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Trade Rumours and Proposals: Part XXXV

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Old
02-27-2013, 11:23 AM
  #676
sensageddon
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I hear Latendresse has a poutine related injury.

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02-27-2013, 11:23 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
which is?
I'd only trade Spezza if we got another, younger, #1 center or potential #1 center.

And no, thats not easy.

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02-27-2013, 11:40 AM
  #678
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Phillips recovered a portion of his game last year, and has carried it over to this year.
There is no question however that prior to last year Phillips had fallen apart - he was absolutely brutal and i wouldnt have kept him if he were free.
In fact i was super pissed when we re-signed him.

He is a good bottom pairing guy IMO now.
I would not sign him again unless its as a spare 6/7 guy on a one 1 year deal, which i think would be difficult given his history here - making him a healthy scratch regularly might be problematic.

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02-27-2013, 11:46 AM
  #679
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Easy for some to forget that he wouldn't be playing those minutes with Karlsson and Cowen in the lineup. Convenient when people are railing on him all the time.
Not a question of what ifs, its about what is.

Phillips TOI has been fairly consistent all season, with or without Karlsson. One must assume if MacLean is giving Phillips ~20 minutes a game and the top minutes on the PK, then #4 is doing lots more right than wrong.

Had Cowen and Lundin not been injured, it is anyone's guess what the TOI for the D would look like, its pure guesswork.

One thing is for sure, AHL Dmen wouldn't have seen playing time in Ottawa, so most fans would still believe Boro was the best thing since sliced bread and Wiercoich and Gryba would never see the NHL.

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02-27-2013, 11:50 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Hope you aren't suggesting Gryba was ready for the NHL 2 years ago, because he definitely wasn't.

Rebuilding teams need veterans that have played the game at a high level to fill the mentorship/leadership roles.

While players like Phillips, Gonchar and Alfredsson may not be what they once were on the ice, they have been and are integral pieces in this rebuild.

Look no further than the Oilers, some of the best young talent in the game, but have been at or near the bottom of the league for years.
I mentioned that I was speaking in hindsight, so looking back we would be better off "this year" with having Gryba in Phillips spot and an extra higher end prospect from the trade of Phillips. In the end, it really makes little difference, as I stated.

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02-27-2013, 12:02 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I'd only trade Spezza if we got another, younger, #1 center or potential #1 center.

And no, thats not easy.
you trade Spezza if you can get another Yashin deal otherwise GTFO.
#2 pick and a dominant potential defenceman.


Florida - Kulikov, 1st rounder 2013
Colorado - EJ, 1st rounder 2013
Buffalo - Myers, 1st rounder 2013

and im not even sure id do those. (and i dont care if they wouldnt either)

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02-27-2013, 12:06 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
you trade Spezza if you can get another Yashin deal otherwise GTFO.
#2 pick and a dominant potential defenceman.


Florida - Kulikov, 1st rounder 2013
Colorado - EJ, 1st rounder 2013
Buffalo - Myers, 1st rounder 2013

and im not even sure id do those. (and i dont care if they wouldnt either)
For sure. Im not saying Spezza should be traded.

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02-27-2013, 12:20 PM
  #683
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People are just funny when it comes to Spezza. He's a special player and he's going to retire as a senator. I think that Spezz is so underrated and he really hasn't had an easy go of his career either. His numbers have always be affected by injuries - even his best career year he spent 3 months dealing with a back injury (the same one he has now). A healthy Spezza would of had three 100 point seasons. It's just funny that we have a guy who is perpetually injured and still has 621 points in 611 games and yet people are perpetually searching for ways to replace him.

Its also interesting when you consider his career numbers because nowadays its easier for Rookie 18 year olds in the league in the context that it's not like it was before the lockout - coaches now use this players with incredibly high offensive zone starts and inflate their numbers until they grow enough as a player to not need to be protected. Skill guys have a lot more room now too without clutch and grab. Guys like Spezza didn't have that - he was sent back in his first year and was given very little time in his first year NHL, benched in the playoffs because a coach didn't like him because he was a young offensive player. I think people think his talent level and vision should make him a 100+ point guy every year and the second he doesn't do that he's a disappointment and should be moved...

