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Winger Acquisition Thread | Part V: Wingers in the Hands of an Angry (Hockey) God

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Old
02-25-2013, 11:33 AM
  #676
Flat Stanley
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Originally Posted by Guins71 View Post
It amazes me the amount of hype kulemin gets on this board. He has had one very good year. People assume his game will translate the same with Malkin as it does overseas, however the game is played differently over there. I always worry when a guy fluctuates so much with goal scoring because I think the ability might be there but committment maybe not
It's not about his stats, it's his overall style of play. He's solid away from the puck, he's gritty, he's a good defensive forward. He can help create space for Malkin and Neal, and he also has a pretty good shot, so if Malkin or Neal can find Kulemin, he can bury it.

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Old
02-25-2013, 11:41 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Honestly, I don't see why Toronto would trade him, but Kulemin would be the ideal acquisition. If the Penguins think Bennett has learned enough from the AHL, and he will only improve his game at the NHL level, then we would only need 1 winger.

Bennett is a natural RW, Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis is a decent 3rd line.

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Kulemin-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Kennedy being part of the package for Kulemin to clear salary and a roster spot.
Here's why - and I didn't see this scenario happening 2 weeks ago:

1) Lupul and Frattin are out.

2) Kessel and JVR are surefire top-6 guys.

3) Bozak is a de facto top-6 center because of his chemistry with Kessel. On top of that, he's *actually* been pretty good this year.

4) Kadri is a top-6 player.

5) Grabovski's line, of which Kulemin is a part, has been reduced to a checking line. Kamarov, also on that line, is bringing basically what Kulemin is currently bringing - defensively sound, physical play, with not a lot of offensive production - for less.

6) Frattin will 100% go back with Kadri. It's not a sure thing that Lupul goes back with Kessel simply because of how good JVR - Bozak - Kessel has been. If he doesn't, Lupul may go with Kadri, but they've been keeping "physical" guys on the scoring lines, so we could see a situation where Lupul is forced down to Grabo's line (or JVR, I suppose).

7) Randy Carlyle is not the kind of coach who will load his lineup with top-6 guys. He likes having Colton Orr and Komarov and Mike Brown types play.

8) So long story long: there are too many wingers. Even if they move MacArthur - the obvious first choice - they still probably have too many. Add in the fact that they DO have holes, Kulemin has better value than Mac, and you can see a very real scenario where Kulemin is moved.

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Old
02-25-2013, 11:46 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Honestly, I don't see why Toronto would trade him, but Kulemin would be the ideal acquisition. If the Penguins think Bennett has learned enough from the AHL, and he will only improve his game at the NHL level, then we would only need 1 winger.

Bennett is a natural RW, Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis is a decent 3rd line.

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Kulemin-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Kennedy being part of the package for Kulemin to clear salary and a roster spot.
If Pens got Kulemin, say Niskanen+TK for Kulemin, we'd have like 10M left to spend. What Vet Dman would we then target? Regehr? 4M cap hit, UFA at seasons end. Not sure what side Regehr plays, though. He'd probably play the bottom 6 right side beside Eng.

Letang-Despres
Martin-Orpik
Eng-Regehr
Bort
Eaton?

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Old
02-25-2013, 11:51 AM
  #679
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okay, heard the audio, not nearly as juicy as I thought (i had only caught the tail end of it live).

Basically Gord Stellick (former Leafs GM) said that Kulemin has "made their decision easy for them" when Lupul and Frattin return.

Read into that what you will.

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Old
02-25-2013, 11:54 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
okay, heard the audio, not nearly as juicy as I thought (i had only caught the tail end of it live).

Basically Gord Stellick (former Leafs GM) said that Kulemin has "made their decision easy for them" when Lupul and Frattin return.

Read into that what you will.
Means Kessel+Kulemin will be a Penguin for cheap.

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Old
02-25-2013, 12:18 PM
  #681
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Watching the game last night made me realize how badly we do need another winger. At least one. Because Kunitz-X-Neal just needs to be a line, either way. That line just works too well. Trying to spread out the talent hurts the whole unit.

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Old
02-25-2013, 12:19 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Means Kessel+Kulemin will be a Penguin for cheap.


Don't make fun of me

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Old
02-25-2013, 12:57 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
What does the bolded mean? Are you implying that Kunitz-Sid-Neal is superior to Kunitz-Malkin-Neal based on one game? That would be absurd given how well the line with Geno performed last year.
Yep. Sid is a more dominant board player which elevates Kuni's game and allows Neal to make plays in open ice. Also will spend more time in the offensive zone with Sid's play away from the puck and f/o ability.

Geno needs a consistently great board player and defensive presence. Which is why a guy like Kulemin will mesh very well with him.

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Old
02-25-2013, 01:23 PM
  #684
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If Toronto continues asking for a #1 for Kulemin, he can stay there. I'm beginning to think that we value Niskanen more than Despres and that Simon might be our big ticket item in a trade. If so, I hope he follows Horace Greeley's advice....Go West young man, Go West!

