (and division rival). We played our backup goalie, who quite possibly played the worst game in the history of organized hockey, and Philly got 3 absolutely fluke goals. I'm not taking the bridge, yet...

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02-21-2013, 03:54 PM
  #428
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Malone is definitely starting to look like a guy who'd make sense for us. From what I remember, we were one of the only teams he was willing to waive his ntc for. He'd be a low cost acquisition. Then use our high end assets on Sid's RW.

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02-21-2013, 03:58 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
So if we get into fights and "win", which is usually subjective unless someone gets KO'ed, Rinaldo and company will be afraid to go after our guys? When is this idea that "fighting intimidates the other team" going to go away? The Flyers are a tough team themselves. They're not backing down. Rinaldo isn't scared trust me. Simmons sure as hell didn't wilt after he fought Glass.
I'll take the words of 60+ years worth of players talking about how intimidation is a big part of the game over your theory that weakness leads to success. No offense.

How many runs and cheap shots was Simmons involved in after that fight?

If Rinaldo isn't scared, then why didn't he drop them w/ Engelland? Was it just because he goaded Engo and Tang into taking penalties? I'll agree w/ that. Shame we don't have the type of player that will do that for us huh?

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02-21-2013, 03:59 PM
  #430
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Malone is definitely starting to look like a guy who'd make sense for us. From what I remember, we were one of the only teams he was willing to waive his ntc for. He'd be a low cost acquisition. Then use our high end assets on Sid's RW.
Im on board. Can we trade TK, Kunitz, Orpik, HCDB, and Vokoun for him?
Joking. Kinda

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02-21-2013, 03:59 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
So if we get into fights and "win", which is usually subjective unless someone gets KO'ed, Rinaldo and company will be afraid to go after our guys? When is this idea that "fighting intimidates the other team" going to go away? The Flyers are a tough team themselves. They're not backing down. Rinaldo isn't scared trust me. Simmons sure as hell didn't wilt after he fought Glass.

So Cooke or someone should've went after Couturier? And taken a penalty? Kind of like Neal did when he was doing his usual whiney act of late by going after a guy who never touched the puck? Just play the damn game and fight through it. Our team isn't mentally tough enough, that's the problem.
I don't think he necessarily meant fighting exclusively. But it's not a crime to get in the faces of their skill guys rather than reacting to it.

I pretty much agree with everything Terrapin said, the games are inevitably going to go that way, you'd might as well get them before they get you. And in situations like that, you're more likely to take someone else off with you.

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02-21-2013, 04:06 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
I'll take the words of 60+ years worth of players talking about how intimidation is a big part of the game over your theory that weakness leads to success. No offense.

How many runs and cheap shots was Simmons involved in after that fight?

If Rinaldo isn't scared, then why didn't he drop them w/ Engelland? Was it just because he goaded Engo and Tang into taking penalties? I'll agree w/ that. Shame we don't have the type of player that will do that for us huh?
Who cares who he fights with? It has no bearing on the friggin game. He ran Engelland over twice, once when Engelland thought he was going to blast Rinaldo and turned out to be wrong. So he didn't fight him. Did he get one over on him in this particular game? Without question.

30-60 years ago the game was completely different. I was either not alive or a baby but I'm comfortable saying that just based on what I've gathered over time. The last 20 years it's just garbage sound bites from guys like Crosby who aren't going to come out and say a guy like Godard is useless. The idea that players get to this league and are intimidated is a joke. There are very few examples and they are always extreme finesse players like Semin, not tough guys like Rinaldo who got this far BECAUSE they're fearless.

Lastly, Simmonds was too busy putting up points to get into any scraps. The same can't be said of our guys. See what I'm saying?

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02-21-2013, 04:18 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Who cares who he fights with? It has no bearing on the friggin game. He ran Engelland over twice, once when Engelland thought he was going to blast Rinaldo and turned out to be wrong. So he didn't fight him. Did he get one over on him in this particular game? Without question.

