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Old
11-19-2014, 08:13 PM
  #1
Paul4587
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Sami Vatanen

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Originally Posted by Rici View Post
Much better! Let's have a look on the statistics: Vatanen 5+11=16, -1. Karlsson 4+8=12, -2.



The news from that side of the ocean are telling that Vatanen scored 1+2. That is enough to pop a wheelie in Finland (if you happen to serve Vatan).

It looks like that even without Eenok "jopo keulii" rather easily here. That Finnish phrase refers to popping a wheelie on a bicycle called Jopo. The phrase means that you exaggerate because you are so excited. But it is not only vatanists who are popping their wheelies on Jopo! It looks like that it is difficult for the anti-religious movement to watch vatanists praising their master here. And, they popping their wheelies on their Jopos as well.

Have a look on Vatanen on the picture. How calm he is!? No popping the wheelie of that Jopo! May the same coolness take over this thread and all of you!
1) Sample size
2) Context of minutes - Karlsson is relied upon far more in Ottawa to play key minutes
3) Supporting cast. Vatanen has miles more to work with on the PP than Karlsson does. Spezza going to Dallas leaves Bobby Ryan as the only guy with close to elite offensive talent there.

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11-19-2014, 08:20 PM
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I am so bad at keeping track of post counts in threads.

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11-19-2014, 09:21 PM
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I'll definitely come to Sami's defense on these boards when its warranted. I don't see anything wrong with the concern or criticisms from other duck fans yet. Did I roll my eyes that the Sami thread was immediately in full effect after the game last night? yes. Sami is under a microscope probably more than any duck player I can remember, but that's because he's a special player with limitations. (for now)

I am very thankful for his effort night in and night out, and most of all, his offensive production so far this year, but his mistakes are growing as fast as his point totals.
I believe as soon as we can get back on track as a team Sami can relax back into his game and not feel obligated to try and do so much, thus hopefully cutting back on mental lapses/mistakes. Its refreshing that someone is trying to put the team on their shoulders through this rough patch in the season. Sami really has come along way very quickly, and I commend him for it.


Last edited by DaDucks*: 11-20-2014 at 12:21 AM.
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11-19-2014, 10:03 PM
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I'm just glad we didn't package him away (not that I'm happy that Boners is gone either) he's coming along nicely. Obviously, some things to work on but he's young and I appreciate the energy he brings to the games.

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11-19-2014, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I am so bad at keeping track of post counts in threads.
What we learned tonight is Sojourn can't count.

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11-19-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDucks View Post
I'll definitely come to Sami's defense on these boards when its warranted. I don't see anything wrong with the concern or criticisms from other duck fans yet. Did I roll my eyes that the Sami thread was immediately in full effect after the game last night? yes. Sami is under a microscope probably more than any duck player I can remember, but that's because he's a special player with limitations. (for now)

I am very thankful for his effort night in and night out, and most of all, his offensive production so far this year, but his mistakes are growing as fast as his point totals.
I believe as soon as we can back on track as a team Sami can relax back into his game and not feel obligated to try and do so much, thus hopefully cutting back on mental lapses/mistakes. Its refreshing that someone is trying to put the team on their shoulders through this rough patch in the season. Sami really has come along way very quickly, and I commend him for it.
I'd argue that Bobby was under the microscope far more intensely, and for a longer period of time.

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11-19-2014, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
I'd argue that Bobby was under the microscope far more intensely, and for a longer period of time.
Bobby was a one-way street on HF. Basically, everyone was against him, other than a few... Sure, u still have a case, but umm check out how many views the last Sami thread had. Seems to be a few more people involved in this case than Bobby's, especially when comparing a star player vs a guy getting his first full year in with the team.

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11-20-2014, 12:10 AM
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Did I roll my eyes that the Sami thread was immediately in full effect after the game last night? yes. Sami is under a microscope probably more than any duck player I can remember, but that's because he's a special player with limitations. (for now)
Vatanists are only forced to defend Sami this actively because it is the haters (If I'm homer, then you are haters) who start making number out of some single mistake. In the other hand, when anything pro Sami is said, everything is ready for few pages of over reacting emotional Sami-pessimism.

To add to those stats, Vatanen had clearly more blocked shots and less turnovers (Clearly means clearly) than Karlsson.


Last edited by Sojourn: 11-20-2014 at 02:21 AM.
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11-20-2014, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
Vatanists are only forced to defend Sami because it is the haters (If I'm homer, then you are haters) who start making number out of some single mistake. If anything pro Sami is said, everything is ready for few pages of over reacting emotional Sami-pessimism.