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02-25-2013, 01:23 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Yep. Sid is a more dominant board player which elevates Kuni's game and allows Neal to make plays in open ice. Also will spend more time in the offensive zone with Sid's play away from the puck and f/o ability.

Geno needs a consistently great board player and defensive presence. Which is why a guy like Kulemin will mesh very well with him.
Then I just disagree. There is very little evidence that Kunitz-Crosby-Neal is better than Kunitz-Geno-Neal. To make a definitive statement like that after one game (where Neal really didn't do much) is pretty silly.

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Old
02-25-2013, 01:38 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Then I just disagree. There is very little evidence that Kunitz-Crosby-Neal is better than Kunitz-Geno-Neal. To make a definitive statement like that after one game (where Neal really didn't do much) is pretty silly.
IMO, I think those three will bring the best out of one another. It'll also be a line that can go up against another top line b/c of Sid's play in his own end. We'll see what happens when Geno's back. Ill bet at the very least DB's decision will be very difficult.

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Old
02-25-2013, 01:42 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by SprootsMasterFlex View Post
Ideally, I'd like to see Shero get Kulemin to play on Malkin's left, Seto to play on Sid's right, and Dupuis replacing BearManPig on the 3rd line next to Sutter. I really liked Sutter-Cooke-Dupuis yesterday night.

I would sort of like this, as well, but the question is: what is the asking price? If the price is only Maatta straight up, or TK + 3rd rounder, then sure -- pull the trigger on that deal, depending on how much the Pens like him and if they think he'll truly have a SUSTAINED renaissance here or be a flash in the pan. Let's remember: Setoguchi is a UFA after next season, so I'd be careful about how much I give up for him. Maybe we wait till the summer (to not force our young guys), and then pull off an Orpik swap for Setoguchi or Stewart.

But again, I think we need ONE winger; and while two wingers would be nice, it's definitely not essentially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Honestly, I don't see why Toronto would trade him, but Kulemin would be the ideal acquisition. If the Penguins think Bennett has learned enough from the AHL, and he will only improve his game at the NHL level, then we would only need 1 winger.

Bennett is a natural RW, Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis is a decent 3rd line.

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Kulemin-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Kennedy being part of the package for Kulemin to clear salary and a roster spot.

We don't have to clear salary space for next season, and having TK for depth could be good. Also, Kulemin can play RW or LW, so I would say the first guy to come out of the line-up should be Kennedy, but I don't mind keeping him for depth (if we have room on the 23-man roster), or trading him in another deal (he'll garner a mid-round pick by himself, based on effort, speed, past production, and Stanley Cup/Playoff experience).

Regarding Bennett: it remains to be seen whether he is actually better at RW or LW in the NHL. I suspect it will be LW, because I like how he can see the ice from that side and be open for one-timers. But we've got time to make this decision. But with Dupuis moving to RW, and even Cooke being able to play RW, there's many different possibilities. Let's just get the best personnel, and then make the decisions on who should play where, and with whom. (Setoguchi is a more of a pure RW, however)

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Old
02-25-2013, 01:44 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
If Pens got Kulemin, say Niskanen+TK for Kulemin, we'd have like 10M left to spend. What Vet Dman would we then target? Regehr? 4M cap hit, UFA at seasons end. Not sure what side Regehr plays, though. He'd probably play the bottom 6 right side beside Eng.

Letang-Despres
Martin-Orpik
Eng-Regehr
Bort
Eaton?
Niskanen alone is worth more than Kulemin. Kulemin is not worth more than a 2nd or a middle prospect like Samuelsen or Blueger plus a later pick. If TOR wants more than that for a Chris Kunitz who doesn't produce, they won't be moving him.

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Old
02-25-2013, 01:50 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by thecore View Post
Niskanen alone is worth more than Kulemin. Kulemin is not worth more than a 2nd or a middle prospect like Samuelsen or Blueger plus a later pick. If TOR wants more than that for a Chris Kunitz who doesn't produce, they won't be moving him.
I agree with this, but Toronto is not going to trade Kulemin for a non-roster player right now when they're in a playoff spot. Jeffrey? Yes (though I'm high on DJ, so I'd rather give someone else, but would do that if it made Geno/Sid happy). Kennedy? Sure, he'd be a good roster player for them. Perhaps Kennedy + 3rd rounder or mid-tier prospect (i.e. Rust, Hanowski, D'Agostino or something).

And I agree about Niskanen. I'd prefer to keep our depth on D, but I would move Nisky for a big-time player up front (ROR, etc.), or ELITE prospect (Coyle/Niederreiter/etc) . While I think Kulemin can be an elite player here (or at least much better numbers than he's been putting up in Toronto), moving Nisky for him would be Risky. Man...can't believe I just did that. Here's to you, Ron McLean

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Old
02-25-2013, 02:02 PM
  #690
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Would Niskanen even help Toronto?

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Old
02-25-2013, 02:10 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Would Niskanen even help Toronto?
I don't think he would. They've already got an abundance of quantity. What they're lacking is top end quality, which as good as he's been, Niskanen isn't.

