HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who is the 5th best NHL player of all time?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-23-2013, 10:37 PM
  #176
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,932
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post

I wasn't ignoring WHA (but should have been), I guess if you do it's closer. Either way Hull fares better in Vs2 scores which I have the benefit of looking at via the ATD. Richard's best 6 vs2 seasons aren't really better than Lindsay's. I just think there's a small but noticeable gap between he and Hull, and throw in Jagr and I think it's safe to have Richard outside the top 5.
I realize Elmer Lach was a great player, but in his prime, Richard didn't play with anyone nearly as good offensively as Gordie Howe or Red Kelly.

Richard also had to share even strength ice time with Geoffrion for basically the entire 1950s, while the second line LW in Detroit was Marty Pavelich.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 10:46 PM
  #177
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I realize Elmer Lach was a great player, but in his prime, Richard didn't play with anyone nearly as good offensively as Gordie Howe or Red Kelly.

Richard also had to share even strength ice time with Geoffrion for basically the entire 1950s, while the second line LW in Detroit was Marty Pavelich.
Of course, I'm not saying Richard should be on Lindsay's level, I'm saying that they ended up with similar 6 year primes, which to me doesn't bode all that well for Richard's #5 candidacy. Hull on the other hand did distance himself, and I think his "on-paper" offensive resume is arguably better than Beliveau's too.

If it's not, why would people ever consider him superior? Which isn't a crazy opinion at all.

Rob Scuderi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 10:54 PM
  #178
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,932
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Of course, I'm not saying Richard should be on Lindsay's level, I'm saying that they ended up with similar 6 year primes, which to me doesn't bode all that well for Richard's #5 candidacy. Hull on the other hand did distance himself, and I think his "on-paper" offensive resume is arguably better than Beliveau's too.

If it's not, why would people ever consider him superior? Which isn't a crazy opinion at all.
Well, I'm disagreeing that their 6 year primes are similar, since Lindsay played with Howe when Howe was playing at a generational level and with the best offensive defenseman to come around until Bobby Orr.

I also think the V2 metric might start to break down when we are talking about someone like Maurice Richard who finished exactly 2nd 5 times. What are the vs2 scores for these guys anyway if you have them handy?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 11:06 PM
  #179
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well, I'm disagreeing that their 6 year primes are similar, since Lindsay played with Howe when Howe was playing at a generational level and with the best offensive defenseman to come around until Bobby Orr.

I also think the V2 metric might start to break down when we are talking about someone like Maurice Richard who finished exactly 2nd 5 times. What are the vs2 scores for these guys anyway if you have them handy?
Very, very possible.

I should probably recalculate them, which I don't want to do now, as the ones I have only give Richard 4 years of a 100 score. Perhaps I can ham up the war years to save face?

Let me put it this way, I think if you want to include Richard with Hull and Beliveau for forwards then you should strongly consider Jagr too, moody years and all. I get The Rocket really was that good in the playoffs, but I think Jagr really was that good in the regular season and generally he did his part in the playoffs. My difficulty separating them is really the sticking point with me on the Rocket.

Rob Scuderi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 11:15 PM
  #180
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 23,544
vCash: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, I don't take any list that doesn't have Howe in the top 4 seriously. I think of the traditional "top 4," Mario is the only one with a case to drop out, but to do that, you really have to put a huge emphasis on durability and longevity.
A few years ago when I researched and made my own top 50 list, I had Howe #1.

canucksfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 11:36 PM
  #181
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,133
vCash: 500
I always put Beliveau at #5. I realize the margin between he and Hull, Harvey, Richard and etc. are rather close. I like everything Beliveau brought to the table. He was an all around offensive machine, could score and pass as a threat, was physical enough, responsible defensively, probably the best leader in NHL history, a winner, a clutch goal scorer and has the hardware to back it up. The big 4 is clear cut to me, but if I am choosing a 5th player it is Beliveau.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 11:46 PM
  #182
Ogie Goldthorpe
Piloted Ogre Hog
 
Ogie Goldthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NS via BC
Posts: 2,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by THEALLKNOWING View Post
Gretzky played in the late 70's, in the WHA during the 78/79 season. Combining the WHA and the NHL at the time was a form of expansion.
Gretzky only played 80 games in the WHA... and combining the WHA and the NHL was more a form of retraction as there were 6 viable WHA franchises at the end of the 1979 season, and only 4 came over the NHL.

