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Will we ever see a better player than Gretzky? Will we know it?

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03-09-2013, 03:17 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I don't think Crosby can ever be at Gretzky's level anymore. In 2007 when he hit 120 points as a sophomore there seemed to be a lot of promise for him to maybe get to a Gretzky or Lemieux level. However this is 2013 and after 7 and a half seasons has 1 Hart and 1 Art Ross to his name. Gretzky had 7 Harts and 6 Art Rosses after 7 seasons. 2 Cups as well. I am not even going to bother telling everyone the players Gretzky obliterated in those scoring races if it is only going to be met with "it was easier back then". Crosby is a great player, but I'm not sure he is much better than Trottier, Dionne, Stastny and Bossy were at their best. This is who Gretzky dominated against and it wasn't easy then it just looked easy because he had scoring titles wrapped up by January.

Don't believe me? In 1983-'84 Gretzky had his 51 game point streak and had 153 points during that time. Had he packed it up and said "good day" the rest of the year he still wins the Art Ross by 25 points over Paul Coffey - his teammate. Anyone can say what they want but if you sit back and think about it for a second you'll realize just how gaudy that is. Then picture a similar thing about 5-6 more seasons.

In early 1980s Gretzky could secure his scoring titles by tearing apart the "mickey mouse" clubs, but when it comes to a real challenge, guys like Trottier and Bossy would prevail and eventually win another Cup.

I remember, the Islanders wouldn't let Gretzky score a goal for 11 matches in a row. They kept Gretzky without a goal in the 1983 Cup finals.

Therefore, I would not say that Gretzky dominated against guys like Trotter and Bossy. Not until mid 80s.

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03-09-2013, 03:19 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That's a huge if as I demonstrated above, and you are putting him in the most perfect situation that is almost like an outlier in the post lockout NHL as well.
Gretzky WAS an outlier.

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03-09-2013, 03:20 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I am not going to argue with you after reading this. I will simply say that Gretzky was head and shoulders above anyone else in the NHL in his time. It is a lot harder to make that separation now because players in general are just much better than they used to be. Systems are better. The players are more athletic. Everything has changed. People should just stop trying to compare players from different eras.
And in general, players today have way worse hockey sense than those who played in the 70's and 80's, and hockey sense is the most important attribute for a hockey player.

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03-09-2013, 03:21 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
In early 1980s Gretzky could secure his scoring titles by tearing apart the "mickey mouse" clubs, but when it comes to a real challenge, guys like Trottier and Bossy would prevail and eventually win another Cup.

I remember, the Islanders wouldn't let Gretzky score a goal for 11 matches in a row. They kept Gretzky without a goal in the 1983 Cup finals.

Therefore, I would not say that Gretzky dominated against guys like Trotter and Bossy. Not until mid 80s.
That happened once. ONCE.

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03-09-2013, 03:32 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
That happened once. ONCE.
What happened?

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03-09-2013, 04:16 PM
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I am not going to argue with you after reading this. I will simply say that Gretzky was head and shoulders above anyone else in the NHL in his time. It is a lot harder to make that separation now because players in general are just much better than they used to be. Systems are better. The players are more athletic. Everything has changed. People should just stop trying to compare players from different eras.
And that argument gets torn apart once we realize that not only have players in general improved but the superstars have - and would - as well. Therefore Gretzky in 2013 is a better skater, stronger and probably faster. Either way he is still the same player just able to take advantages of the training today. Yes the average third liner is better today from a physical standpoint but so are the stars. Why does everyone improve except Gretzky?

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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
In early 1980s Gretzky could secure his scoring titles by tearing apart the "mickey mouse" clubs, but when it comes to a real challenge, guys like Trottier and Bossy would prevail and eventually win another Cup.

I remember, the Islanders wouldn't let Gretzky score a goal for 11 matches in a row. They kept Gretzky without a goal in the 1983 Cup finals.

Therefore, I would not say that Gretzky dominated against guys like Trotter and Bossy. Not until mid 80s.
Well the Oilers lost to the Islanders. Gretzky didn't exactly lose to Trottier and Bossy. Gretzky had 38 playoff points in 16 games in 1983. The knock on him was that he only had 4 asissts in the series sweep in 1983 against the Islanders. Don't worry, there were plenty of people calling Gretzky and the Oilers "weak kneed wimps" back then. However Bossy had 26 points that spring and Trottier didn't even have 20. Despite the fact that the Islanders held Gretzky to a mere point a game in the final doesn't exactly mean he wasn't the best player in the game at that time. The Oilers just got beat by a better team in 1983, plain and simple. They weren't ready yet. By 1984 they were.