30-60 years ago the game was completely different. I was either not alive or a baby but I'm comfortable saying that just based on what I've gathered over time. The last 20 years it's just garbage sound bites from guys like Crosby who aren't going to come out and say a guy like Godard is useless. The idea that players get to this league and are intimidated is a joke. There are very few examples and they are always extreme finesse players like Semin, not tough guys like Rinaldo who got this far BECAUSE they're fearless.

Lastly, Simmonds was too busy putting up points to get into any scraps. The same can't be said of our guys. See what I'm saying?
Yeah I see what you're saying. And what I'm saying is, instead of standing around holding their *****, maybe they should be the aggressors for a change? We used to be, and were pretty damn good at it. Instead, we try playing our finesse game, Philly always makes it physical, and we can't handle it-one way or another. We know games against them are going to be tough, yet we continue our showboating passive style. Why are we worrying about Rinaldo running Letang or Cloutier running Geno? Because we see it every game we play them. Why aren't they worried about Cooke running Girioux? Know why, cause nobody ever does. And if you don't think that plays into the psychology of both teams, then I don't know what else to say to you.

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02-21-2013, 04:19 PM
  #434
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God forbid he gets frustrated by getting cross checked 6+ times and once in the face. Oh, let's trade the reigning Hart and Art Ross winner as well.
Thank you for this. This Malkin hater syndrome is absolutely absurd.

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02-21-2013, 04:25 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
So if we get into fights and "win", which is usually subjective unless someone gets KO'ed, Rinaldo and company will be afraid to go after our guys? When is this idea that "fighting intimidates the other team" going to go away? The Flyers are a tough team themselves. They're not backing down. Rinaldo isn't scared trust me. Simmons sure as hell didn't wilt after he fought Glass.

So Cooke or someone should've went after Couturier? And taken a penalty? Kind of like Neal did when he was doing his usual whiney act of late by going after a guy who never touched the puck? Just play the damn game and fight through it. Our team isn't mentally tough enough, that's the problem.


And yes, Cooke or someone should have went after him. If not at that point in time, someone eventually needs to get it in that guys head that if he continues to cheapshot Geno, then he better expect something back. If it's a (God forbid) 2 minute penalty, so be it. Killing a 2 minute penalty a few times a year for something like that isn't a big deal.

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02-21-2013, 04:46 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
[/B]

And yes, Cooke or someone should have went after him. If not at that point in time, someone eventually needs to get it in that guys head that if he continues to cheapshot Geno, then he better expect something back. If it's a (God forbid) 2 minute penalty, so be it. Killing a 2 minute penalty a few times a year for something like that isn't a big deal.
Yup. I'm tired of this "cleaner" version of the Pens. It's sickening. I could give a **** about the Pens organization winning some kind of PR war when it's costing them hockey games.

Remember when Kunitz tried to kill Timmonen when they won the Cup?

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02-21-2013, 04:49 PM
  #437
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All that being said; we lost by 1 goal to a good team (and division rival). We played our backup goalie, who quite possibly played the worst game in the history of organized hockey, and Philly got 3 absolutely fluke goals. I'm not taking the bridge, yet...
Seriously he played horrible. But Fleury plays games like that a ton. Every Flyer game and Montreal game in the playoffs was like that.

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02-21-2013, 06:30 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
[/B]

And yes, Cooke or someone should have went after him. If not at that point in time, someone eventually needs to get it in that guys head that if he continues to cheapshot Geno, then he better expect something back. If it's a (God forbid) 2 minute penalty, so be it. Killing a 2 minute penalty a few times a year for something like that isn't a big deal.
Finally, a Neal penalty to agree on:


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02-21-2013, 06:34 PM
  #439
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Yup. I'm tired of this "cleaner" version of the Pens. It's sickening. I could give a **** about the Pens organization winning some kind of PR war when it's costing them hockey games.

Remember when Kunitz tried to kill Timmonen when they won the Cup?
Kunitz is also getting a bit older and had been injured two years in a row. Playing a little more conservatively is probably a good thing for him. And I also remember him killing Stamkos in the 2011 playoffs. He can still bring it.

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02-21-2013, 06:40 PM
  #440
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Bylsma really showed confidence in his goalie by not starting fleury against our biggest rival.
I think it was just a schedule thing. This was a good opportunity to give him a nice 5 day break, plus he didn't want to derail Fleury by him having a bad game against the Flyers. He hasn't had much success against them lately. I think DB had the right idea, it just didn't work out.

