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The Luongo Thread - Aka "The Salesman"

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Old
02-26-2013, 10:45 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Nope. I just haven't given in to the HF Trade and Rumours board pressure and agreed that Luongo's value is lower than it actually is. And it seems to me like Gillis sees it my way as evidenced by no deal being completed yet and by media reports that his asking price is very high.

Very high price is all relative. The delay of the move says nothing either way. Maybe Tallon feels Petrovic + Matthias + 2nd is a high price. Then that gets reported to the media. Does that fulfill your version of this?

No one has fully agreed with your assessments. Even after months of board discussions. You are the outlier, just like one other TOR poster (who shall go unnamed) was for their side, and everyone knew it.

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02-26-2013, 10:49 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Very high price is all relative. The delay of the move says nothing either way. Maybe Tallon feels Petrovic + Matthias + 2nd is a high price. Then that gets reported to the media. Does that fulfill your version of this?

No one has fully agreed with your assessments. Even after months of board discussions. You are the outlier, just like one other TOR poster (who shall go unnamed) was for their side, and everyone knew it.
I disagree. There are plenty of people who agree with me.

Having said that, just because you and a few other people think that Petrovic, Matthias and a 2 is a good deal doesn't make that fact. You could all say that the earth is flat and I could be the "outlier" saying that the earth is round, but that doesn't make me wrong at all.

Alex Petrovic is a B prospect. He's a decent defensive prospect who probably doesn't have much opportunity to crack our lineup. Matthias is a 4th liner on this team, and the 2nd round pick doesn't hold much value especially when you consider that most 2nd round picks don't pan out. Essentially you're giving away Luongo for spare parts that don't address our needs at all.

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Old
02-26-2013, 11:10 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I disagree. There are plenty of people who agree with me.

Who? I don't recall anyone. And when I say agree, I mean fans of the other side, who know their team far better than you do (on average).



Quote:
Having said that, just because you and a few other people think that Petrovic, Matthias and a 2 is a good deal doesn't make that fact. You could all say that the earth is flat and I could be the "outlier" saying that the earth is round, but that doesn't make me wrong at all.

Alex Petrovic is a B prospect. He's a decent defensive prospect who probably doesn't have much opportunity to crack our lineup. Matthias is a 4th liner on this team, and the 2nd round pick doesn't hold much value especially when you consider that most 2nd round picks don't pan out. Essentially you're giving away Luongo for spare parts that don't address our needs at all.

You're acting like no one else has evaluated this, like you have. Outlier =/= One eyed man in the land of the blind. Like you are conveying here. The majority of posters bring reasoning to the same deals they propose, yet through the myriad of proposals, over many months of debate, you were labelled an extremist. Why do you think that is? Could your assessment possibly be off?

Maybe those pieces is all that he's worth? Is that possible? It seems you cannot allow yourself the possibility that this could be the case.

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02-26-2013, 11:43 PM
  #254
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There goes our connection from today bleach.

I agree with y2k here.

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02-26-2013, 11:49 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I don't think Shore is off the table. You have to give to get. Bjugstad I can see being a non-starter, but not Shore.





I in the Eye proposed Shore + 1st + Petrovic in the offseason. The 1st would be harder to pry out of FLA right now than Shore would be IMO. A C would have to come back, in some form. The first and Dman less so.
Shore is coming off a strong showing in the AHL, followed by a good start with the Panthers. You don't trade 6'3 rookie centremen that generate 3 shots a game IMO. At least not when your in the middle of a youth movement and the other player coming back will be a highly paid 34 year old.

Looks like the ship has sailed on Shore. As it probably has with Kadri.

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02-27-2013, 12:09 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
There goes our connection from today bleach.

I agree with y2k here.

No it hasn't. I qualified my statement by saying the agreement had to be from the fans of the other team.

Fans of the team naturally want a lot for Luongo. Most are less insistent than Y2K. In talks with the fans of this board, who do bring a perspective Canucks fans don't have, Y2K has been well recognized as an outlier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Shore is coming off a strong showing in the AHL, followed by a good start with the Panthers. You don't trade 6'3 rookie centremen that generate 3 shots a game IMO. At least not when your in the middle of a youth movement and the other player coming back will be a highly paid 34 year old.

Looks like the ship has sailed on Shore. As it probably has with Kadri.