Think about this, in 1984 the regular season scoring leaders looked like this:
Gretzky 205
Bossy 118 (5th in points)
Trottier 111 (8th in points)

Would anyone have ever taken Trottier over Gretzky at that time despite the dynasty the Islanders provided? No.

Then in the postseason Gretzky had 35 points and Bossy had 18. Trottier had 14. Gretzky in Game 5 of the final scored two goals right off the bat. The Islanders were never in that game and it was over before it started. So how much better was Gretzky in 1984 than 1983? A little bit I think, but he hardly was anything but far and away the best player in the NHL in 1983 either.

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03-09-2013, 04:58 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
In 1983 the Oilers scored 424 with the next best getting 350
In 1984 446 with the next best 360
In 1986 they had 426 with the next best at 354
There still a huge difference with your 375-272 compared to the above 3 best perfect storm situations.In your 375 example, that team would outscore the enxt best team by 1.37 ratio (375/272) in a harder scoring era.

Your best 3 examples for Wayne in the 80's were

424/350 =1.21
446/360 =1.23
426/354 =1.20

Also you are talking about 1 season in the current case compared to 3 in the past.

A better and more accurate comparison of 3 seasons on the same team not to then would have more meaning and would also show quite clearly the impossibility of the gap Wayne would have to make up.

Quote:
just simply threw the 375 number out there because we saw them get 318 and the impact Gretzky would have on the ENTIRE team would be peerless. A guy like Gretzky gives the second and third liners more room. If Gretzky's team in today's NHL is scoring that many goals and winning then the NHL would copy this in the hopes of being able to have this success too. So the culture of the NHL would switch a little bit and offense would be favoured more. So I don't think the second best team has only 272 goals. I am just using the "butterfly effect" to the best of our abilities here. We are guessing here and that is the best we can do even with the data in front of us.
You are taking too mnay if's based on how you view Wayne and not actually looking at the probability or likeliehood that he would be able to replciate what you say he might with the numbers you are using.

I haven't done a detailed study on it but players other than Wayne and Mario were scoring close to or over 50% of their teams points in the 80's and early 90's now it almost exceptional for any player to hit over 40%. If other players were doing it, and I know Stevie Y did it then it's not just an outlier situation either but a change in the game.

Quote:
What we do know is that Gretzky dominated sure fire HHOFers in his day and only had a peer when another generational player (Lemieux) started to hit his stride.
We also know that Wayne and the Oilers were a special case and perfect storm scenario and that his rate of dominance decreased well before one would expect it to as well.

In LA it became obvious that despite his dominance in scoring, the impact of that dominance was less due to the amount of his GA while he was on the ice.

On the best team in the league it was less of a problem but became more so one in LA.

Quote:
It is fair to say that for Crosby to be anywhere near a Gretzky level all time we would have had to have seen him dominate the game the way Gretzky did. The top players of today are the same as the top players back then and we know that Gretzky dominated them at an eye popping level where as Crosby has yet to have as many Art Rosses as his own teammate.
no that would be unfqair for two primary reasons.

First Crosby plays a strong 2 way game something that was never required of Wayne in Edmonton. In the world of real hockey that has to count for something.

Second, Sid is playing agaisnt increaed comapetion in the form of the best players in the world whcih is a greater pool than Wayne ever faced.

An earlier poster posted his world Cup/Canada Cup stats where he came out with a 148 point pro rated compared to Makarov at 118.

Injuries are the only real problem for Sid and this season he and Stamkos are really starting to show some distance between themselves and the pack of other Canadians (to compare apples with apples) and we have already seen his pace compared to other Canadians since he has come into the league at 18 with a super bang.

Quote:
I also think you are underestimating the adjustment Gretzky would make. He adjusted at every level in his career. At a 6 year old he scored one goal on a team of 10 year olds. By the time he was 10 in that same league he scored 378. In the OHL as a 16 year old he had 182 points. In the WHA as a 17 year old he has over 100 points. As a rookie in the NHL at 18 he had 137 points. Then he adjusted his game even better after 1981 despite having a 164 point season and skyrocketing to the point where he is averaging 200 points a year for the next half dozen seasons. He outscores the other players from other parts of the world in Canada Cup play too. He puts up gaudy numbers in the postseason.

