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Will we ever see a better player than Gretzky? Will we know it?

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03-08-2013, 05:55 PM
  #476
SaintPatrick33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Why Fedorov? I do not have to give you reasons. Please ask Gretzky, ask Scottie Bowman.

Here are the quotes:

Heaven on Ice: Ray Sheppard's Life in Hockey - page 228:

During the 199394 NHL season, being interviewed before his game, Gretzky was talking about a 17 December match between the Detroit Red Wings and New York Rangers, and said "he had never seen a player dominate the game the way Sergei did'".

Scottie Bowman said in 2009:

"I talked to Wayne Gretzky about that six or seven years ago and he said to me: 'I couldn't play forward and defence. Mario couldn't do it. Jagr couldn't play defense. But Sergei could. He was a hell of a player'."
I'm not really worried about whether I'm being rude or not, but if you throw out 100 names to Wayne Gretzky he'll say "He's the best ever" for each one.

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03-08-2013, 05:57 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
"I talked to Wayne Gretzky about that six or seven years ago and he said to me: 'I couldn't play forward and defence. Mario couldn't do it. Jagr couldn't play defense. But Sergei could. He was a hell of a player'."
Oh, almost forgot.....Rick Chartraw played both forward and defenseman on Gretzky's own Oiler team in the '80s. Dang, 'Ol Charty must have been better than Gretz

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03-08-2013, 06:55 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post


There's a lot of superstars, HHOFers on this list.

There's overwhelming evidence of this separation from other players, at all levels, minor hockey, junior, NHL, international, NHL playoffs.

You can slice numbers and eras and talk about systems and equipment and even ignore what the eyes tell you. But when the numbers are this consistently overwhelming, suggest that Gretzky would not dominate today is pretty laughable.
So pro rated over 84 games Wayne is a 148 point guy and Makarov is a 118 point one.

Doesn't tell us more than what we already knew, Wayne dominated the Canada Cup/World Cup scene.

One could comment on Makarov not being the most successful guy in the NHL but that's neither true or relevant to how players form the 80's would perform in the post lockout era.

The bottom line is that it's harder to score today than before the high flying 80's and we simply do not know how any players scoring rates would transfer over.

If people can't account for this vast difference and the fact that the NHL is now full of the best players from Europe and the states, both in terms of quality and quantity, then sure Wayne's dominance does look on the surface to have more meaning and impact.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 03-08-2013 at 07:04 PM.
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Old
03-08-2013, 09:13 PM
  #479
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Gretzky was a combination of inborn talent and utterly extreme dedication to the sport and practice. Honestly, I believe children today have too many distractions to be able to give hockey the countless hours Gretzky did.

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03-08-2013, 09:18 PM
  #480
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only if goalie equipment shrinks dramatically.

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03-09-2013, 12:04 AM
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Why Fedorov? I do not have to give you reasons. Please ask Gretzky, ask Scottie Bowman.

Here are the quotes:

Heaven on Ice: Ray Sheppard's Life in Hockey - page 228:

During the 199394 NHL season, being interviewed before his game, Gretzky was talking about a 17 December match between the Detroit Red Wings and New York Rangers, and said "he had never seen a player dominate the game the way Sergei did'".

Scottie Bowman said in 2009:

"I talked to Wayne Gretzky about that six or seven years ago and he said to me: 'I couldn't play forward and defence. Mario couldn't do it. Jagr couldn't play defense. But Sergei could. He was a hell of a player'."
Fair enough, you like that he could play both. But you also said Lemieux was better, which is the point I was making originally. If you like Fedorov's 2 way game, Lemieux was worse defensively than Gretzky even. If you are judging by offense, Fedorov is no where near Gretzky's level. Either way, you're picking and choosing your arguments to suit your needs.

Lots of players were better than Wayne defensively, but that doesn't mean they were better players. And all those guys who were better than Wayne defensively were also better than Lemieux defensively. Again, that doesn't mean they were better. Fedorov had a few seasons where he was really good. Gretzky had 6 years where he averaged 200+ points, a 10 year span where he averaged 180+ points, and another really great decade of post-prime hockey that would have been a HHOF career even if he hadn't won 9 Harts in the 80's. He has led or tied the league in points 11 times. That's as many as Lemieux and Jagr put together.