To add to those stats, Vatanen had clearly more blocked shots and less turnovers (Clearly means clearly) than Karlsson.
Ridiculous misrepresentation and flat out wrong.

People started replying, and discussing, because few posters vehemently defend what is an indefensible mistake. And it's not the first time. He isn't under microscope, no one here hates Sami nor is anyone waiting to jump on his mistakes.


Last edited by Sojourn: 11-20-2014 at 02:21 AM.
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11-20-2014, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
Vatanists are only forced to defend Sami this actively because it is the haters (If I'm homer, then you are haters) who start making number out of some single mistake. In the other hand, when anything pro Sami is said, everything is ready for few pages of over reacting emotional Sami-pessimism.

To add to those stats, Vatanen had clearly more blocked shots and less turnovers (Clearly means clearly) than Karlsson.
Wrong. Usually it is the "Vatanists" who are unable to admit that he can do wrong. Level headed folks understand that he is great offensively, but his defensive transition game and defensive zone game is still lacking. He still has positives, such as his shot blocking, but he had two inexcusable giveaways that lead to the last two goals in the Calgary game, yet people are trying to blame Allen(who literally no one will go out of their way to defend).


Last edited by Sojourn: 11-20-2014 at 02:21 AM.
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11-20-2014, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by duckaroosky View Post
What we learned tonight is Sojourn can't count.
Do you think we should tell him there is counter on each post?

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Old
11-20-2014, 02:07 AM
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Hopefully Vatanen gives up his Finnish citizenship for American soon, post counts would go down by about 737.31%

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Originally Posted by Lord Flashheart View Post
Ridiculous misrepresentation and flat out wrong.

People started replying, and discussing, because few posters vehemently defend what is an indefensible mistake. And it's not the first time. He isn't under microscope, no one here hates Sami nor is anyone waiting to jump on his mistakes.
Nailed it.

People are just looking at Vatanen realistically not through massively rose-tinted glasses.

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11-20-2014, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Garrity View Post
Wrong. Usually it is the "Vatanists" who are unable to admit that he can do wrong. Level headed folks understand that he is great offensively, but his defensive transition game and defensive zone game is still lacking. He still has positives, such as his shot blocking, but he had two inexcusable giveaways that lead to the last two goals in the Calgary game, yet people are trying to blame Allen(who literally no one will go out of their way to defend).
At this point I think it's actually both. There are certain individuals who make ludicrous posts about how good he is, and there are certain other individuals who delight in pointing out every single mistake he makes the instant he makes it and act like he shouldn't leave the bench unless it's a PP - ever. The two groups feed off of each other, and also take the good/bad statements from those who are in the middle as confirmation/criticism of their points of view. Both groups then have to have arguments as to how it's the other guys being unreasonable. It certainly started with the pro-Vatanen group hyperbole, but it's gone well past that at this point.

It's kinda irritating from both parties as far as I'm concerned. Just enjoy his progression and take the good with the bad.

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11-20-2014, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDucks View Post
Bobby was a one-way street on HF. Basically, everyone was against him, other than a few... Sure, u still have a case, but umm check out how many views the last Sami thread had. Seems to be a few more people involved in this case than Bobby's, especially when comparing a star player vs a guy getting his first full year in with the team.
I think if you go back to Ryan's rookie year it was pretty similar. There were (and still are) a fair number of people who wanted Ducks management strung up for mismanaging him. Vatanen also has the distinction of actually being an international and Olympic star. Ryan ran himself out of town with his play and inability to not talk to the media.

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11-20-2014, 02:46 AM
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Let`s all go to the main board and say how stupid Ottawa fans are for not agreeing trading Vatanen for Karlsson 1 on 1

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11-20-2014, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
Let`s all go to the main board and say how stupid Ottawa fans are for not agreeing trading Vatanen for Karlsson 1 on 1
Why would Anaheim want to trade better player to Ottawa?

Uhmm... Ok, ok. Don't want to ruin the fun, but as you may have noticed, not all of us vatanists are seriously suggesting that Vatanen is better than Karlsson. It has mostly been an in-joke in Finnish hockey forums, and if there ever is any way to make it look like that (and now it's actually pretty easy just to point out some statistics without any regard to actual games), we'll make it happen. "Vatanen blocking more shots than Karlsson" = Vatanen >>> Karlsson. "Vatanen had more penalties than Karlsson" = Karlsson is soft and Vatanen a badbutt, etc.