The bottom line here is that at a time (the 1980s) when everyone thought no one could possibly do what he did, he did it. They said the same thing about him as you are saying today. "It can't be done." Bobby Clarke said himself Gretzky "wouldn't last." Nothing has changed, there are ALWAYS critics. The only time is the critics on Gretzky can't be disproven this time in front of their own eyes. It is impossible, the man is 53 years old now. All we can do is look at the evidence. John Muckler used to be amazed that a the best player in the world who was getting 200 points a year still tried to work on his game to get even better.
The bottom line is that it was all still in the 80's when the amount of 50 goal scorers and 100 point guys (Wayne and Mario excluded) was enormous compared to the post lockout era.

wehn we break thsoe numbers down it's even more outstanding that the guys in a 21 team league (same 60 minute games for everyone and 2 less games per season) that they scored so many more 50 plus goals and 100 point plus seasons.

Considering the number of non Canadians in the scoring leader ranks post lockout, a lack of talent is not a reasonable explanation, but rather greater difficulty in scoring due to many reasons of defense is.

Quote:
How does that not translate into superhuman greatness in any generation?
Wayne is my number 1 player of all time but even the greatest can get over hyped if context is not given as you have done in the above thread.

It is pretty clear that your assertion of Wayne scoring 108-, 190 or 200 points today would require him to be even better than he ever was at his peak in the 80's.

That quite simply is something that even Wayne couldn't do and he would be the first person to tell you that.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 03-09-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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03-09-2013, 05:17 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Crosby is a great player, but I'm not sure he is much better than Trottier, Dionne, Stastny and Bossy were at their best. This is who Gretzky dominated against and it wasn't easy then it just looked easy because he had scoring titles wrapped up by January.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I am not going to argue with you after reading this. I will simply say that Gretzky was head and shoulders above anyone else in the NHL in his time. It is a lot harder to make that separation now because players in general are just much better than they used to be. Systems are better. The players are more athletic. Everything has changed. People should just stop trying to compare players from different eras.
I agree.

Phil, if you can't see the dominance and difference of Sid compared to the guys you listed above then I really can't help you out at all.

The only thing keeping Sid close to those other guys in any comparison through their 1st 7 or 8 seasons is heath and that's it.

Even with Sid's time off due to injuries this is how he stacks up against his peers in his time in the NHL.

Even with the time missed he is only 32 points behind the top Canadian player in 132 less games.

On a PPG basis his 1.41 PPG is much better than Thorton's 1.15 (apples with apples comp) and the two Russians AO 1.22 and Malkin at 1.23.

Sorry but other than health none of the guys you mentioned are as good as Sid is and only Trottier is going to compare in the 2way game.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points 32 points behind the top Canadian player in 132 less games

Here is Trottier in his 1st 8 seasons (first 4 with an active WHA, last 4 integrated 21 teams but still few non Canadians)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Notice 4 NYI players on that list at 3, 7, 14 and 18.

Gillies at 18 is the product of Bossy, Trotts and Potvin but Potvin was stirring the drink before Trotts every showed up so it probably helped Trotts points totals (compared to Letang for part of Sids time).

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03-09-2013, 05:27 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Gretzky WAS an outlier.
Yes Wayne was an outlier but I'm talking about putting him on Wshington (in their outlier season of 318 GF, Canucks 2nd) and then just simply adding 57 goals to make 375 for the "Wayne affect"

Washington scored 272 GF the year before (09) behind Det 295 and Boston with 274.

In 11 Washington is 19th in GF with 224

Even if we go back to 08, they are 9th with 242 GF

so in a 3 year average Washington scores 277 GF /season.

Quite simply to cherry pick the outlier season that Washington has in 10 with 318 GF didn't even help Phil's case until he did a couple of "what if's."

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03-09-2013, 06:01 PM
  #510
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If we see 6 yr old kid, scoring against 10 yr old boys then we might have someone coming. Until then I do not think someone is coming in our life time.

There are generation talent, Lemieux , Orr, Howe etc..

Then there are century talent, Ruth, morenz,
Gretzky and jordan

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03-09-2013, 06:40 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I agree.

Phil, if you can't see the dominance and difference of Sid compared to the guys you listed above then I really can't help you out at all.

The only thing keeping Sid close to those other guys in any comparison through their 1st 7 or 8 seasons is heath and that's it.

Even with Sid's time off due to injuries this is how he stacks up against his peers in his time in the NHL.

Even with the time missed he is only 32 points behind the top Canadian player in 132 less games.

On a PPG basis his 1.41 PPG is much better than Thorton's 1.15 (apples with apples comp) and the two Russians AO 1.22 and Malkin at 1.23.