Ogie Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 12:45 AM
  #183
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash35 View Post
I like to look at how much did you dominate the players you played againt. For me 5 and 6 are easy, The Rocket and Hasek. Richard was scoring 50 when everyone else was scoring 20 and no goalie ever intimidated players like Hasek did.
Richard scored 50 once, and he didn't lead the league in points that year or win the Hart; Elmer Lach did. Elmer Lach was his center. Lach scored 26 goals and 80 points to Richard's 50 and 73. It was also a war year, so many players (including Boston's Frank Brimsek, the best goaltender in the league and one of the ten best of All-Time) were not with their team.

Richard's 50-in-50 in 44-45 is a nice bit of history, but it's not useful for legitimate scoring comparisons; using hockey-reference.com's adjusted stats his 50 goals in 50 games come up as 51 in 82; equal to what he did two years later. He has a 54 in 49-50 followed by a 53, and three consecutive 50s from 53-54 to 55-56.

So he has seven 50-goal seasons using adjusted scoring. Now let's compare that to someone more recent. Let's take a look at Alex Ovechkin. Using just Ovechkin's first five seasons, we have...

Actual: 52, 46, 65, 56, 50
Adjusted: 52, 48, 72, 59, 55

He finished 3, 4, 1, 1, 3 in goals.

Ovechkin obviously doesn't have a large enough sample size to do a full comparison against Richard. But the sample size we do have from his first five years suggests either he was playing at a level rarely ver seen, or Richard shouldn't be in this thread.

Quote:
It got to the point where players looked defeated against him and would only shot if there was a screen or a potential tip in.
Yeah, players were hesitant to shoot on Hasek. Just look at his low shot count.

Quote:
For the record I've never understood the hype about Lidstrom. Yes he was the best overall defenceman of the last decade but his offensive numbers weren't good enough to put him anywhere near the top 10 players ever.
By that logic, your all-time greatest goalies list should be made entirely of goalies who have played in the last few years. I mean, Tim Thomas was posting sv% numbers 40-50 points higher than what a prime Grant Fuhr did. Thinking again... the league average was higher than prime Grant Fuhr! Man, dude must have sucked hardcore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sykur View Post
People often say this but they forget to point out that nobody else was putting up 200 point seasons. Yes, it was a weak era, and yes, it was a goal-scoring bonanza, and yes, a lot of mediocre players put up lofty numbers, but Gretzky was still scoring 60% more than the second best player in the league.

There has yet to be seen that level of statistical dominance from anybody in ANY sport.
Donald Bradman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's not at that level. Lafleur, Messier, Esposito, Yzerman... those are better comparisons.

Jagr's not at the Richard, Hull, Harvey, Beliveau level.
Yzerman, Hull, Beliveau, and Jagr are the next four forwards after Gretzky, Howe, and Lemieux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Frankly, I'm not sure what it is about Richard's or Beliveau's resumes that separate them so much from Jagr.

Maybe someone can explain. I don't see it.

Please don't say Stanley Cup victories.
It's that they played for Montreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tesplen View Post
Maurice 'Rocket' Richard



Messier isn't even top-10 or maybe even top-15 for me. Guys like Hull, Beliveau, Yzerman, Sakic, Lafleur, Jagr, Hasek, Bossy etc. all rank above him in my opinion. I just can't look past all of Messier's mediocre years that he had in his career in comparison to those guys. Cumulative point totals, winning with the most stacked team in history and New York sports lore aren't everything when deciding individual greatness.


*ducks from Oilers/Rangers fans*
You forgot to list Trottier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick View Post
Denis Potvin
He's not even top-five among defensemen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I would argue the exact opposite is true.
There were more major pro teams when Pocket Rocket played, a worse feeder structure, and worse development and training in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveott View Post
Chris Chelios over Rocket Richard. NEVER
Teemu Selanne over Jean Beliveau. coin toss
Jaromir Jagr over Bobby Hull. SURE
Nick Lidstrom over Doug Harvey. coin toss

yes
Richard over Chelios by a fair bit.
Beliveau over Selanne easily.
Hull over Jagr by a bit.
Lidstrom over Harvey, by a small margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Beliveau, Harvey, or Hull.

You could make a case for Bourque or Shore.
I'd love to hear the case for Shore being better than any "mortal" forward, any goaltender, and any other defenseman but Orr.

Quote:
Rocket and Jagr don't belong. I wouldn't put Roy or Hasek in the top five either.