You still have to give up something to get something. I feel you're not giving Luongo his due when saying he's just a highly paid 34 year old. The calibre of goalie has to matter here.

For you the ship has sailed on Shore. Not for others. If TOR's goaltending was struggling, Kadri again would be prevalent in the conversation. Reason, you have to give up something to get something.

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02-27-2013, 12:37 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Nope. I just haven't given in to the HF Trade and Rumours board pressure and agreed that Luongo's value is lower than it actually is. And it seems to me like Gillis sees it my way as evidenced by no deal being completed yet and by media reports that his asking price is very high.
What pressure? Some schmuck disagrees on HF? Bleach and I disagree on a regular basis. I guarantee, we're not pressured.

We are assessing a realistic value. I will be blunt, if Gillis believes Luongo will net him Huberdeau, he is a moron and in for a very rude awakening. Lu will net a decent return but the idea of a king's random is setting yourself up for disappointment. "Very high" is a relative term. According to Toronto rumors, Nonis felt Kadri + Bozak and a second was "very high." You openly trashed that proposal as junk - a few did.

Unless Kadri is the real deal, I do not see any star players in that offer and I cannot imagine Gillis believe he will get one.

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02-27-2013, 12:41 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
What pressure? Some schmuck disagrees on HF? Bleach and I disagree on a regular basis. I guarantee, we're not pressured.

We are assessing a realistic value. I will be blunt, if Gillis believes Luongo will net him Huberdeau, he is a moron and in for a very rude awakening. Lu will net a decent return but the idea of a king's random is setting yourself up for disappointment. "Very high" is a relative term. According to Toronto rumors, Nonis felt Kadri + Bozak and a second was "very high." You openly trashed that proposal as junk - a few did.

Unless Kadri is the real deal, I do not see any star players in that offer and I cannot imagine Gillis believe he will get one.
According to Hockey Widow that Kadri, Bozak and a 2nd was a rumour planted by Burke to the media to pressure Gillis into doing the trade.

If we are making a trade at the deadline, Weiss + Shore + 1st round pick is something I'd be interested in. If it's at the draft then I'd want Bjugstad and a 1st round pick.

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02-27-2013, 12:54 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
According to Hockey Widow that Kadri, Bozak and a 2nd was a rumour planted by Burke to the media to pressure Gillis into doing the trade.

If we are making a trade at the deadline, Weiss + Shore + 1st round pick is something I'd be interested in. If it's at the draft then I'd want Bjugstad and a 1st round pick.
So arguably Florida's best player and captain, one of their best prospects (fans say he's outplaying Hubs and Guds) and a first in a deep draft?

...

You are going to be very disappointed whenever Luongo is traded.

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02-27-2013, 01:03 AM
  #260
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If our slump continues I think we'll see a goalie moved sooner rather than later. Schneider to Tampa Bay, Washington, or NYI.

I've been disappointed in Schneider this season. He's had some good games, yes, but overall he doesn't seem like more than an above average starter. Luongo does have some gross games, but by and large his play is elite, and I definitely feel he's good enough to win the cup with.

Not sure what I'd target from those teams. Brouwer/Malone/Nielsen + high pick/prospect probably. Or maybe go the skill route and get one of Johansson/Okposo in a change of scenery trade.

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02-27-2013, 01:39 AM
  #261
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Best goalie we've ever had and is right up there for best player we've ever had, yes the asking price should be more than spare parts.

The fact most of you have bought into this low value Luongo stuff is hilarious, are you so caught up with having a "respectable" hf board persona that you're willing to throw away #1? Are you afraid to plant your feet and say THIS IS ROBERTO LUONGO?
Honestly, let that sink in; arguably best Canuck ever.
Give him some real respect.

If he gets traded I am a sad sad fan.

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02-27-2013, 02:12 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Godless Servant View Post
Best goalie we've ever had and is right up there for best player we've ever had, yes the asking price should be more than spare parts.

The fact most of you have bought into this low value Luongo stuff is hilarious, are you so caught up with having a "respectable" hf board persona that you're willing to throw away #1? Are you afraid to plant your feet and say THIS IS ROBERTO LUONGO?
Honestly, let that sink in; arguably best Canuck ever.
Give him some real respect.

If he gets traded I am a sad sad fan.