Sorry but other than health none of the guys you mentioned are as good as Sid is and only Trottier is going to compare in the 2way game.
Alright I didn't quote the other thread. However, one of the things I will take from it is this: it doesn't matter if the NHL in the 1980s was mostly Canadian or not. There were star players then and there were star players today and in the 1990s regardless of which country they came from. I am assuming you are ignoring the Canada Cups in which Gretzky outscored the field at a startling comparison so if you are doing that I will point out some particular seasons where a more Euro-blended NHL existed:

1993-94 - Gretzky 130, Fedorov 120, Oates, 112, Gilmour 111, Bure 107, Roenick 107
1996-97 - Lemieux 122, Selanne 109, Kariya 99, Leclair 97, Gretzky 97
1997-98 - Jagr 102, Forsberg 91, Bure 90, Gretzky 90, Leclair 87

There is an old battered Gretzky who has 15 years in the NHL under his belt leading the field in points, still by 10. A year before he retired and at a time when he was a shadow of his former self he has as many points as Bure and one less than a prime Forsberg. Gretzky's closest contemporary - Lemieux - did stuff like this in a more "integrated" NHL which apparently is better too.

1992-'93 - Lemieux 160 (60 games), Lafontaine 148, Oates 142, Yzerman 137, Selanne 132, Turgeon 132, Mogilny 127
1995-'96 - Lemieux 161, Jagr 149, Sakic 120, Francis 119, Forsberg 116, Lindros 115, Kariya 108, Selanne 108, Mogilny 107, Fedorov 107

Now that SHOULD put to bed any discussion from a poster attempting to make a serious point about just how a generational player would fare in a league more integrated than the 1980s. Lemieux did this in a Canadian dominated league in 1989 and he did the same thing in 1993 and 1996 when more Euros and Americans hit their stride. It didn't matter. Or you can look at his early dominance at 37 years old in 2002-'03 in the first half the season. Gretzky was skating with a cane in the late 1990s and still could keep up with some of the best Euros in their prime.

Still not convinced?

Point leaders in the 1980s:
Gretzky - 1837
Stastny - 986
Dionne - 980
Kurri - 950
Savard - 933

Point leaders since 2005:
Ovechkin - 699
Thornton - 680
Crosby - 648
H. Sedin - 624
St. Louis - 624

PPG since 2005:
Crosby, 1.41, Ovechkin1.23, Malkin 1.22, Thornton 1.15

Not bad, and yeah on a projected level Crosby is the best player of his generation. He just needs to do more healthy.

However, PPG in the 1980s:
Gretzky 2.37, Lemieux 1.94, Bossy 1.52, Stastny 1.46, Kurri 1.41

And then..........
PPG in the 1990s:
Lemieux 2.07, Gretzky 1.43, Lindros 1.39, Selanne 1.33, Lafontaine 1.32, Jagr 1.30

This is Gretzky in his 30s. Overall he led the entire NHL in points in the 1990s. Mario was injured/retired or else he'd have done it which does create more seperation between he and Gretzky for PPG. So with already a decade of hockey where people were calling him the greatest to ever live he still came into a European integrated league in the 1990s and had more points than anyone else and a better PPG than anyone not named Lemieux.

Crosby is a fine player and I personally hope that he strings together some great seasons in the NHL and stays healthy. However whatever he does will never be as good as Gretzky. Right now we have to see if Crosby can have a Jagr-like career first. So what more did Gretzky have to do for you to convince you that this league today would still be a slice for him? He obviously adjusted rather good in the 1990s didn't he? Or did he just get a lot of charity while he was on the ice?

These theories we come up with on how many points he gets in a season and all are simply just theories. We can't come up with one round number we all agree on. Because we all think we can predict what would happen. This whole business of finding what percentage of points he'd be in on in today's game and finding out how many goals that team has is really impossible to do and I prefer actually looking at true facts from the man's career to judge my position. The true facts are that the guy blew the field away in two different decades and in the first one it was embarassing. So he can adjust from the 1980s to the 1990s despite the natural aging process but he couldn't in 2013, in his prime? I'm sorry, I don't get your logic.

Bossy, Trottier, Savard, Stastny, Dionne, Kurri, Hawerchuk aren't any worse than the best of today of Stamkos, Malkin, Sedin, Sedin, Thornton, Tavares, St. Louis, Ovechkin. Yet one player dominated against those guys and the other (Crosby) hasn't shown any considerable seperation against that pack in a full season yet.

