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Who is the 5th best NHL player of all time?

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Old
02-23-2013, 03:31 PM
  #126
Fantomas
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Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
They're older.
I remember arguing with a friend about Sundin v Henri Richard, as to who was better.

I feel that Sundin was better. But my friend insisted upon Richard and made some cogent points in regards to Henri's placement among his era's scoring leaders.

However, I am bothered by this approach to argument. Sundin played in an era in which virtually all the world's top players were NHLers. A league at its deepest, most multicultural and toughest in which to play.

I think it is silly to equate a top-10 scoring finish in Henri Richard's days with the same in today's game. There are so many great players today that one has to be truly special to finish so high in points.

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02-23-2013, 03:32 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's not at that level. Lafleur, Messier, Esposito, Yzerman... those are better comparisons.

Jagr's not at the Richard, Hull, Harvey, Beliveau level.
You think Messier or Yzerman are better than Jagr?
Did you watch Jagr in his prime?

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Old
02-23-2013, 03:32 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
I remember arguing with a friend about Sundin v Henri Richard, as to who was better.

I feel that Sundin was better. But my friend insisted upon Richard and made some cogent points in regards to Henri's placement among his era's scoring leaders.

However, I am bothered by this approach to argument. Sundin played in an era in which virtually all the world's top players were NHLers. A league at its deepest, most multicultural and toughest in which to play.

I think it is silly to equate a top-10 scoring finish in Henri Richard's days with the same in today's game. There are so many great players today that one has to be truly special to finish so high in points
.
I would argue the exact opposite is true.

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02-23-2013, 03:33 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Let's see then...the younger players are better than the "ancient ones", so...

Chris Chelios over Rocket Richard.
Teemu Selanne over Jean Beliveau.
Jaromir Jagr over Bobby Hull.
Nick Lidstrom over Doug Harvey.

Not a chance.

With this thinking, I guess A-Rod is better than Babe Ruth and Lou Gerhig, too.

Why not Lidstrom over Doug Harvey? I think one can make an argument.

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02-23-2013, 03:35 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Mario has case to being anywhere 1-4. But he definitely has the strongest arguments going on for him being the 4th.

To the OP, i think Bobby Hull was the 5th best. Best goal-scorer of all-time.

But there is a clear gap between the "big 4" and rest of the top-10.

Messier, Yzerman, Brodeur etc. don't belong there.
There is no argument by which one can put Lemieux 4th among the big four, let alone a "strongest" one. If you value longevity and hold it against him, Orr was even less durable, so he suffers doubly. If you value excellence above longevity, Howe showed the least of that among these four by a substantial margin.

However you rank these 4, there's a case to put Mario anywhere between 1st and 3rd. There's no case for putting him 4th.

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02-23-2013, 03:35 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I would argue the exact opposite is true.
Would Esposito have as easy a time winning art ross trophies if all the Soviet, Czech and Swedish stars were around?

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02-23-2013, 03:35 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Corto View Post
You think Messier or Yzerman are better than Jagr?
Did you watch Jagr in his prime?
Two of the greatest all time leaders in the history of the game...or an offensive, coach-killing dynamo who whined everywhere he went about power play time, difficult practices, etc.?

I'll take the leaders anyday.

If Jagr had played with the kind of class he has shown in the past two years, yeah, maybe he is in the conversation. But he didn't. He was a team cancer as often as he was its best player.

Same with a guy like Lindros (just to prove I am not completely biased towards Canadians).

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Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Would Esposito have as easy a time winning art ross trophies if all the Soviet, Czech and Swedish stars were around?
Yes. Look what he did in the '72 Summit Series.

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02-23-2013, 03:37 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Two of the greatest all time leaders in the history of the game...or an offensive, coach-killing dynamo who whined everywhere he went about power play time, difficult practices, etc.?

I'll take the leaders anyday.

If Jagr had played with the kind of class he has shown in the past two years, yeah, maybe he is in the conversation. But he didn't. He was a team cancer as often as he was its best player.
Jagr is in the conversation. He doesn't leave the conversation simply because you think he should.