As for going by what Gretzky says about other players, I wouldn't take that too seriously. He says a lot of really nice things about guys. He said Ovechkin could break his 92 goal scoring record, and that Crosby might threaten many of his records as well. Does anyone actually think he was right about that?

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03-09-2013, 02:36 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Gerry Perreault at #10, huh?

Anyway, it just shows that Gilbert Perreault was a beast in those 2 Canada Cups he played (and only a few games in the 1981 tournament, no less), which my eye test confirms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Nobody can watch that series and suggest the level of play isn't far and away above what we see on the ice today. The speed, skill level and competitiveness on the ice is the best hockey I've ever seen. And even in that context, it's quite impressive how much Gretzky and Lemieux outshine the other superstars.
Well, someone very defensive-minded could suggest that. But I'm certainly glad that both Canada and USSR were thinking mostly offense in 1987.


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03-09-2013, 09:36 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
1. You're exaggerating. Since Gretzky left the Oilers, Messier got more Hart trophies than him. The Oilers won the Cup without Gretzky. Gretzky couldn't win the Cup without the Oilers.

2. Lemieux outscored Gretzky several times starting from 1987-88. Many people consider Mario a greater player than the Great One.

3. Gretzky had ONLY ONE game against the Soviets in which you can say he dominated - game 2 of the Canada Cup finals 1987 (five assists, thanks to Lemieux who was able to convert his passes).
In other years, in the crucial contests versus the Russians, Gretzky was not that impressive:
1981 final - absolute zero
1984 semi - one assist

Please, be nice.
Man, I am sorry but which player in NHL history do you want on your team in all those Canada Cups? Gretzky led the 1981, 1984, 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups in scoring. He led the Canadian 1996 World Cup team in scoring. Only once he played in the Olympics (4 assists in 6 games) did he start to look mortal. Let's recap a bit here:

1981 Canada Cup:
vs. Finland - 2 goals 1a, vs. USA 2g 2a, vs. Czech 0 points, vs. Sweden 1a, vs. Soviets 1g 2a, vs. USA 1a, vs. Soviets (final) 0 points

1984 Canada Cup:
vs. W.Germany 2g 2a, vs. USA 0 points, vs. Sweden 0 points, vs. Czech 1a, vs. Soviets 2a, vs. Soviets 1a, vs. Sweden (finals games) 1g 2a. vs. Sweden 1g

1987 Canada Cup:
vs. Czechs 2a, vs. Finland 0 points, vs. USA 2a, vs. Sweden 1g 3a, vs. Soviets 1g 1a, vs. Czechs (semis) 2a, vs. Soviets (final games) 1g 1a, vs. Soviets 5a, vs. Soviets 2a

1991 Canada Cup
vs. Finland 0 points, vs. USA 1g 3a, vs. Sweden 3a, vs. Czech 2g 1a, vs. Russia 0 points, vs. Sweden (semis) 1g, vs. USA 1a, vs. USA (injured)

So just wondering where it was that Gretzky choked? 1981 the entire team played poorly not just Gretzky in that final game. He led the tournament in scoring all 4 of those times I mentioned. He was brilliant in all the crucial games. The greatest game a human being possibly ever played was Gretzky in Game 2 against the Russians in 1987. 5 assists doesn't even explain it. He was all over the ice. There is a pass he made on the Gilmour goal that to this day I don't even know how it got there. Gretzky was skating around center ice with a few Russians circling him and somehow he made (what I think) was a backhand pass to Rochefort breaking into the zone who then fed Gilmour for the goal. How in the world he saw Rochefort is beyond me. An example like that is exactly the kind of thing that Gretzky did all the time and is why he would dominate any era.

Also, the whole idea that Messier won two Cups after Gretzky compared to 0 is very much one sided. Gretzky walked into a terrible Kings team in 1988 and in his first playoff series unseated the defending Cup champs - the Oilers. The next year they unseated the Cup champs again. In 1993 he took the Kings to the final and had 40 points. Only one player, Lemieux, has more playoff points in a season than Gretzky did in 1993 and those weren't even his two best.

It is no shame to have Mario Lemieux beat you for the scoring title by the way, especially after you've been in the NHL for 10 years. You disregard the fact that no one else could do this for a decade for whatever reason. Plus Gretzky had three more Art Rosses after Lemieux beat him the first time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
Sure he was that good, I've seen him play. I understand your point about coaching, but there is no way you can compare the coaching from the 70s, 80s or 90s to today. Yes a guy like Arbour or Keenan had a damned good gameplan written up to stop Gretzky, but it's a lot easier to do now with the systems and improved goaltending than it was back then. I just feel that the game is drastically different. Too much of an emphasis on defense first from everyone that a guy like Gretzky never gets a chance to put up his gaudy numbers. That doesn't mean he doesn't still dominate though. I think he is the best player in today's NHL by a large margin.