You really think Gretzky couldn't adjust to the game of today and dominate? My guess is if he won a scoring title in 1984 at his highest seperation (79 points) of the next best player then he can probably get 180 in a season like 2013 when the best players are getting 115-125 points and the top dogs aren't any better than the 1980s top dogs.

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03-09-2013, 06:49 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I agree.

Phil, if you can't see the dominance and difference of Sid compared to the guys you listed above then I really can't help you out at all.

The only thing keeping Sid close to those other guys in any comparison through their 1st 7 or 8 seasons is heath and that's it.

Even with Sid's time off due to injuries this is how he stacks up against his peers in his time in the NHL.

Even with the time missed he is only 32 points behind the top Canadian player in 132 less games.

On a PPG basis his 1.41 PPG is much better than Thorton's 1.15 (apples with apples comp) and the two Russians AO 1.22 and Malkin at 1.23.

Sorry but other than health none of the guys you mentioned are as good as Sid is and only Trottier is going to compare in the 2way game.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points 32 points behind the top Canadian player in 132 less games

Here is Trottier in his 1st 8 seasons (first 4 with an active WHA, last 4 integrated 21 teams but still few non Canadians)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Notice 4 NYI players on that list at 3, 7, 14 and 18.

Gillies at 18 is the product of Bossy, Trotts and Potvin but Potvin was stirring the drink before Trotts every showed up so it probably helped Trotts points totals (compared to Letang for part of Sids time).

What the hell are we talking about here?
It sure as hell isn't Fedorov. That's what you're making Sid out to be and it's ridiculous!

For the last time, Sid plays defensively responsible, he's better than average in it but he's by no means among the league's best in this regard.

I freakin dare you to show me where this high level of defensive play you attribute to him was in the playoff's last year or the year before that.

Sid is NOT Fedorov, he is NOT Yzerman and he isn't even Joe Sakic defensively! Even eluding that Sid is close to Trottier in this regard is beyond ridiculous!
Give it a rest with this gross over-exaggeration already FFS!


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03-09-2013, 07:24 PM
  #513
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he can probably get 180 in a season like 2013 when the best players are getting 115-125 points and the top dogs aren't any better than the 1980s top dogs.
This is the problem I have with the argument: you are assuming that Crosby is ONLY at the level of a Bossy or a Trottier.

The problem with that is if you compare them statistically, Crosby should blow them out of the water. He has put up a somewhat similar amount of points in an era where the scoring is quite a bit lower. And he is clearly, clearly the best player in the world. I don't even think that is up for debate anymore. So if Crosby, the clear cut best player in the league, (which Bossy or Trottier or Stastny or Dionne or any of those guys never were) can only get 120 points as a career high (so far) in a lower scoring era, why do you assume that guys who only marginally outscored him (and actually have a significantly lower PPG. Comparable PPG in the case of Bossy. Which should tell you something) are on the same level as him? Do you really think the talent level in the NHL has dropped so far that the clear cut best player in the league today is only on par with the upper echelon of players in the 80s? I would argue the exact opposite.

Crosby's level of dominance may not be the same as Gretzky's, but I believe he is clearly on a level above those guys in my mind. So if Gretzky is likely on a level above Crosby, which is safe to assume, I don't think that necessarily translates to 180+ points today as you do.

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03-09-2013, 07:32 PM
  #514
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This is the problem I have with the argument: you are assuming that Crosby is ONLY at the level of a Bossy or a Trottier.

The problem with that is if you compare them statistically, Crosby should blow them out of the water. He has put up a somewhat similar amount of points in an era where the scoring is quite a bit lower. And he is clearly, clearly the best player in the world. I don't even think that is up for debate anymore. So if Crosby, the clear cut best player in the league, (which Bossy or Trottier or Stastny or Dionne or any of those guys never were) can only get 120 points as a career high (so far) in a lower scoring era, why do you assume that guys who only marginally outscored him (and actually have a significantly lower PPG. Comparable PPG in the case of Bossy. Which should tell you something) are on the same level as him? Do you really think the talent level in the NHL has dropped so far that the clear cut best player in the league today is only on par with the upper echelon of players in the 80s? I would argue the exact opposite.

Crosby's level of dominance may not be the same as Gretzky's, but I believe he is clearly on a level above those guys in my mind. So if Gretzky is likely on a level above Crosby, which is safe to assume, I don't think that necessarily translates to 180+ points today as you do.
PPG is problem when it's being used to give a player credit for points he didn't score in games he didn't play in. Being able to stay healthy is part of being a player. Two half season aren't the same as one whole season.