They've recently been sitting John-Michael Liles and Mike Komisarek, and will eventually have Jake Gardiner back. Combined with their current 6-man defense unit, that's 9 NHL defensemen on the roster. Adding Niskanen doesn't really make sense for them.

The last game, they were running Phaneuf/Holzer, Fraser/Franson, Gunnarson/Kostka. I think they want Holzer's defensive steadiness next to Phaneuf, and the Franson/Fraser duo has some ridiculous +/- at the moment, so the only potential place Niskanen would upgrade is Kostka's spot. I'm not sure the Leafs feel they need to upgrade that spot badly enough to trade a chip like Kulemin.

IMO, if the Leafs do deal Kulemin, it'll cost heavy in draft pick/prospects, not in current roster players.

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Old
02-25-2013, 02:11 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Would Niskanen even help Toronto?
Yes and no. Yes, he'd be good enough to crack their top-6, but no, they already have too many good NHL DMen to the point that it's preventing Jake Gardiner from getting NHL minutes.

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Old
02-25-2013, 02:18 PM
  #693
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One guy to keep an eye on is Ryane Clowe. He's on the last year of his contract and the Sharks look like a team that is fading.

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02-25-2013, 02:57 PM
  #694
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I would love Clowe here. I like that toughness. Like a kunitz+vitale combo in my eyes. Someone takes a shot at Sid, Clowe would be right up in their faces stating his disagreement with it.

Would love Clowe and Seto here.

Clowe-Crosby-Seto
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis

That's a good top 9. Good combo of speed, skill, and grit.

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Old
02-25-2013, 03:05 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
I would love Clowe here. I like that toughness. Like a kunitz+vitale combo in my eyes. Someone takes a shot at Sid, Clowe would be right up in their faces stating his disagreement with it.

Would love Clowe and Seto here.

Clowe-Crosby-Seto
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis

That's a good top 9. Good combo of speed, skill, and grit.
Looks like someone is making deals on nhl13....

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Old
02-25-2013, 03:07 PM
  #696
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im just saying i wish anaheim wasnt winning, so maybe things would be different with the status of perry
His status has less to do with how well they're playing than the fact that he's a great player and they're trying to build a good team with mostly younger players so they can afford Perry and Getzlaf.

He's a pipe dream / worse odds than we had in 2008 of getting Hossa. Because ATL sucked, had an idiot for a GM and was generally falling apart as a franchise. I'd be happy to overpay for the guy but it probably won't happen.


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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Damien Brunner with 2 goals + 2 assists tonight, giving him 10 goals on the season. Imagine him on this team instead of TK.
I can't really get behind the Brunner vibe... hindsight is 20/20. He was a risky play and he worked out for the Wings and not 29 other teams who would all like to have him today on his salary. Good for the Wings then; give them credit.


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Originally Posted by cheesedanish87 View Post
I like Kulemin as a good 3rd line player just dont see him as a top 6 player and dont think hes worth 2.8 million.
I would happily give all of TK's $2M to Kulemin so he can be a net $800K expense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Yea Kulemin is a substantial upgrade over what we have as a top 6 winger. He's just stuck on a not so offensive Leafs team.
That said... I don't completely buy this routine at this point. He's had enough good players around him and enough shifts with the top line over the last couple years that he should've produced more. That's not in dispute IMO. But either way it's likely his game would mesh well with Malkin and Neal. We wouldn't need him to light up the score sheet, just be consistently better than the plugs we've out out there so far and prior to last year when Kunitz played LW (Bennett not withstanding).


Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
In terms of offensive tools, Kulemin has more of them than some of the wingers this board has on the top of their lists as "must get" or "ideal".
Which ones, specifically?

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Old
02-25-2013, 03:22 PM
  #697
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I can't really get behind the Brunner vibe... hindsight is 20/20. He was a risky play and he worked out for the Wings and not 29 other teams who would all like to have him today on his salary. Good for the Wings then; give them credit.
No risk at all. Not for owners with deep pockets. This is a player who could be "loaned" back to Europe, sent down to the minors or traded.

But let's look at Detroit: best management and scouting departments in the NHL? If not "yes sir", they are damn near close to the top. They didn't have a problem taking the risk. If we have that kind of confidence in our scouting department, we shouldn't either. Pens were 2nd in the running behind DET, so I don't think it's an issue of risk or unwillingness. It's just that Pens were tighter against the cap, and perhaps were too confident by putting all their eggs in the Zach Parise/Ryan Suter basket and didn't have the cap space to do all 3, and it scared them off. Instead, we got stood up like a telephone poll with nothing to show for it.

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02-25-2013, 03:24 PM
  #698
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I just meant risk in the no one knew how he'd play in the NHL sense. Pesonen 2.0 for all we knew.

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02-25-2013, 03:26 PM
  #699
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post

Which ones, specifically?
Clowe for one.

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Old
02-25-2013, 04:06 PM
  #700
jmelm
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I just meant risk in the no one knew how he'd play in the NHL sense. Pesonen 2.0 for all we knew.

Still don't see the risk. No risk, no reward. We've got rich owners with deep pockets, and a big whole on the wings -- especially for those with right-handed shots.

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