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I agree with this. Malkin has some fire in him and some pride. He's not going to take that kind of ****. It's actually on Cooke to make sure HE is the one that retaliates / gets taken off the ice with Couturier, not Malkin. Last year it was Kunitz's job. Some of Geno's penalties are just dumb but some are understandable and that was one of them. I'm glad he stood up for himself even if Cooke didn't get in there and get in Couturier's face.
I don't have a problem with that sequence, that was an awful call and he had to stand up for himself. I actually thought he showed a lot of restrain. He needs to do that more often, and others need to come to his aid. My biggest issue is there is no consistency in his defensive game. Sure he has a nice block here and a nice takeaway there, but he needs to play the entire ice surface. I am sick and tired of him cheating and then never coming back when we get hemmed in. Everybody always talks about his wingers, but you can see it in his personal game. When he plays hard on every shift in both zones, he is better offensively and his plus/minus numbers reflect the way he is playing. Matt Cooke is not holding him down.

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02-21-2013, 06:42 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Yup. I'm tired of this "cleaner" version of the Pens. It's sickening. I could give a **** about the Pens organization winning some kind of PR war when it's costing them hockey games.

Remember when Kunitz tried to kill Timmonen when they won the Cup?
Why can't the Penguins play like that without elbowing in the head? I really don't understand.

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02-21-2013, 07:07 PM
  #442
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Before people jump off of any bridges, consider that two goals went in off of our own sticks, and another two were literally handed to them by Vokoun. So essentially two legit goals, and it's not like Vokoun had to make a bunch of spectacular saves otherwise.

I know that it sucks to blow yet another lead to the Flyers, and there were some familliar problems including lack of discipline that surfaced yet again, but this game is no reason to panic.

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02-21-2013, 07:15 PM
  #443
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Malone is definitely starting to look like a guy who'd make sense for us. From what I remember, we were one of the only teams he was willing to waive his ntc for. He'd be a low cost acquisition. Then use our high end assets on Sid's RW.
Worry about the cap hit and the health, but I'll repeat this: If Ryan Malone were on Geno's LW last night, then Geno wouldn't have needed to stand up for himself after a dozen cross checks last night. He wouldn't have had to take even a second cross check from Couturier, because Malone would've put him in the morgue after the first one. As I said, in 2007-2008, nobody ****** with Geno. I remember guys like Hartnell would try, and all it would take from any of them would be a dirty look in Geno's direction for Malone to step in. The Pens don't have guys like that anymore. Kunitz should be. Cooke? Where the **** was he last night? Pathetic.

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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Yup. I'm tired of this "cleaner" version of the Pens. It's sickening. I could give a **** about the Pens organization winning some kind of PR war when it's costing them hockey games.

Remember when Kunitz tried to kill Timmonen when they won the Cup?
Yep. Wrote this earlier: What's even scarier is what Kunitz did to Timmonen in 2009 was child's play compared to what guys like Malone and Roberts put him through the year before.

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02-21-2013, 08:14 PM
  #444
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looks like the cryers shot their load verse the pens

back to reality for them

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02-21-2013, 08:20 PM
  #445
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looks like the cryers shot their load verse the pens

back to reality for them
4-0 to the Panthers so far. I guess it's hard to get motivated to play them. Also, I want Huberdeau on this team. He's sick.

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02-21-2013, 08:23 PM
  #446
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4-0 to the Panthers so far. I guess it's hard to get motivated to play them. Also, I want Huberdeau on this team. He's sick.
Nope... watch the game. Florida doesn't fall for Philly's BS play. They keep the nose down and keep fighting to get to the puck. I think they are +5 or so on PP's. They buried them and then kept a solid defensive structure.

All the things DB can't get this team to do.

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02-21-2013, 08:39 PM
  #447
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Nope... watch the game. Florida doesn't fall for Philly's BS play. They keep the nose down and keep fighting to get to the puck. I think they are +5 or so on PP's. They buried them and then kept a solid defensive structure.

All the things DB can't get this team to do.
You mean the same Panthers with the worst goal differential in the entire league?