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03-09-2013, 09:43 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
What the hell are we talking about here?
It sure as hell isn't Fedorov. That's what you're making Sid out to be and it's ridiculous!

For the last time, Sid plays defensively responsible, he's better than average in it but he's by no means among the league's best in this regard
.

Like you say he is better than average combined with being the best offensive player in the league. Wayne wasn't average defensively, neither was Marcel. Bossy was decent and Peter was okay.

Gretzky,Trottier, Dionne, Stastny and Bossy are the guys I was comparing Sid's 2 way game in response to Phils post. Trotts is the only guy that comes close to Sid in the comparison of the 2way game and yes Trotts was better but he also faded really fast at the end of his career so time will tell on that front.

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I freakin dare you to show me where this high level of defensive play you attribute to him was in the playoff's last year or the year before that.
Well Sid had a poor playoff with a 6-3-5-8 line and a minus 3 but I dare any player to get past the 1st round when there goaltending had a .828 save% (that might have been excusable in the 80's but in the post lockout not team is getting out of a round with that between the pipes.

Sid didn't play in the 11 playoffs since he was injured.

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Sid is NOT Fedorov, he is NOT Yzerman and he isn't even Joe Sakic defensively! Even eluding that Sid is close to Trottier in this regard is beyond ridiculous!
Give it a rest with this gross over-exaggeration already FFS!
Fedorov was great 2 ways from day 1, so was Trotts, although he was slow (even for his day) and his game wouldn't translate as well today.

Both Yzerman and Sakic were great defensively later in their careers and in Steves case his offense wasn't as good so it's 2 different players we are talking about.

Sakic was hardly Selke material early on in his career and he greatly benefited form Forsberg being on his team, although he is a legit HHOF IMO.

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03-09-2013, 09:51 PM
  #516
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PPG is problem when it's being used to give a player credit for points he didn't score in games he didn't play in. Being able to stay healthy is part of being a player. Two half season aren't the same as one whole season.
You are right but we are talking about a 458 game sample when the leader in the 8 year time period has 597 which is a 76% clip.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

At some point the amount of time missed means more in the single seasons than the whole grouping or do we want to compare Orr to Bourque, Potvin, Lidstrom ect with their 20 year careers.

I seem to be the only person in this section that wants to go there when comparing players.

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03-09-2013, 10:01 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
You are right but we are talking about a 458 game sample when the leader in the 8 year time period has 597 which is a 76% clip.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

At some point the amount of time missed means more in the single seasons than the whole grouping or do we want to compare Orr to Bourque, Potvin, Lidstrom ect with their 20 year careers.

I seem to be the only person in this section that wants to go there when comparing players.
Except that you're talking about a player who's had all of 4 close to full season's in 8. It's not about sample size, it's about judging a player who's had only 4 real seasons of play.

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03-09-2013, 10:05 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
.

Trotts is the only guy that comes close to Sid in the comparison of the 2way game and yes Trotts was better but he also faded really fast at the end of his career so time will tell on that front.
First off, Trotts didn't fade "really" fast.
He was a point per game and better player for 13 seasons before he dropped off and even once he dropped off, he was still one of the premier faceoff and defensive players in the league.

He was more than just a 2-way player, he was a checker that could score.
AGAIN, Sid is NOT in his territory defensively and furthermore, Sid is closer to Gretzky defensively than he is to Trotts!

You continue to overblow Sid's defensive game.
He's above average for a superstar, average as a player, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES!!!
Just about any 3rd or 4th line player and most 2nd line players are better defensively than Sid.

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03-09-2013, 10:27 PM
  #519
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This is the problem I have with the argument: you are assuming that Crosby is ONLY at the level of a Bossy or a Trottier.

The problem with that is if you compare them statistically, Crosby should blow them out of the water. He has put up a somewhat similar amount of points in an era where the scoring is quite a bit lower. And he is clearly, clearly the best player in the world. I don't even think that is up for debate anymore. So if Crosby, the clear cut best player in the league, (which Bossy or Trottier or Stastny or Dionne or any of those guys never were) can only get 120 points as a career high (so far) in a lower scoring era, why do you assume that guys who only marginally outscored him (and actually have a significantly lower PPG. Comparable PPG in the case of Bossy. Which should tell you something) are on the same level as him? Do you really think the talent level in the NHL has dropped so far that the clear cut best player in the league today is only on par with the upper echelon of players in the 80s? I would argue the exact opposite.