So this was kinda FYI.

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11-20-2014, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sigismund View Post
Why would Anaheim want to trade better player to Ottawa?

Uhmm... Ok, ok. Don't want to ruin the fun, but as you may have noticed, not all of us vatanists are seriously suggesting that Vatanen is better than Karlsson. It has mostly been an in-joke in Finnish hockey forums, and if there ever is any way to make it look like that (and now it's actually pretty easy just to point out some statistics without any regard to actual games), we'll make it happen. "Vatanen blocking more shots than Karlsson" = Vatanen >>> Karlsson. "Vatanen had more penalties than Karlsson" = Karlsson is soft and Vatanen a badbutt, etc.

So this was kinda FYI.
I was also being sarcastic.

This overreacting on Vatanen can only lead to more negativity to Vatanen for non-finnish fans (''Oh, Vatman had a great game, prepare for the ****storm that will be in the internet'').
I understand being excited about your nations players (i do it too) but at some point enough is enough.

No offense! (something, something... joke about Vatanens great offense (it really is good))

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11-20-2014, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
To add to those stats, Vatanen had clearly more blocked shots and less turnovers (Clearly means clearly) than Karlsson.
Those stats aren't a good way to quantify defensive ability (and the tracking of giveaways is flawed at best). Karlsson is miles better positionally, at defensive reads and with his stick. He also has the puck a lot more which will lead to a higher number of giveaways.

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11-20-2014, 04:50 AM
  #19
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One problem seems to be that many posters are unable to see the difference between the mistakes and their consequences. In CGY game Vatanen played defensively quite average game for him: mostly ok, but made some mistakes. This time almost every mistake just happened to lead to a goal, which is abnormal. In an average game those three scoring chances would have lead maybe to one goal. Sami's mistakes weren't even in top-20 of his mistakes this season. Even that pass to Allen was not as bad as it looked, it just lead to very unfortunate outcome from Ducks point-of-view.

The point is that Sami didn't play defensively any worse than in average this season, but unfortunately some mistakes or "mistakes" lead to goals. Still I think it's better that Vatanen is now a productive offensive threat, because those defensive lapses are something that are easier to work on, so Vatanen looks quite promising to me.


Last edited by roto: 11-20-2014 at 05:01 AM.
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11-20-2014, 06:42 AM
  #20
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Hi! Another Finnish poster chiming in. Some of you may remember me (or not?) because as a JYP fan I used to regularly post updates for you guys about Sami when he still played in Finland. I always believed that he would became an NHL player some day and have to say that I'm really happy now that he has done just that and proven me right!

However I'm really astonished how much discussion there is about him here! Well, he has always been a very noticeable player, and I mean that as both a good and bad thing. However, I feel that BOTH his good plays AND bad plays get exaggerated. He is certainly not a very good defensive player or better than Karlsson (Though I feel that people claiming that must be joking and that Eenok among others was clearly a joke/troll poster. Repair your sarcasm detectors ) but not a mere PP specialist either. He is what it is, a useful player when used right, and I'm honestly a bit sad that there is such a controversy around him. I peg that you understand that we Finnish posters are not this "fanatic" about every Finnish player, it just so happened that Sami dominated the Finnish league as rarely (never?) before seen from the D position. That kind of play has a tendency to create a lot of "fan boys", don't you think? I know we can be annoying at times but don't hate the player because of his fans, please.

I hope Anaheim fans enjoy having him anyways and we can start to evaluate him more fairly, moving away from both extremes. Good luck to the Ducks from a Wild fan!

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11-20-2014, 06:58 AM
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Sami is 5th or 6th defenseman who is really good PP player. I don't understand all the defenders, because it's about the team, Anaheim. There is nothing wrong about saying he had bad last game defensively and he was responsible about two goals. I really like Vatanen and I hope he succeeds. He can be better than he was in the last game. Maybe few years and he is at least second pairing defenseman. I can't believe how some people think some Ducks fans hate Vatanen because they criticized him when he plays poorly.

I am not a fan of Anaheim or Vatanen.

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11-20-2014, 10:25 AM
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I have yet to decide if the Vatanen ----> Karlsson posts are serious, or sarcastic?

Being a fan of both Ottawa and Anaheim, and also being extremely critical of defencemen that screw up defensively, I can tell you that Vatanen would be -15 with like 5 points, if he traded places with Karlsson.