He's 34 years old with a 9 year contract. To a rich team, that contract is peanuts, but to a cash strapped team like the Panthers, it's a burden. Luongo is a victim of his own success. He doesn't get such a deal if he's not who he is. But that doesn't make the contract and player universally accepted by all parties. Some teams will favour him, and some won't.

When you see a middle ground opinion, it's there to temper expectations with input from the other side. Sure, you can keep beating the drum and expecting a king's ransom, but what is the logic behind you getting it? That Luongo is the best Canuck? You think the other team is going to care when he's as old as he is, with the contract that he has (depending on the team)? No, they won't.

Now factor in that Gillis has to deal him this offseason. No question. He has to move him as the cap will ensure it. If you're a potential suitor, aren't you using that as leverage? I would be. So now you have age + contract + leverage working against you.

It's got nothing to do with promoting a persona, and everything to do with realistic expectations. You think he's going to garner Huberdeau/Gudbranson/Bjugstad? Feel free to think that, but I'm betting you'll be disappointed.

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02-27-2013, 08:40 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
He's 34 years old with a 9 year contract. To a rich team, that contract is peanuts, but to a cash strapped team like the Panthers, it's a burden. Luongo is a victim of his own success. He doesn't get such a deal if he's not who he is. But that doesn't make the contract and player universally accepted by all parties. Some teams will favour him, and some won't.

When you see a middle ground opinion, it's there to temper expectations with input from the other side. Sure, you can keep beating the drum and expecting a king's ransom, but what is the logic behind you getting it? That Luongo is the best Canuck? You think the other team is going to care when he's as old as he is, with the contract that he has (depending on the team)? No, they won't.

Now factor in that Gillis has to deal him this offseason. No question. He has to move him as the cap will ensure it. If you're a potential suitor, aren't you using that as leverage? I would be. So now you have age + contract + leverage working against you.

It's got nothing to do with promoting a persona, and everything to do with realistic expectations. You think he's going to garner Huberdeau/Gudbranson/Bjugstad? Feel free to think that, but I'm betting you'll be disappointed.
I'm not saying you pay for the persona, when I say it's Roberto Luongo, I'm saying it's an elite, top 5 goalie and you're going to pay for it, many teams will go a decade or more with never having seen a goalie of his caliber in their net, yes his contract is long but guess what buttercup, you're going to pay for what he brings your team.
9 years left, people are assuming what? 5 years of Elite, 4 years of ???? It's still 5 years of better than what you got now by a long shot.

Seriously, I imagine Luongo on a team like Philly and it's scary.

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02-27-2013, 09:04 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Servant View Post
Best goalie we've ever had and is right up there for best player we've ever had, yes the asking price should be more than spare parts.

The fact most of you have bought into this low value Luongo stuff is hilarious, are you so caught up with having a "respectable" hf board persona that you're willing to throw away #1? Are you afraid to plant your feet and say THIS IS ROBERTO LUONGO?
Honestly, let that sink in; arguably best Canuck ever.
Give him some real respect.

If he gets traded I am a sad sad fan.
this is what was needed to be said.

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Old
02-27-2013, 09:10 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Servant View Post
I'm not saying you pay for the persona, when I say it's Roberto Luongo, I'm saying it's an elite, top 5 goalie and you're going to pay for it, many teams will go a decade or more with never having seen a goalie of his caliber in their net, yes his contract is long but guess what buttercup, you're going to pay for what he brings your team.
9 years left, people are assuming what? 5 years of Elite, 4 years of ???? It's still 5 years of better than what you got now by a long shot.

Seriously, I imagine Luongo on a team like Philly and it's scary.
This is what I've been saying for months/years even. You don't just give away Roberto Luongo for meh parts that don't address anything. I also imagine Tampa with Luongo possibly being a reincarnation of the 10-11 Canucks.

From Tampa I'd be happy with Connolly, Gudas and a 1st round pick. What Connolly has over Petrovic is that he is a skilled offensive forward with size, where Petrovic has size but is a defensive defenseman. Connolly addresses a need while Petrovic is blocked by our high priced NTC dmen. Essentially stuck playing the role that I'd be using Gudas in. And that 1st round pick is better than whatever Florida's 2nd would be.

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02-27-2013, 09:16 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
This is what I've been saying for months/years even. You don't just give away Roberto Luongo for meh parts that don't address anything. I also imagine Tampa with Luongo possibly being a reincarnation of the 10-11 Canucks.