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02-27-2013, 12:34 PM
  #684
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Phillips recovered a portion of his game last year, and has carried it over to this year.
There is no question however that prior to last year Phillips had fallen apart - he was absolutely brutal and i wouldnt have kept him if he were free.
In fact i was super pissed when we re-signed him.

He is a good bottom pairing guy IMO now.
I would not sign him again unless its as a spare 6/7 guy on a one 1 year deal, which i think would be difficult given his history here - making him a healthy scratch regularly might be problematic.
In 2010-11 every Senator struggled.

That year Phillips lead the team in TOI, PK TOI and lead the D in hits and block shots. Yet the one thing people focused on, +/-, Phillips was a -35.

Considering the role Clouston had Phillips playing, the +/- shouldn't have been a surprise. Being used as the shutdown guy with partners like Carkner, Lee, and Hale in front of less than average goaltending, -35 might actually have been a good number.

Phillips ended up the scape goat for what was a poorly coached and under performing team. While Phillips didn't shine, IMO the conditions just weren't conducive to stellar play.

Obviously the ideal role for Phillips going forward is the 5/6 role. However MacLean isn't going to hand any player ice time just because the fans have an opinion. Phillips' TOI and role will be diminished when other players prove they can do the job better, its that simple.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but when it comes to Phillips it seems MacLean disagrees based on the TOI breakdown.


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02-27-2013, 12:43 PM
  #685
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People are just funny when it comes to Spezza. He's a special player and he's going to retire as a senator. I think that Spezz is so underrated and he really hasn't had an easy go of his career either. His numbers have always be affected by injuries - even his best career year he spent 3 months dealing with a back injury (the same one he has now). A healthy Spezza would of had three 100 point seasons. It's just funny that we have a guy who is perpetually injured and still has 621 points in 611 games and yet people are perpetually searching for ways to replace him.

Its also interesting when you consider his career numbers because nowadays its easier for Rookie 18 year olds in the league in the context that it's not like it was before the lockout - coaches now use this players with incredibly high offensive zone starts and inflate their numbers until they grow enough as a player to not need to be protected. Skill guys have a lot more room now too without clutch and grab. Guys like Spezza didn't have that - he was sent back in his first year and was given very little time in his first year NHL, benched in the playoffs because a coach didn't like him because he was a young offensive player. I think people think his talent level and vision should make him a 100+ point guy every year and the second he doesn't do that he's a disappointment and should be moved...
This fanbase is just like every other fanbase when it comes to player evaluations.

The players over there are always better than the players here, with a few exceptions.


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02-27-2013, 12:48 PM
  #686
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i didnt need to focus on his stats. i watched him play, his play declined for a number of years and the 2010-2011 season was the bottom of the barrel.
HE was atrocious, absolutely abysmal.
Wouldnt compete, awful decisions.
Terrible, terrible, terrible.

He's much better now but IMO still not better than a bottom pairing guy, who can elevate from time to time.
He has a poor shot, poor passes, poor vision, not that great a skater.

When he plays physical and intense he's still a solid contributor.

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Old
02-27-2013, 12:54 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
i didnt need to focus on his stats. i watched him play, his play declined for a number of years and the 2010-2011 season was the bottom of the barrel.
HE was atrocious, absolutely abysmal.
Wouldnt compete, awful decisions.
Terrible, terrible, terrible.

He's much better now but IMO still not better than a bottom pairing guy, who can elevate from time to time.
He has a poor shot, poor passes, poor vision, not that great a skater.

When he plays physical and intense he's still a solid contributor.
Then you weren't watching very closely, because Phillips played quite well in the years leading up to 2010/11 and has since.

While I do agree stats don't tell the whole story, TOI is the one stat that is indicative of how the coach feels about performance.

This judgement is made by watching the games live, then analyzing and dissecting video for hours.

A coach understands where the breakdowns occurred and who was responsible, fans typically blame the player they least like.

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02-27-2013, 01:12 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by R2010 View Post
People are just funny when it comes to Spezza. He's a special player and he's going to retire as a senator. I think that Spezz is so underrated and he really hasn't had an easy go of his career either. His numbers have always be affected by injuries - even his best career year he spent 3 months dealing with a back injury (the same one he has now). A healthy Spezza would of had three 100 point seasons. It's just funny that we have a guy who is perpetually injured and still has 621 points in 611 games and yet people are perpetually searching for ways to replace him.