In Ottawa, Karlsson is the catalyst for pretty much all the offence. Even when he doesn't get any points, he still usually makes the breakout pass or simply skate the puck up the ise, creating room for everyone else.

Ottawa doesn't have a Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler up the ice - and no Lindholm, Beauchemin or Fowler on defence. Heck, their second best D (Methot) hasn't even played yet this season. Just wrap your head around this, total trainwrecks like Gryba, Phillips, Wiercioch and Borowiecki have spots in their defence. None of them would be in the top-8 among defencemen in Anaheim.

The best forwards are Turris, MacArthur and perhaps Hoffman, who is a rookie, not getting much icetime. Ryan is struggling, Zibanejad even more so.

The difference between these teams is huge, so talking about Vatanen being even close to Karlsson is laughable. If Karlsson had played on a top team in the NHL, his stats would've been totally different. His ******* defence partner the last few games has been BOROWIECKI, an average defenceman in the AHL.

And if you ask the guys in Ottawa's forum, they will tell you that I have been extremely critical of Karlsson this season, so I'm as far from a fan boy as can be.

Bottom line.

Vatanen is/should be a third pairing offensive PP-specialist.

Karlsson is a #1 who carries one of the worst (without him they would be) teams in the NHL.

Having said that, I hope they both do really well this season, since I'm a fan of both teams.

Both their coaches are incompetent though

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Old
11-20-2014, 11:48 AM
  #23
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Posted by the Joeman in the other thread:

See the whole problem with this constant Vatanen argument is that over-zealous Finnish fans have soured everyone else's opinion on him and we're quick to magnify his mistakes because of it (the same can be said for Etem and to some extend Gibson). I'm not trying to exonerate him, he made mistakes that lead to those two goals. But he was far from the main reasons those goals happened. It's useless to keep arguing with you because you're just going to agree with the majority. But not nearly enough blame is being thrown at the two players that were the main reason all three of those goals were scored.


The fan boys get annoying, but that is irrelevant from anything I said about this game. All I said was Vatanen was instrumental in two of our goals, and two of theirs. I think that's 100% accurate. He's almost solely to blame for the first one. The other one, there is others who definitely contributed, but if blame had to be given to one player on that play, it's Vatanen IMO.

Attacking my hockey sense is stupid. Especially if you're trying to defend him on that first goal. There's no denying that's almost all on him. Yeah, others could have possibly done things better, but that's still pretty much all on Vatanen. Even though I think the notion that Sami isn't almost solely to blame for that first goal is entirely false and struggle with any justifications that suggest otherwise, it would be dumb for me to attack you and say you have no or bad hockey sense because you simply disagree with the evaluation of the play. There's been plenty of evidence to support my thought process in these scenarios.

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11-20-2014, 02:13 PM
  #24
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Vatanen giveth, and He taketh away. I don't know why we can't just treat him as a very talented, flawed player. He has a role for a reason, and he's very effective within that role, with some risks. Increase his role, you expose the team to greater risk. He's just now getting to the point where what he brings on offense is worth the risk he presents on D. That will be even more true as he gains some wisdom with his experience.

Sandis Ozolinsh carved out a really nice, long, and productive career (before the substance abuse issues) as exactly this kind of player and he has a bunch of team hardware to show for it. So Sami really doesn't have to be a perfect 2-way defender to be useful, or even essential. Or to be above criticism. Far from it.

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11-20-2014, 02:45 PM
  #25
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Vatanen giveth, and He taketh away. I don't know why we can't just treat him as a very talented, flawed player.
I think Anaheim want's to see if Vatanen can grow as a player with added responsibility (better QOC and more even ZS%). Vatanen has had MORE defensive zone starts than offensive looking at 5on5 close situations. His Corsi has stayed surprisingly high. The problem is that the mistakes he makes usually end up being good scoring chances, but his PDO (and on ice SV%) is relatively good for a D-man with defensive limitations. Maybe some of it is good luck and we are bound to see some more bad games from Vatanen like the Calgary game the other night.

Vatanen will lose some games for Anaheim with his defensive lapses, but he can win some of those lost points back. The point is that playing him a bit more than really necessary his game can evolve to the next level where he really is a good addition to the line up. He's closing on his prime but he still could have a higher upside than what he has shown in the NHL so far.

Fowler, Lindholm and Vatanen could all still be finding their game. The thought of them all hitting their ceilings..

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