Crosby's level of dominance may not be the same as Gretzky's, but I believe he is clearly on a level above those guys in my mind. So if Gretzky is likely on a level above Crosby, which is safe to assume, I don't think that necessarily translates to 180+ points today as you do.
A while back during the lockout there was a very popular thread on these boards: Crosby vs. Trottier. Now, no doubt Trottier has had the better career for the obvious reasons that he played an entire career and Sid is only 25. But the question was more along the lines of who was better at their best? It was a thread I joined a lot and actually didn't have a clear cut answer. You are forgetting one thing here, Trottier was a Hart and Art Ross winner in 1979. He had 134 points and outpointed Dionne (130), Lafleur (129) and Bossy (126). You compare that to Sid's most decorated season with 120 points and he outpoints Thornton (114), Lecavalier (107), Heatley (105) and St. Louis (102). Take into account scoring was lower in 2007 than 1979. But the players Trottier outpointed at the top are superior to the ones Crosby did, not saying Crosby didn't have it hard either because I am not one of these guys who says "well it was EASY to do it then". I am just saying you are likely to take a prime Dionne and Lafleur over a prime Thornton and Lecavalier. I am sure we can agree on that. But for the record, both players outscored some Hall of Famers and we give them credit for it.

Trottier won the Hart rather easily that year with 201 votes to Lafleur's 84. Compare that to Crosby's 1225 to Luongo's 801. Not that this has a lot of bearing on it, but you claimed that there was never a time when Trottier was the best player in the game and it seems like there was a time when he was neck and neck with Lafleur (I will take Lafleur's playoff into account of course). At least in the regular season, yes, it appears people felt he had the best year.

Throw in the fact that Trottier was more physical than Crosby, better defensively and I think there is a very good case that a Trottier at his best is at least as good as a Crosby at his best. After that, Gretzky arrived and NO ONE was the best but him anymore.

You know, I think when people including me say that Crosby is at a Trottier/Bossy type of level we aren't saying it as an insult. Because after Gretzky, Trottier and Bossy WERE the cream of the NHL crop at that time. So instead of complaining that Crosby is being compared to only the upper echelon of players in the 1980s look at it as him being compared to the best players in the game at that time, other than Gretzky, which isn't a knock at all. Gretzky was an outlier, the majority of the time in NHL history a player of Bossy/Trottier/Crosby's level is the best in the game. The point a lot of us are trying to make is that Gretzky is that rare exception to the rule.

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03-09-2013, 11:06 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
This is the problem I have with the argument: you are assuming that Crosby is ONLY at the level of a Bossy or a Trottier.

The problem with that is if you compare them statistically, Crosby should blow them out of the water. He has put up a somewhat similar amount of points in an era where the scoring is quite a bit lower. And he is clearly, clearly the best player in the world. I don't even think that is up for debate anymore. So if Crosby, the clear cut best player in the league, (which Bossy or Trottier or Stastny or Dionne or any of those guys never were) can only get 120 points as a career high (so far) in a lower scoring era, why do you assume that guys who only marginally outscored him (and actually have a significantly lower PPG. Comparable PPG in the case of Bossy. Which should tell you something) are on the same level as him? Do you really think the talent level in the NHL has dropped so far that the clear cut best player in the league today is only on par with the upper echelon of players in the 80s? I would argue the exact opposite.

Crosby's level of dominance may not be the same as Gretzky's, but I believe he is clearly on a level above those guys in my mind. So if Gretzky is likely on a level above Crosby, which is safe to assume, I don't think that necessarily translates to 180+ points today as you do.
"May"?? And "likely"?? Really? Gretzky would NEVER have lost a scoring title to Henrik Sedin over a full season like Crosby did. Crosby has only one scoring title and one Hart Trophy the last I checked. Until a player comes in and gets 8 Hart Trophies in row, starting with his first season in the NHL, including having the most points in the NHL each of those years....no one is even close to Gretzky's level of dominance.

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03-09-2013, 11:10 PM
  #521
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Except that you're talking about a player who's had all of 4 close to full season's in 8. It's not about sample size, it's about judging a player who's had only 4 real seasons of play.
What's the cut off then?

Orr only had 5 full seasons do we throw out his injury Shortened ones?

Does a full season of 48 games in a lockout count or do we hold that against him as well.

Like I stated in the previous thread and showed he has played in over 76% of the leaders games from his time in the league and is 3rd in scoring over that time and his PPG lead has to matter.

If not at 76% of those games then at what number?

At the end of the day those partial seasons do add up to full seasons over a career.