Its just that today rushes are stymied instantly. Everyone backchecks hard now, because if you don't someone who does will take your job. Goaltenders are bigger, faster, and have improved their technique to the point where if you give up 1 in every 10 shots you're a below average goalie. That would have been among the very best in the league (probably by a decent margin to boot) when Wayne was playing. You can't just say Wayne would get a ridiculous amount of point totals now because he did back then. You have to adjust your view and take what he did with a grain of salt and a good dose of reality.

It's like saying we could transplant Gretzky back to the 20s before forward passes were allowed and he would still get 200 points. It just doesn't seem kosher to me.
Well for starters I am not transplanting a 1980s Wayne into today's game. I am transplanting the same Gretzky with the same mindset as a player who grew up at the same time as today's players. I think you are overrating things incredibly about how much the game has changed. Gretzky played at his own pace and went to the beat of his own drum. He could slow the game down to any level that he liked. Watch a guy like Lemieux and if you wonder why he had so much time to do his thing there is a reason. He created that time. Mario almost looked like he was doing things in slow motion all the time and yet he'd score or make a pretty pass. Or a guy like Messier. Why did it seem like he had free will on the ice? Well, he created that room from years and years of ferocious play. Messier certainly didn't have the talent of Lemieux or Gretzky but it is just another example of how great players always seem to be the central focus when they are on the ice.

Look, we've seen some lovely goals in the NHL in this shortened year. Look at that spinorama from Chara, the end to end rush from Datsyuk, the lovely goal Toews scored against Colorado the splitting the defense move from Malkin against Tampa the other night, etc, etc. Just like the 1980s, the best players still can make defenses look foolish. And just like in the 1980s there is always a plan to stop them.

Now, think about that and then imagine the multi point games that Malkin or Crosby always seem to get. Or about Ovechkin, when he WAS Ovechkin, how he somehow managed to burst down the left wing, cut in the middle and wrist a hard shot over the goaltender's shoulders. Everyone knew he was going to do this and the goalie and opposing defenseman couldn't stop him. Why couldn't anyone figure out Hull's one time shot? Or why hasn't anyone figured out Stamkos yet? Coaching and goaltending are incredible today and yet the best players still go above and beyond. The more things change the more they stay the same.

I just think we are so far removed from Gretzky's era now that it is becoming easier and easier to dismiss it because we expect to see a player like that again. We probably won't, which is what made it so amazing back then. All the players in today's game still get their points and yet none of them are the player Gretzky was. Crosby is on pace (and I use the word "pace" a little loosely) for about 130 in a full season. It is not crazy to me to suggest Gretzky gets 180-190 in today's game perhaps still peaking at 200.


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Old
03-09-2013, 10:47 AM
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Assuming ice hockey remains a popular participated sport in enough regions, yes ....

His numbers and records may well stand for a very very very very long time as a product of his generation and environment, but it is absolutely ignorant to say a player won't reach the subjective, visual, competitive and peer domination that Gretzky achieved at same point.
In 100 years time, assuming the sport is still played a semi large scale, there is no way the top 4 GOAT list is not different.
i would agree. Wilt Chamberlain's numbers were not matched, but Jordan dominated more. like i said earlier, when a Lebron plays hockey, he may be considered the greatest. but, he has to dominate, head and shoulders above the pack, for a decade. That, and win at least 3 championships.

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03-09-2013, 12:25 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Well for starters I am not transplanting a 1980s Wayne into today's game. I am transplanting the same Gretzky with the same mindset as a player who grew up at the same time as today's players. I think you are overrating things incredibly about how much the game has changed. Gretzky played at his own pace and went to the beat of his own drum. He could slow the game down to any level that he liked. Watch a guy like Lemieux and if you wonder why he had so much time to do his thing there is a reason. He created that time. Mario almost looked like he was doing things in slow motion all the time and yet he'd score or make a pretty pass. Or a guy like Messier. Why did it seem like he had free will on the ice? Well, he created that room from years and years of ferocious play. Messier certainly didn't have the talent of Lemieux or Gretzky but it is just another example of how great players always seem to be the central focus when they are on the ice.