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02-23-2013, 03:38 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Jagr is in the conversation. He doesn't leave the conversation simply because you think he should.
Nor is he in it because a few fans of floaters with one-way ability who whined his whole career like him.

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02-23-2013, 03:39 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by blue bleeder 24-7 View Post
I totally disagree with this thought. We're not talking about most legendary players, just flat out best. And Chelios, Selanne, Lidstrom and Jagr all exhibited certain attributes that make them just as likely to be 5th "best" as Bobby Hull or a few other older players.


Ive seen both Bobby Hull & Chelios in their primes on the Hawks. As great as Chelios was, Bobby Hull is in a whole other class as a player. He was a truly special player.

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02-23-2013, 03:39 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Yes. Look what he did in the '72 Summit Series.
This is not logical. I am not disputing Esposito's greatness.

I am saying that a deeper league makes it mathematically more difficult for a player like Esposito to win the art ross trophy.

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02-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Nor is he in it because a few fans of floaters with one-way ability who whined his whole career like him.
You're hard to take seriously.

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02-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #138
jigglysquishy
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I have Jagr ahead of both Messier and Yzerman, but I understand why someone would have them ahead of Jagr.

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02-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
This is not logical. I am not disputing Esposito's greatness.

I am saying that a deeper league makes it mathematically more difficult for a player like Esposito to win the art ross trophy.
Then why does the cream always rise to the top now? Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin etc.?

All you have now compared to then is 400 more third and fourth liners, not 400 more star players.

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02-23-2013, 03:41 PM
  #140
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Hasek.

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02-23-2013, 03:43 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Then why does the cream always rise to the top now? Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin etc.?

All you have now compared to then is 400 more third and fourth liners, not 400 more star players.
You're missing my point.

An NHL with Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Maltsev in it is deeper than the one without them. This would have an effect on the way players would be perceived in history.

Players like Henri Richard, Esposito, etc.

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02-23-2013, 03:44 PM
  #142
fly4apuckguy
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Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
You're missing my point.

An NHL with Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Maltsev in it is deeper than the one without them. This would have an effect on the way players would be perceived in history.

Players like Henri Richard, Esposito, etc.
That is possible. My wife says this to me all the time.

You may be right. We'll never know, though.

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02-23-2013, 03:49 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
You may be right. We'll never know, though.
I think it's obvious. Take the Euros out of the NHL and North American stars would have more top-10 finishes.

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02-23-2013, 03:49 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Let's see then...the younger players are better than the "ancient ones", so...

Chris Chelios over Rocket Richard.
Teemu Selanne over Jean Beliveau.
Jaromir Jagr over Bobby Hull.
Nick Lidstrom over Doug Harvey.
Chris Chelios over Rocket Richard. NEVER
Teemu Selanne over Jean Beliveau. coin toss
Jaromir Jagr over Bobby Hull. SURE
Nick Lidstrom over Doug Harvey. coin toss

yes

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02-23-2013, 03:52 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I have Jagr ahead of both Messier and Yzerman, but I understand why someone would have them ahead of Jagr.
messier/stevie above jagr??

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02-23-2013, 03:56 PM
  #146
jigglysquishy
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Originally Posted by steveott View Post
messier/stevie above jagr??
I could see an argument for Messier. Namely, he's probably the most accomplished playoff man of the past forty years and had two Harts.

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02-23-2013, 04:03 PM
  #147
steveott
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I could see an argument for Messier. Namely, he's probably the most accomplished playoff man of the past forty years and had two Harts.
this is all about EDM inflation. take a look at Glenn Anderson stats and you will understand...

he was 60 pts player after leaving EDM (before DPE)

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02-23-2013, 04:08 PM
  #148
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The Hockey News - Top 100 List

Quote:
1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk
10.Eddie Shore

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:08 PM
  #149
Evincar
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Originally Posted by steveott View Post
Chris Chelios over Rocket Richard. NEVER
Teemu Selanne over Jean Beliveau. coin toss
Jaromir Jagr over Bobby Hull. SURE
Nick Lidstrom over Doug Harvey. coin toss

yes
Selanne over Beliveau no way lol. I would still pick Hull over Jagr.

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:12 PM
  #150
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Hope no one made the joke yet

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