Nobody else should be mentioned. Mikita and Lidstrom aren't quite there, and Messier's not even the 5th best center of all time. Yzerman coming up is also strange.
Yzerman fits perfectly fine; he had the highest offensive peak of any player not named Gretzky or Lemieux and he also was a quite capable defensive player. In the "no Gretzky/Lemieux" universe, it's entirely possible Yzerman wins the 1988, 1989, and potentially even the 1993 Harts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I realize Elmer Lach was a great player, but in his prime, Richard didn't play with anyone nearly as good offensively as Gordie Howe or Red Kelly.

Richard also had to share even strength ice time with Geoffrion for basically the entire 1950s, while the second line LW in Detroit was Marty Pavelich.
Elmer Lach's best comparable, to me, is Sid Abel. Which is convenient for Richard/Howe comparisons. One thing you left out, though, was the presence of Toe Blake through the 47-48 season. In 48-49 Blake was gone, and Lach missed half the season. Richard still failed to lead the team in scoring, losing to Billy Reay.


Last edited by pdd: 02-24-2013 at 12:58 AM.
pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 08:37 AM
  #184
Lshap
Registered User
 
Lshap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by THEALLKNOWING View Post
We must be peers in age because I am old enough to have actually seen both Howe, Hull and Orr play, albeit on TV. I did not see Rocket Richard play.

It is easy to equate lofty numbers with how good a player is, but it doesn't take into consideration the era of hockey. There is a reason why the Canadian won a lot of Cups, they got the best Quebec players back in early days of hockey. Go look at the rosters, and compare them with the rest of the teams at the time. Beyond his skill level, there is a reason why Gretzky put-up the numbers, he played in the absolute weakest era of hockey (expansion, very few non-Canadian players at the time). All one has to do is go back and look at some of the statistics, the number of 100 point or 50 goal seasons, each year. Edmonton alone would have a handful of 100 point scorers. A good example of "numbers" is Phil Houseley. Big, but it hasn't gotten him to the HHOF yet.

I have no problem with Gordie, Mario and Wayne being considered the top-three forwards. BTW, IMO, Mario a better player than Gretzky. Orr transformed on the back-end, and is the only defenseman I have seen, who could actually take-over a game. He is without a doubt the greatest defenseman, and I have been watching hockey since the early 60's. If you are going to have a top-five, may as well have another defenseman, and that would be Lidstrom. If Orr is #1, Lidstrom truly is #1A.

Hull was a good player, and a transformational one for the game of hockey. Blazing speed, plus he was likely the first one to effectively employ a curved stick. He could really bring-it. His brother Dennis had some of the same qualities, just not the the same level. I wouldn't put Bobby in the top-five, but do consider him one of the elite NHLers of all-time.
This has probably already been called out by others, but in case it hasn't, please note that this whole 'french conspiracy' thing was a total myth. It didn't happen. I don't have the interest in copying the links, but it'll take you about 20 seconds to find articles explaining what actually happened and debunking this imaginary fairy-tale that the Habs grabbed all the french stars.

Lshap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 08:54 AM
  #185
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,772
vCash: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
This has probably already been called out by others, but in case it hasn't, please note that this whole 'french conspiracy' thing was a total myth. It didn't happen. I don't have the interest in copying the links, but it'll take you about 20 seconds to find articles explaining what actually happened and debunking this imaginary fairy-tale that the Habs grabbed all the french stars.
I might have missed it, but was'nt it mostly french canadians that the Canadiens did'nt want that "got away"?

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 10:55 AM
  #186
Lshap
Registered User
 
Lshap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I might have missed it, but was'nt it mostly french canadians that the Canadiens did'nt want that "got away"?
If you mean the Habs had some sort of first pick of French players, no. That's part of this myth that Montreal had access to any french star they wanted. Every player - french and english - was signed by whichever team found them first. There was no draft. Scouts were sent wherever the team perceived there was talent and signed whoever they liked. Boston found Bobby Orr in a small Ontario town and signed him when he was about 12 years old! Montreal obviously had more scouts near home in Quebec and therefore found more french players, but didn't have any proprietary rights over other teams. They had more french players only because they looked for them and found them, fair and square. If the team had been given any extra status by the league, guys like Jean Ratelle, Bernie Parent, Gilbert Perreault, Richard Martin, etc, etc, would've all been Habs.