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03-09-2013, 11:34 PM
  #522
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What's the cut off then?

Orr only had 5 full seasons do we throw out his injury Shortened ones?

Does a full season of 48 games in a lockout count or do we hold that against him as well.

Like I stated in the previous thread and showed he has played in over 76% of the leaders games from his time in the league and is 3rd in scoring over that time and his PPG lead has to matter.

If not at 76% of those games then at what number?

At the end of the day those partial seasons do add up to full seasons over a career.
I said CLOSE to a full season. Call it missing ten games or fewer. Orr has 7 of those, Crosby has 4 of them. And no, you don't take 41 games from one season and add it to 22 games from another season and call it the same as a full season: You call that two seasons where he wasn't helping his team because he was on the IR. You can't be the best player in the game in a season where you aren't on the ice. When you have to go through contortions and jump through hoops to create a situation where your boy is the best among the best of the best all time chances are he's NOT among them.

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03-09-2013, 11:36 PM
  #523
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First off, Trotts didn't fade "really" fast.
He was a point per game and better player for 13 seasons before he dropped off and even once he dropped off, he was still one of the premier faceoff and defensive players in the league.
Let's give it some context here shall we?

Age 26 in 83 he doesn't hit top 10 in assists or points.
age 27 in 84 he makes his last top 10 in points with 8th spot
age 30 in 87 he makes top 10 in assists for last time at 4th

After 84 his playoff resume drops off even more than his regular season one does.

Sure he is still good defensively and at face offs but premier defensive guys in the league is a stretch.

12th in Selke voting in 85 (and he has a great defensive reputation)
10th in selke voting in 86
not one of the 30 guys getting a vote in 87
8th in 88
not one of the 20 guys getting votes in 89
not one of the 20 guys getting a vote in 90, although Wayne of all people got a 2nd place vote (would love to know which voter did that).

Funny that kind of record isn't considered premier for other playing for voting in their trophies or do you want me to quote you on that one?

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He was more than just a 2-way player, he was a checker that could score.
AGAIN, Sid is NOT in his territory defensively and furthermore, Sid is closer to Gretzky defensively than he is to Trotts!
It appears with that single Selke vote that Wayne got that you might be onto something there...well not really, Wayne didn't play any kind of defensive game or do I need to drag out his GF and GA while he was on the ice to prove what we already know?

Quote:
You continue to overblow Sid's defensive game.
He's above average for a superstar, average as a player, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES!!!
Just about any 3rd or 4th line player and most 2nd line players are better defensively than Sid.
You said he was above average and I was agreeing with you, now you are adding for a superstar.

Yes almost all 3rd and 4th line players do concentrate on playing defensively in the last 15 years, I've been beating that drum quite a bit on here if you haven't noticed.

Let's put it another way on a spectrum of superstar centers since the early 70's (the time this kid has been watching live hockey), Sid is in the upper spectrum of defensive (2way) superstar centers, closer to Trotts than Gretzky who is close to the bottom of that list.

Sid was a very deserving 1st star in tonight's game against the Leafs BTW.

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03-09-2013, 11:54 PM
  #524
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I said CLOSE to a full season. Call it missing ten games or fewer. Orr has 7 of those, Crosby has 4 of them. And no, you don't take 41 games from one season and add it to 22 games from another season and call it the same as a full season: You call that two seasons where he wasn't helping his team because he was on the IR. You can't be the best player in the game in a season where you aren't on the ice. When you have to go through contortions and jump through hoops to create a situation where your boy is the best among the best of the best all time chances are he's NOT among them.
In individual seasons you can do that but seriously at what point is his being 3rd in total points since the lockout not going to mean a heck of alot.

He is 3rd in total points from age 18-25 and even with the missed time he is only 32 points behind Thorton and 51 behind AO but both of those players are way better 2 way guys than Sid....oopps they aren't

Sometime next season he will be the absolute leader over AO and Thorton and be in on 80% of all possible games, maybe at some point you will recognize his greatness then?

Orr BTW has 5 seasons where he missed less than 10 games and a 6th where his missed 9 games in a 76 game season.

Let's say he has 7 full seasons, how can he stack up to Bourque, Potvin and Lidstrom using your criteria here against Sid?

If you are consistent then you can't say that he does can you?

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03-10-2013, 12:03 AM
  #525
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Only 6 players besides Crosby have had a career PPG average of at least 1.41 at any point in their careers. They all played in higher scoring eras. It doesn't seem like you have to "jump through hoops" to show that when he has been on the ice, he has played at a level few others ever have.

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