Its also interesting when you consider his career numbers because nowadays its easier for Rookie 18 year olds in the league in the context that it's not like it was before the lockout - coaches now use this players with incredibly high offensive zone starts and inflate their numbers until they grow enough as a player to not need to be protected. Skill guys have a lot more room now too without clutch and grab. Guys like Spezza didn't have that - he was sent back in his first year and was given very little time in his first year NHL, benched in the playoffs because a coach didn't like him because he was a young offensive player. I think people think his talent level and vision should make him a 100+ point guy every year and the second he doesn't do that he's a disappointment and should be moved...

Completely agree, all i could do was laugh over hearing many fans on the way out of the Habs game monday (a game we had no business being in, and likely one of the luckiest of all time) claiming, "see the team doesnt need spezza" "Ottawa should just cut Spezza" ....all of this after we had just witnessed a performance where we were outshot 2-1 were hemmed in our own end quite a bit and got lucky with a fluke goal and 4 posts for, not to mention it was a late shootout victory lol....good old Ottawa!

Ive given up this debate after many attempts using footage, stats, reason etc...some people are so stubborn they will never change there opinions even when they know there wrong...we all know someone like this!

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02-27-2013, 01:21 PM
  #689
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It would be kind of interesting to see what Spezza could have become if he was brought up in today's NHL. All the talent in the world, not having to worry about a coach holding him back due to personality and hockey differences...giving him almost nothing but offensive zone starts and all the opportunity to excel offensively.

What's even more amazing is that despite what has transpired in his career he has become one of the best offensive players in the league, a two-way capable centre and the backbone of our team.

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02-27-2013, 01:24 PM
  #690
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Spezza just needs one true #1 winger who is a threat on his own. If not Perry, then probably nothing for a while sadly.

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02-27-2013, 01:37 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
A coach understands where the breakdowns occurred and who was responsible, fans typically blame the player they least like.
This is interesting. Because if you have a kid playing hockey, a lot of the time, the fathers of the kids on the ice all feel that their kid shat the bed on any play where the other team scores.

Most often, it's one tiny mistake where one person gets out of position and then that leads to the other 4 skaters going somewhere they shouldn't as well. In the end, it's a team game and really, really hard to assign blame.
People look at that 2010-11 season and crap all over Phillips. But really, there was a lot happening out there on the ice. And off.

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02-27-2013, 01:38 PM
  #692
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I kinda passed them up when thinking about it, but is there any chance that Murray has kicked tires with New Jersey? They could use Bishop for sure and he would fit well with their defensive style.

I would move Bishop to NJ with a deal centered around Urbom.

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02-27-2013, 02:14 PM
  #693
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I kinda passed them up when thinking about it, but is there any chance that Murray has kicked tires with New Jersey? They could use Bishop for sure and he would fit well with their defensive style.

I would move Bishop to NJ with a deal centered around Urbom.
Urbom is a great prospect and we'd be lucky to have him.

However we also have the following prospects/players who also shoot left who are ready to play in the NHL or already playing for the team:

Methot
Cowen
Phillips
Lundin (Possibly gone next year)
Wiercioch
Boro
Andre Benoit (Possibly gone next year)

Gonchar (shoots left but plays right and will be gone next year so I didn't count him)

That's 5-7 guys for 3 spots. You want to add even more. Even if everything works out and Lundin , Gonchar, and Benoit are let go, we'd still have 5 guys for 3 spots (4 spots if you include 7th D) and you want to add another guy to the logjam?

Wier seems to be about the only one I'd trust to move to right.

About the only way it makes Sens (to me) is if we lose one of them (Wier seems the most likely) in a trade for a guy like ROR and we replace him with Urbom, even then we'd still have to stash one in the AHL in case of injuries and I don't think any of them still have Waivers eligibility.

I guess we could keep 8 "d" all season, but that seems a touch extreme as well.

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02-27-2013, 02:15 PM
  #694
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Then you weren't watching very closely, because Phillips played quite well in the years leading up to 2010/11 and has since.