For a handful of years in the 40s (I think) and then in the 60s, the league added a 'draft' of leftover players who nobody had signed. Of these 'leftovers', Montreal was given a first-shot at Quebec-born players. That's the genesis of the whole "French-Conspiracy" -- that draft of second-tier players where Montreal was indeed given a break. But here's the bottom line: Not one of those french players from the 40's played even one minute for Montreal. Not one. And in the 60s they got Marc Tardiff and Rejean Houle. Tardiff left to play in the WHA, while Houle was a decent 3rd-line forward. So really, that's it, the whole French-Canadian Conspiracy comes down to Rejean Houle!

Lshap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 02:50 PM
  #187
Crosbyfan
Registered User
 
Crosbyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,590
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
If you mean the Habs had some sort of first pick of French players, no. That's part of this myth that Montreal had access to any french star they wanted. Every player - french and english - was signed by whichever team found them first. There was no draft. Scouts were sent wherever the team perceived there was talent and signed whoever they liked. Boston found Bobby Orr in a small Ontario town and signed him when he was about 12 years old! Montreal obviously had more scouts near home in Quebec and therefore found more french players, but didn't have any proprietary rights over other teams. They had more french players only because they looked for them and found them, fair and square. If the team had been given any extra status by the league, guys like Jean Ratelle, Bernie Parent, Gilbert Perreault, Richard Martin, etc, etc, would've all been Habs.

For a handful of years in the 40s (I think) and then in the 60s, the league added a 'draft' of leftover players who nobody had signed. Of these 'leftovers', Montreal was given a first-shot at Quebec-born players. That's the genesis of the whole "French-Conspiracy" -- that draft of second-tier players where Montreal was indeed given a break. But here's the bottom line: Not one of those french players from the 40's played even one minute for Montreal. Not one. And in the 60s they got Marc Tardiff and Rejean Houle. Tardiff left to play in the WHA, while Houle was a decent 3rd-line forward. So really, that's it, the whole French-Canadian Conspiracy comes down to Rejean Houle!
Every kid in Quebec wanting to wear the "bleu blanc rouge" probably had more effect on getting them signed. Imagine a Maple Leaf Scout showing up at your door in Trois-Rivières looking to sign up your kid...

The only thing he might see signed is a restraining order if he comes back after the first time he is run out of town!


Last edited by Crosbyfan: 02-24-2013 at 03:42 PM.
Crosbyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 04:22 PM
  #188
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corto View Post
You think Messier or Yzerman are better than Jagr?
Did you watch Jagr in his prime?
Yes, and he was amazing.

I don't have a problem if somebody takes Jagr over either of them or Sakic for that matter. I think they are all in that 3rd tier along with Lafleur and Esposito. How you want to rank them is up to you. But he's not up there with Hull, Harvey, Richard, Shore etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I have Jagr ahead of both Messier and Yzerman, but I understand why someone would have them ahead of Jagr.
I wouldn't, but I undestand those who would. Personally I had Yzerman as the best player out of that trio. Best career? Maybe not but best player. Played with nobody for most of his prime and was the best scorer of his generation not named Lemieux or Gretz. 155 with Gerrard Gallant as your linemate is mind boggling. I don't care if it was the 80s...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Beliveau, Harvey, or Hull.

You could make a case for Bourque or Shore. Rocket and Jagr don't belong. I wouldn't put Roy or Hasek in the top five either.

Nobody else should be mentioned. Mikita and Lidstrom aren't quite there, and Messier's not even the 5th best center of all time. Yzerman coming up is also strange.
Richard belongs. Was the league's top scorer in history at one point and was a goal machine. Also ridiculously clutch in the playoffs. He comes in 2nd in the scoring race usually by one point unless it's losing to Gordie Howe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If it's NHL-only and we can't count Bobby Hull's WHA years, I think the case for Beliveau becomes stronger.

Without counting Hull's WHA years, Richard beats him in longevity. I don't know why you think Harvey belongs, but Richard doesn't.

If we're looking at points only:

Bobby Hull: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
Maurice Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Remove equal finishes and you have:

Hull: 1, 1, 1, 9
Richard, 2, 2, 3, 3

Obviously this ignores Hull's WHA career.
Hull was awesome. Again, no problem with him at number five. I'd take Richard as he was Mr. Clutch in the playoffs but Hull is a fine choice. So is Doug Harvey...
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Howe was more dominant and for much longer. Howe was top ten in scoring twenty times. Most players are lucky to player 20 years in the NHL yet, Howe dominated for over 20 years. He had no weaknesses. He was physical, great playoff performer and a great two way player.
Gordie Howe is one of very few players who I could see being argued as the best player of all time.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-24-2013 at 05:16 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 05:48 PM
  #189
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,599
vCash: 500
I have Hasek ranked 5th all-time, followed by Harvey, Beliveau and Hull.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 05:57 PM
  #190
Jafar
Keep it logical
 
Jafar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,900
vCash: 50
I have to go with Doug Harvey.