Look, we've seen some lovely goals in the NHL in this shortened year. Look at that spinorama from Chara, the end to end rush from Datsyuk, the lovely goal Toews scored against Colorado the splitting the defense move from Malkin against Tampa the other night, etc, etc. Just like the 1980s, the best players still can make defenses look foolish. And just like in the 1980s there is always a plan to stop them.

Now, think about that and then imagine the multi point games that Malkin or Crosby always seem to get. Or about Ovechkin, when he WAS Ovechkin, how he somehow managed to burst down the left wing, cut in the middle and wrist a hard shot over the goaltender's shoulders. Everyone knew he was going to do this and the goalie and opposing defenseman couldn't stop him. Why couldn't anyone figure out Hull's one time shot? Or why hasn't anyone figured out Stamkos yet? Coaching and goaltending are incredible today and yet the best players still go above and beyond. The more things change the more they stay the same.

I just think we are so far removed from Gretzky's era now that it is becoming easier and easier to dismiss it because we expect to see a player like that again. We probably won't, which is what made it so amazing back then. All the players in today's game still get their points and yet none of them are the player Gretzky was. Crosby is on pace (and I use the word "pace" a little loosely) for about 130 in a full season. It is not crazy to me to suggest Gretzky gets 180-190 in today's game perhaps still peaking at 200.
I won't call you crazy Phil but the idea that Wayne, or anyone, could get 180-200 points today simply doesn't add up and either you really don't understand how hard it is to score night in night out in todays NHL or you are making a god out of a human in Wayne, which some people tend to do.

The top 5 teams last year scored

282
269
264
249 249 goals

In the seasons Wayne scored 180 plus his team scored

417
424
446
401
426 (215 points for wayne)
372 (183 points)
363 (149 points in 64 games 186 point pace)
376 LA (168 points)


Do you see where the problem is here Phil in your assertion?

All of the above is before we even take about the differences in the game which have made it more defensive lately as expressed by the much lower team scoring totals.

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03-09-2013, 12:27 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Fair enough, you like that he could play both. But you also said Lemieux was better, which is the point I was making originally. If you like Fedorov's 2 way game, Lemieux was worse defensively than Gretzky even. If you are judging by offense, Fedorov is no where near Gretzky's level. Either way, you're picking and choosing your arguments to suit your needs.

Lots of players were better than Wayne defensively, but that doesn't mean they were better players. And all those guys who were better than Wayne defensively were also better than Lemieux defensively. Again, that doesn't mean they were better. Fedorov had a few seasons where he was really good. Gretzky had 6 years where he averaged 200+ points, a 10 year span where he averaged 180+ points, and another really great decade of post-prime hockey that would have been a HHOF career even if he hadn't won 9 Harts in the 80's. He has led or tied the league in points 11 times. That's as many as Lemieux and Jagr put together.

As for going by what Gretzky says about other players, I wouldn't take that too seriously. He says a lot of really nice things about guys. He said Ovechkin could break his 92 goal scoring record, and that Crosby might threaten many of his records as well. Does anyone actually think he was right about that?


If you wouldn't take too seriously what Gretzky says about hockey players, then how can I take your questions seriously?

I'll stick to my opinion - Lemieux and Fedorov.

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03-09-2013, 12:37 PM
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
If you wouldn't take too seriously what Gretzky says about hockey players, then how can I take your questions seriously?

I'll stick to my opinion - Lemieux and Fedorov.
I always felt Fedorov was the best all round player to ever play this game. He could play every position perfectly. He was one of the best two way player to play the game.

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03-09-2013, 12:56 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by TheNudge View Post
I always felt Fedorov was the best all round player to ever play this game. He could play every position perfectly. He was one of the best two way player to play the game.
Spot on

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03-09-2013, 01:02 PM
  #489
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Fedorov couldn't do everything he did consistently. Consistency is still number one above everything else in pro sports.

I'll take Gretzky's consistency over anything else we've ever seen in this game.