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02-21-2013, 10:52 PM
  #448
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I simply cnt believe the amount of vitriol being spewed about Malkin and Letang in this thread. Just as I am having a difficult time with the Martin lovefest.
Yes, Malkin took another I'll advised penalty and no this wasn't his bestgame by a long shot....but really people?
In watching the game for the second time, I'll stand by my assessment of Sutter and perhaps Bennet as the only + players while the ones getting all of the superlatives (Crosby played "great"? I think we've all seen him play great and last night for damn sure doesn't fall into that category.... Martin and the Norris????) are two of my biggest minuses.
Meanwhile, for all the scrutiny Malkin received for his game, I am certainly not seeing passed on to the others. Talk about Martin looking lost (and losing Simmons) on Wayne's first goal. Or about the two great opportunities where he made a wise decision to jump into the play only to have his shot miss the net? Or doing little but standing around on the 4th?
And yes, I also realise that his shot on the point was converted into a goal by Malkin.
Or the several times where he turned it over in the defensive zone or even how he let his man get away from him only to stand right in front of TV and get a quality scoring chance.
Yet we nitpick on Letang, who made several skillful plays in moving the puck out of danger, who shot the puck on the net and yes, who was very good on the PK. And yes, he was definitely goaded into a dumb penalty for certain.
What about Sid's game? I've read about Malkins turnover leading to a breakaway yet I've failed to read about Sid doing the exact same thing which led to a 3 on 1 only four minutes into the game? Or about his several other turnovers both even strength and with the man advantage? Or about how his line failed to create much of anything at even strength yet was on the ice for 3 of the Flyers even strength goals?
All of this isn't said to pick on anybody, just meant to give some perspective of how the blame goes all around yet I'm seeing most of the focus on the undisciplined penalties (of which, the Flyers never scored on btw, even though I realize that isn't the point) or the poor play of a select few while others, apparently played "great".
With the possible exception of B.S. I'm of the opinion that no one played well, and plenty of guys played below what they should.
Put the same microscope on each individual rather than the group mentality speak I'm reading here, which for the most part isn't using the same standards of grading for each individual.
To the first bolded, if you notice, it's basically the same posters who are being overly critical of Malkin's play. And if you notice, these are the same posters who have nothing but praise for Crosby no matter what happens in the game. Personally, I've just put them on my ignore list rather than argue with them about it, since, for a lot of reasons it would be rather like trying to teach a pig to sing.

To the second bolded point, here's an interesting bit o' stats ... according to NHL.com, through 17 games, Crosby is credited with 15 GvA/9 TkA and Malkin is credited with 13 GvA/16 TkA.

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02-22-2013, 12:05 AM
  #449
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To the first bolded, if you notice, it's basically the same posters who are being overly critical of Malkin's play. And if you notice, these are the same posters who have nothing but praise for Crosby no matter what happens in the game. Personally, I've just put them on my ignore list rather than argue with them about it, since, for a lot of reasons it would be rather like trying to teach a pig to sing.

To the second bolded point, here's an interesting bit o' stats ... according to NHL.com, through 17 games, Crosby is credited with 15 GvA/9 TkA and Malkin is credited with 13 GvA/16 TkA.
I think Geno deserves high praise for his forecheck ability. He is one of the best in the league. Those takeaway stats do not indicate for one second his defensive zone play. As for the turnovers? They both are playing like it is their second season again. Very immature play. Sid does have a habit of doing it a little bit more, but he will also hustle back to try to make up for it.

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02-22-2013, 12:37 AM
  #450
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I think Geno deserves high praise for his forecheck ability. He is one of the best in the league. Those takeaway stats do not indicate for one second his defensive zone play. As for the turnovers? They both are playing like it is their second season again. Very immature play. Sid does have a habit of doing it a little bit more, but he will also hustle back to try to make up for it.
Malkin is a much more well rounded player than he's given credit for. Have to agree with you that they're both making mistakes that you wouldn't expect them to at this point in their careers. It's especially hard with Geno, having watched his games with MMg. But, to be fair, they're not the only ones not playing at the level you'd expect them to be playing at.

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