Jafar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 07:34 AM
  #191
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 35,476
vCash: 500
I have Hasek as my #5 all-time, although I know that's an unconventional minority opinion (although one that I'm surprised several other posters in the thread share).

The next tier for me consists of Beliveau, Hull, Harvey, Bourque, and Roy, then a large group including Richard, Jagr, Lidstrom, Shore, Plante, Mikita, Mozenz, and several others who are all really close.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 08:16 AM
  #192
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,373
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by THEALLKNOWING View Post
Gretzky played in the late 70's, in the WHA during the 78/79 season. Combining the WHA and the NHL at the time was a form of expansion.
The number of professional teams in NA contracted with the merger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadCat View Post
Bryan Trottier ( Trots ) Trottier was described as a forward possessing an all around game including ruggedness . 7 rings 4 as a players 3 as assistant coach
Love Trottier and at his peak he was one of the best hockey players ever.

But his longevity isn't good enough to crack the top level of players of all time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maaxse View Post
Anyone who doesn't say Maurice Richard is daft.

I'd make the argument that while he isn't the best hockey player (Lemieux, Orr, Gretzky are better), he is the greatest. In hockey, no one will never carry the hopes of a whole culture like the Rocket did.
Your culture argument just reinforces that while the Rocket was a great great hockey player, the legend is more than the player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KesselLooksLikeRadar View Post




Hope no one made the joke yet
I know you're kidding but I'd be surprised if a lot of people didn't agree with you.

That being said, no, not close.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
One of: Beliveau, Hull, Hasek, Jagr.
I think good arguments could be made for all of them for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
That decline actually correlates precisely with the departure of Gretzky.
They still had two 100+ pt centermen for Kurri and Anderson to play with so I'm not sure why you think that.

And Anderson usually played with Messier (at least up until Gretzky departed) anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I have Hasek as my #5 all-time, although I know that's an unconventional minority opinion (although one that I'm surprised several other posters in the thread share).

The next tier for me consists of Beliveau, Hull, Harvey, Bourque, and Roy, then a large group including Richard, Jagr, Lidstrom, Shore, Plante, Mikita, Mozenz, and several others who are all really close.
Hasek's peak was so crazy good and his longevity as an upper level hockey player is huge too. I think all that hurts him is his length of NHL time and being a flake who quit in the playoffs a couple times.

I think the argument for 5th could realistically be made for like a dozen players.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 09:10 AM
  #193
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
I have Hasek ranked 5th all-time, followed by Harvey, Beliveau and Hull.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I have Hasek as my #5 all-time, although I know that's an unconventional minority opinion (although one that I'm surprised several other posters in the thread share).

The next tier for me consists of Beliveau, Hull, Harvey, Bourque, and Roy, then a large group including Richard, Jagr, Lidstrom, Shore, Plante, Mikita, Mozenz, and several others who are all really close.
I have Hasek 7th, but I see no problem if someone wants to rank him 5th.

My top ten includes the big four, Yzerman, Bobby Hull, Hasek, Beliveau, Jagr, and Lidstrom. After that my top 15 is rounded out by Doug Harvey, Ray Bourque, Jacques Plante, Maurice Richard, and Patrick Roy. I figure pretty much anyone from that group, as well as quite a few others not even on the list could *realistically* fit into that 5 slot. Some better than others, of course.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 10:52 AM
  #194
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Richard scored 50 once, and he didn't lead the league in points that year or win the Hart; Elmer Lach did. Elmer Lach was his center. Lach scored 26 goals and 80 points to Richard's 50 and 73. It was also a war year, so many players (including Boston's Frank Brimsek, the best goaltender in the league and one of the ten best of All-Time) were not with their team.

Richard's 50-in-50 in 44-45 is a nice bit of history, but it's not useful for legitimate scoring comparisons; using hockey-reference.com's adjusted stats his 50 goals in 50 games come up as 51 in 82; equal to what he did two years later. He has a 54 in 49-50 followed by a 53, and three consecutive 50s from 53-54 to 55-56.

So he has seven 50-goal seasons using adjusted scoring. Now let's compare that to someone more recent. Let's take a look at Alex Ovechkin. Using just Ovechkin's first five seasons, we have...

Actual: 52, 46, 65, 56, 50
Adjusted: 52, 48, 72, 59, 55

He finished 3, 4, 1, 1, 3 in goals.