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03-09-2013, 02:30 PM
  #490
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I always felt Fedorov was the best all round player to ever play this game. He could play every position perfectly. He was one of the best two way player to play the game.
This thread hasn't gotten that crazy that a player like Sergei Fedorov is now being compared to Gretzky has it? It is possible that with a little bit of elbow grease you could say Fedorov was as good as Doug Gilmour, but even in that case I'll say no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I won't call you crazy Phil but the idea that Wayne, or anyone, could get 180-200 points today simply doesn't add up and either you really don't understand how hard it is to score night in night out in todays NHL or you are making a god out of a human in Wayne, which some people tend to do.

The top 5 teams last year scored

282
269
264
249 249 goals

In the seasons Wayne scored 180 plus his team scored

417
424
446
401
426 (215 points for wayne)
372 (183 points)
363 (149 points in 64 games 186 point pace)
376 LA (168 points)


Do you see where the problem is here Phil in your assertion?

All of the above is before we even take about the differences in the game which have made it more defensive lately as expressed by the much lower team scoring totals.
The highest percentage of goals Gretzky was part of on his team look like this:
1981 (50%)
1982 (50.8%)
1985 (51.8%)
1986 (50.8%)

The rest have him hovering near 50% as well. Since 2005 the teams with the highest goals look like this:

2010 Washington - 318
2006 Ottawa - 314
2007 Buffalo - 308
2006 Detroit - 305
2009 Detroit - 295

Let's take the 2010 Capitals here. If Gretzky is in on 50% of their goals then he has a 159 point season. However, a player like Gretzky is more offensive than anyone on the Capitals and makes the entire team better. Therefore a team like that probably scores 375 goals for the season, let's say. If he maintains that 50% pace then he has a 188 point season that year. It isn't all that crazy considering Ovechkin had 1.51 PPG that year and finished with 109 on pace for 124. I can't imagine Ovechkin outscoring Gretzky by any stretch of the imagination or even coming close. When you look at it through that type of microscope then it makes sense.

Plus we are also leaving out a few things. Since Gretzky has left the game the clutch and grab hockey is cleaned up, there are two extra games played per year since the 1980s, the red line is removed and if anyone could find a way to hit the open man without a two line pass then it is him. Also a minor detail, but power plays automatically start in the opposing end which didn't happen in the 1980s. A minor issue but maybe there are 2-3 more goals a year scored because of that.

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03-09-2013, 02:38 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Fedorov couldn't do everything he did consistently. Consistency is still number one above everything else in pro sports.

I'll take Gretzky's consistency over anything else we've ever seen in this game.
Well Federov was a consistently excellent 2 way playoff performer.

His regular season success was somewhat derailed by his relationship with Scotty Bowman.

Sergei and Denis Potvin both have the best 4 years stretches all time in the playoffs without a Conn Smythe when it's very arguable that they were their teams best playoff performer over that 4 year stretch.

Not that Federov is in the argument for 5th best player of all time but it does go to show how much higher the standard and conditions are posts early 90'

It will be very interesting to see how Sergei does in the top 50 center project of all time.

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03-09-2013, 02:49 PM
  #492
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I don't think that there will be another Gretzky. Add in Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe, Rocket Richard, Ken Dryden and Mario Lemieux. They were all unique individuals who played like a man among boys. Dominic Hasek was an amazing goalie, but you have to decide if he was as good as Dryden or Sawchuk or...

A new super star will appear in the next 10 or 15 years. Maybe it is Ovie or somebody in the league right now. Time will tell. I don't see any team winning 3 or 4 SC in a row. If they do, look at that team's star players.

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03-09-2013, 02:49 PM
  #493
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Lemieux was better and Crosby is also better. People have a very hard time looking away from gaudy numbers to look at the actual quality of play. Nobody will ever put up Gretzky like numbers again unless the rules/equipment are changed significantly.

Looking at those percentages...The Penguins have 86 goals and Crosby has 39 points (and that's with a slow start). 45% of his teams scoring goes through Crosby and when you consider that Malkin and Neal don't even play on his line...Meanwhile he's better at faceoffs, bigger, better on the boards and better defensively...

Anyway this debate will go on forever because of how open the game was then and how many points Gretzky got. The parity in the league and the improvement top to bottom just don't allow for those kinds of numbers. Crosby might be able to do it though.

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03-09-2013, 02:56 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Lemieux was better and Crosby is also better. People have a very hard time looking away from gaudy numbers to look at the actual quality of play. Nobody will ever put up Gretzky like numbers again unless the rules/equipment are changed significantly.