While I do agree stats don't tell the whole story, TOI is the one stat that is indicative of how the coach feels about performance.

This judgement is made by watching the games live, then analyzing and dissecting video for hours.

A coach understands where the breakdowns occurred and who was responsible, fans typically blame the player they least like.
Do you think 2008 chris Phillips was as good as 2007 Chris Phillips?
Do you think 2009 chris Phillips was as physical as he was previously?
Was someone else making his passes, not hitting guys and skating slower in 2010 ?
His plummet off the cliff in 2010 was, during a poor year for all involved, the single most horrible performance on the team by a country mile and ill include Elliot.

Do you think he's the same player he was in 2007? of course he isnt. he's not even close.

He gets decent TOI now because LOOK AT THE REST OF THE D.
A stud, an aging offensive dman and 5 guys who may someday be full time NHLers.

Methot
Gonchar
Gryba
Benoit
Weircoch
Boro
Lundin

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02-27-2013, 02:21 PM
  #695
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Urbom is a great prospect and we'd be lucky to have him.

However we also have the following prospects/players who also shoot left who are ready to play in the NHL or already playing for the team:

Methot
Cowen
Phillips
Lundin (Possibly gone next year)
Wiercioch
Boro
Andre Benoit (Possibly gone next year)

Gonchar (shoots left but plays right and will be gone next year so I didn't count him)

That's 5-7 guys for 3 spots. You want to add even more. Even if everything works out and Lundin , Gonchar, and Benoit are let go, we'd still have 5 guys for 3 spots (4 spots if you include 7th D) and you want to add another guy to the logjam?

Wier seems to be about the only one I'd trust to move to right.

About the only way it makes Sens (to me) is if we lose one of them (Wier seems the most likely) in a trade for a guy like ROR and we replace him with Urbom, even then we'd still have to stash one in the AHL in case of injuries and I don't think any of them still have Waivers eligibility.

I guess we could keep 8 "d" all season, but that seems a touch extreme as well.
It would definitely give some flexibility if Colorado really is looking for a defenceman that can play now.

Zibanejad + Wierchioch for O'Reilly
Bishop for Urbom and a 2nd/3rd

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02-27-2013, 02:43 PM
  #696
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Phillips has been terrible all year at getting the puck out of our own end. Who cares if he plays physical or blocks shots when the team is trapped in the zone the entire time he's on the ice?

He's a great veteran guy, but watching him play, he's simply a liability out there compared to the other pairings.

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02-27-2013, 02:50 PM
  #697
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It would be kind of interesting to see what Spezza could have become if he was brought up in today's NHL. All the talent in the world, not having to worry about a coach holding him back due to personality and hockey differences...giving him almost nothing but offensive zone starts and all the opportunity to excel offensively.

What's even more amazing is that despite what has transpired in his career he has become one of the best offensive players in the league, a two-way capable centre and the backbone of our team.
I think Ryan Nugent Hopkins and Spezza are pretty similar and will have pretty similar careers though Spezza is bigger and right handed giving him an edge. He has even said before that Spezz was one of his favorite players. Most other years Spezza would of been #1 overall but both him and Kovalchuk have been special players.

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02-27-2013, 02:52 PM
  #698
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I think Ryan Nugent Hopkins and Spezza are pretty similar and will have pretty similar careers though Spezza is bigger and right handed giving him an edge. He has even said before that Spezz was one of his favorite players. Most other years Spezza would of been #1 overall but both him and Kovalchuk have been special players.
RNH is nowhere near what Spezza was, or is. Spezza is far and away the more talented player and was at the same age, too.

I still think that RNH has the talent of a 2nd line centre that can be a pp specialist.

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02-27-2013, 03:16 PM
  #699
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RNH is better than a 2nd line center. He's slumping a little but he'll pick back up.

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02-27-2013, 03:18 PM
  #700
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RNH is better than a 2nd line center. He's slumping a little but he'll pick back up.
I think he has the talent to play on the first line, but I don't think he'll ever be a 'true' #1 centre. I think he would be ideal as a 2nd line centre. He has the benefit of not needing to be though. Between the powerplay and his line-mates he should still produce very well.

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