Ovechkin obviously doesn't have a large enough sample size to do a full comparison against Richard. But the sample size we do have from his first five years suggests either he was playing at a level rarely ver seen, or Richard shouldn't be in this thread.



Yeah, players were hesitant to shoot on Hasek. Just look at his low shot count.



By that logic, your all-time greatest goalies list should be made entirely of goalies who have played in the last few years. I mean, Tim Thomas was posting sv% numbers 40-50 points higher than what a prime Grant Fuhr did. Thinking again... the league average was higher than prime Grant Fuhr! Man, dude must have sucked hardcore.



Donald Bradman.



Yzerman, Hull, Beliveau, and Jagr are the next four forwards after Gretzky, Howe, and Lemieux.



It's that they played for Montreal.



You forgot to list Trottier...



He's not even top-five among defensemen.



There were more major pro teams when Pocket Rocket played, a worse feeder structure, and worse development and training in general.



Richard over Chelios by a fair bit.
Beliveau over Selanne easily.
Hull over Jagr by a bit.
Lidstrom over Harvey, by a small margin.



I'd love to hear the case for Shore being better than any "mortal" forward, any goaltender, and any other defenseman but Orr.



Yzerman fits perfectly fine; he had the highest offensive peak of any player not named Gretzky or Lemieux and he also was a quite capable defensive player. In the "no Gretzky/Lemieux" universe, it's entirely possible Yzerman wins the 1988, 1989, and potentially even the 1993 Harts.



Elmer Lach's best comparable, to me, is Sid Abel. Which is convenient for Richard/Howe comparisons. One thing you left out, though, was the presence of Toe Blake through the 47-48 season. In 48-49 Blake was gone, and Lach missed half the season. Richard still failed to lead the team in scoring, losing to Billy Reay.
Could you give your top 10 or top 20 please.

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 10:55 AM
  #195
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I have Hasek 7th, but I see no problem if someone wants to rank him 5th.

My top ten includes the big four, Yzerman, Bobby Hull, Hasek, Beliveau, Jagr, and Lidstrom. After that my top 15 is rounded out by Doug Harvey, Ray Bourque, Jacques Plante, Maurice Richard, and Patrick Roy. I figure pretty much anyone from that group, as well as quite a few others not even on the list could *realistically* fit into that 5 slot. Some better than others, of course.
In this order? I'm not sure about Yzerman. He was never the Hart winner, although it's not his fault he played in the time of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 11:04 AM
  #196
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
They still had two 100+ pt centermen for Kurri and Anderson to play with so I'm not sure why you think that.
Messier actually only scored in the 90s in 88-89 with Simpson and Anderson, and the Moose scored less than half of his points at ES. He was third on the team in points behind Kurri and Carson. After Carson walked out on the team four games in the next year, Messier's ice time was drastically increased and he managed to hit 129 - again with huge PP production - and his ES production was right above guys like Hull/LaFontaine/Robitaille/Sakic/Oates and just below the triumvirate of Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman.

Quote:
And Anderson usually played with Messier (at least up until Gretzky departed) anyways.
Both Messier and Anderson benefited from Gretzky's presence on the first line. People argue against Bernie Nicholls because his best year came when he was Gretzky's second line center and played the wing with Gretzky on the PP. But with Messier, he gets "Oh, he'd have been better without Gretzky." Anderson generally gets treated as "he got to play with so many great players" and kicked out as if he's Wade Belak or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Could you give your top 10 or top 20 please.
See the post above yours.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 11:07 AM
  #197
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
In this order? I'm not sure about Yzerman. He was never the Hart winner, although it's not his fault he played in the time of Gretzky and Lemieux.
If you remove Gretzky and Lemieux from existence, I would argue Yzerman wins 1988 and 1989, is a finalist in 1990 and 1991, and possibly wins 1993 as well.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 01:41 PM
  #198
tony d
Thanks for memories
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,183
vCash: 500
Jean Beliveau followed closely by Doug Harvey, Stan Mikita and Ray Bourque.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 01:52 PM
  #199
gifted88
Dante the poet
 
gifted88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,307
vCash: 500
Jean Beliveau is the 5th best all-time imo.

gifted88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2013, 02:09 PM
  #200
86Habs
Registered User
 
86Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,194
vCash: 500
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Hull
7. Harvey
8. Bourque
9. Roy
10. Hasek

(M. Richard, Mikita, Lidstrom, Jagr)

86Habs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:20 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.