Looking at those percentages...The Penguins have 86 goals and Crosby has 39 points (and that's with a slow start). 45% of his teams scoring goes through Crosby and when you consider that Malkin and Neal don't even play on his line...Meanwhile he's better at faceoffs, bigger, better on the boards and better defensively...

Anyway this debate will go on forever because of how open the game was then and how many points Gretzky got. The parity in the league and the improvement top to bottom just don't allow for those kinds of numbers. Crosby might be able to do it though.
I don't think Crosby can ever be at Gretzky's level anymore. In 2007 when he hit 120 points as a sophomore there seemed to be a lot of promise for him to maybe get to a Gretzky or Lemieux level. However this is 2013 and after 7 and a half seasons has 1 Hart and 1 Art Ross to his name. Gretzky had 7 Harts and 6 Art Rosses after 7 seasons. 2 Cups as well. I am not even going to bother telling everyone the players Gretzky obliterated in those scoring races if it is only going to be met with "it was easier back then". Crosby is a great player, but I'm not sure he is much better than Trottier, Dionne, Stastny and Bossy were at their best. This is who Gretzky dominated against and it wasn't easy then it just looked easy because he had scoring titles wrapped up by January.

Don't believe me? In 1983-'84 Gretzky had his 51 game point streak and had 153 points during that time. Had he packed it up and said "good day" the rest of the year he still wins the Art Ross by 25 points over Paul Coffey - his teammate. Anyone can say what they want but if you sit back and think about it for a second you'll realize just how gaudy that is. Then picture a similar thing about 5-6 more seasons.

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03-09-2013, 02:57 PM
  #495
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
This thread hasn't gotten that crazy that a player like Sergei Fedorov is now being compared to Gretzky has it? It is possible that with a little bit of elbow grease you could say Fedorov was as good as Doug Gilmour, but even in that case I'll say no.



The highest percentage of goals Gretzky was part of on his team look like this:
1981 (50%)
1982 (50.8%)
1985 (51.8%)
1986 (50.8%)

The rest have him hovering near 50% as well. Since 2005 the teams with the highest goals look like this:

2010 Washington - 318
2006 Ottawa - 314
2007 Buffalo - 308
2006 Detroit - 305
2009 Detroit - 295

Let's take the 2010 Capitals here. If Gretzky is in on 50% of their goals then he has a 159 point season. However, a player like Gretzky is more offensive than anyone on the Capitals and makes the entire team better. Therefore a team like that probably scores 375 goals for the season, let's say.
The 2nd best team that season scored 272 goals and you are going to throw out a Wayne led Washington team scoring 375?

You are simply trying to force the issue here and the conditions in the NHL makes that application highly improbable, if not downright impossible.

Quote:
If he maintains that 50% pace then he has a 188 point season that year. It isn't all that crazy considering Ovechkin had 1.51 PPG that year and finished with 109 on pace for 124. I can't imagine Ovechkin outscoring Gretzky by any stretch of the imagination or even coming close. When you look at it through that type of microscope then it makes sense.
That's a huge if as I demonstrated above, and you are putting him in the most perfect situation that is almost like an outlier in the post lockout NHL as well.

For arguments sake let's put him back on the Oilers with similar young talent like the early 80's one.

Well for starters they are in the West and we all can see how far young offensive talent gets a team in the post lockout era as well.

Quote:
Plus we are also leaving out a few things. Since Gretzky has left the game the clutch and grab hockey is cleaned up, there are two extra games played per year since the 1980s, the red line is removed and if anyone could find a way to hit the open man without a two line pass then it is him. Also a minor detail, but power plays automatically start in the opposing end which didn't happen in the 1980s. A minor issue but maybe there are 2-3 more goals a year scored because of that.
All of that would most likely be nullified by the lack of empty net points to go around today compared back to the early 80's.

PP scoring % is down from the constant 22 % to 18% post lockout as well.

There is quite simply very little evidence backing a claim of Wayne ever topping 180 points in a post lockout NHL from the data we have.

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03-09-2013, 02:58 PM
  #496
Yamaguchi
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well Federov was a consistently excellent 2 way playoff performer.

His regular season success was somewhat derailed by his relationship with Scotty Bowman.

Sergei and Denis Potvin both have the best 4 years stretches all time in the playoffs without a Conn Smythe when it's very arguable that they were their teams best playoff performer over that 4 year stretch.

Not that Federov is in the argument for 5th best player of all time but it does go to show how much higher the standard and conditions are posts early 90'

It will be very interesting to see how Sergei does in the top 50 center project of all time.


Hopefully, Fedorov will be above Gilmour in the rankings.

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03-09-2013, 03:03 PM
  #497
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Fedorov didn't care much about regular season after that one hart. Detroit had no problems getting to playoffs and he was good in those. There are plenty of players that don't put 100% effort during regular season if it's not needed. Fedorov was most complete player ever. He didn't score as much as some but he was fast as lightning, 100mph slap shot, maybe best skater ever and could play any spot. What else you need?

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03-09-2013, 03:14 PM
  #498
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Lemieux was better and Crosby is also better. People have a very hard time looking away from gaudy numbers to look at the actual quality of play. Nobody will ever put up Gretzky like numbers again unless the rules/equipment are changed significantly.

Looking at those percentages...The Penguins have 86 goals and Crosby has 39 points (and that's with a slow start). 45% of his teams scoring goes through Crosby and when you consider that Malkin and Neal don't even play on his line...Meanwhile he's better at faceoffs, bigger, better on the boards and better defensively...

Anyway this debate will go on forever because of how open the game was then and how many points Gretzky got. The parity in the league and the improvement top to bottom just don't allow for those kinds of numbers. Crosby might be able to do it though.
That's crazy talk.

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03-09-2013, 03:15 PM
  #499
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The 2nd best team that season scored 272 goals and you are going to throw out a Wayne led Washington team scoring 375?

You are simply trying to force the issue here and the conditions in the NHL makes that application highly improbable, if not downright impossible.
In 1983 the Oilers scored 424 with the next best getting 350
In 1984 446 with the next best 360
In 1986 they had 426 with the next best at 354

I just simply threw the 375 number out there because we saw them get 318 and the impact Gretzky would have on the ENTIRE team would be peerless. A guy like Gretzky gives the second and third liners more room. If Gretzky's team in today's NHL is scoring that many goals and winning then the NHL would copy this in the hopes of being able to have this success too. So the culture of the NHL would switch a little bit and offense would be favoured more. So I don't think the second best team has only 272 goals. I am just using the "butterfly effect" to the best of our abilities here. We are guessing here and that is the best we can do even with the data in front of us.

What we do know is that Gretzky dominated sure fire HHOFers in his day and only had a peer when another generational player (Lemieux) started to hit his stride.

It is fair to say that for Crosby to be anywhere near a Gretzky level all time we would have had to have seen him dominate the game the way Gretzky did. The top players of today are the same as the top players back then and we know that Gretzky dominated them at an eye popping level where as Crosby has yet to have as many Art Rosses as his own teammate.

I also think you are underestimating the adjustment Gretzky would make. He adjusted at every level in his career. At a 6 year old he scored one goal on a team of 10 year olds. By the time he was 10 in that same league he scored 378. In the OHL as a 16 year old he had 182 points. In the WHA as a 17 year old he has over 100 points. As a rookie in the NHL at 18 he had 137 points. Then he adjusted his game even better after 1981 despite having a 164 point season and skyrocketing to the point where he is averaging 200 points a year for the next half dozen seasons. He outscores the other players from other parts of the world in Canada Cup play too. He puts up gaudy numbers in the postseason.

The bottom line here is that at a time (the 1980s) when everyone thought no one could possibly do what he did, he did it. They said the same thing about him as you are saying today. "It can't be done." Bobby Clarke said himself Gretzky "wouldn't last." Nothing has changed, there are ALWAYS critics. The only time is the critics on Gretzky can't be disproven this time in front of their own eyes. It is impossible, the man is 53 years old now. All we can do is look at the evidence. John Muckler used to be amazed that a the best player in the world who was getting 200 points a year still tried to work on his game to get even better.

How does that not translate into superhuman greatness in any generation?

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Old
03-09-2013, 03:17 PM
  #500
Cujomi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Crosby is a great player, but I'm not sure he is much better than Trottier, Dionne, Stastny and Bossy were at their best. This is who Gretzky dominated against and it wasn't easy then it just looked easy because he had scoring titles wrapped up by January.
I am not going to argue with you after reading this. I will simply say that Gretzky was head and shoulders above anyone else in the NHL in his time. It is a lot harder to make that separation now because players in general are just much better than they used to be. Systems are better. The players are more athletic. Everything has changed. People should just stop trying to compare players from different eras.

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