From Tampa I'd be happy with Connolly, Gudas and a 1st round pick. What Connolly has over Petrovic is that he is a skilled offensive forward with size, where Petrovic has size but is a defensive defenseman. Connolly addresses a need while Petrovic is blocked by our high priced NTC dmen. Essentially stuck playing the role that I'd be using Gudas in. And that 1st round pick is better than whatever Florida's 2nd would be.
I think Shore, Petrovic and a 2nd = Connolly, Gudas and a 1st (I know it's a change from the original proposal). Shore looks to be a solid prospect with NHL impact.

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02-27-2013, 09:25 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by BerSTUzzi View Post
I think Shore, Petrovic and a 2nd = Connolly, Gudas and a 1st (I know it's a change from the original proposal). Shore looks to be a solid prospect with NHL impact.
I value high quality assets, and of the players we're discussing I think Connolly has the highest potential. I can see Connolly being a first line winger whereas Shore will likely be a second liner.

And the first round pick is also a key. Yes it's a deep draft but so was 2003 and in that year only 9 of the 30 picks have played 300 or more games, and of that only 5 are what you would consider impact players (Weber, Backes, Bergeron, Carle, and Eriksson). If I'm trading Roberto Luongo then a 1st is an absolute must.

Although to be honest right now I'd much rather move Schneider. He's looking more and more like last year was an aberration. Who'da thunk it? His abnormally high PK SVP wasn't sustainable, and now that he's not getting sheltered starts his overall numbers have regressed. Sounds familiar...

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02-27-2013, 09:35 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
He's 34 years old with a 9 year contract. To a rich team, that contract is peanuts, but to a cash strapped team like the Panthers, it's a burden. Luongo is a victim of his own success. He doesn't get such a deal if he's not who he is. But that doesn't make the contract and player universally accepted by all parties. Some teams will favour him, and some won't.

When you see a middle ground opinion, it's there to temper expectations with input from the other side. Sure, you can keep beating the drum and expecting a king's ransom, but what is the logic behind you getting it? That Luongo is the best Canuck? You think the other team is going to care when he's as old as he is, with the contract that he has (depending on the team)? No, they won't.

Now factor in that Gillis has to deal him this offseason. No question. He has to move him as the cap will ensure it. If you're a potential suitor, aren't you using that as leverage? I would be. So now you have age + contract + leverage working against you.

It's got nothing to do with promoting a persona, and everything to do with realistic expectations. You think he's going to garner Huberdeau/Gudbranson/Bjugstad? Feel free to think that, but I'm betting you'll be disappointed.
Why are these guys continually lumped together like they are similar.

If florida drafted you from 2010 onwards is it a sure sign you're headed towards superstardom.

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02-27-2013, 09:41 AM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I value high quality assets, and of the players we're discussing I think Connolly has the highest potential. I can see Connolly being a first line winger whereas Shore will likely be a second liner.

And the first round pick is also a key. Yes it's a deep draft but so was 2003 and in that year only 9 of the 30 picks have played 300 or more games, and of that only 5 are what you would consider impact players (Weber, Backes, Bergeron, Carle, and Eriksson). If I'm trading Roberto Luongo then a 1st is an absolute must.

Although to be honest right now I'd much rather move Schneider. He's looking more and more like last year was an aberration. Who'da thunk it? His abnormally high PK SVP wasn't sustainable, and now that he's not getting sheltered starts his overall numbers have regressed. Sounds familiar...
What would you accept for Schneider? More than Lu? Less?

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02-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I value high quality assets, and of the players we're discussing I think Connolly has the highest potential. I can see Connolly being a first line winger whereas Shore will likely be a second liner.

And the first round pick is also a key. Yes it's a deep draft but so was 2003 and in that year only 9 of the 30 picks have played 300 or more games, and of that only 5 are what you would consider impact players (Weber, Backes, Bergeron, Carle, and Eriksson). If I'm trading Roberto Luongo then a 1st is an absolute must.

Although to be honest right now I'd much rather move Schneider. He's looking more and more like last year was an aberration. Who'da thunk it? His abnormally high PK SVP wasn't sustainable, and now that he's not getting sheltered starts his overall numbers have regressed. Sounds familiar...

I understand the play for the future 1st line (post Sedins) thoughts with Connolly but Shore has apparently proved himself already in a 2/3 line role as a rookie. He has good size and skill and without the injury concerns of a Connolly.

I would not be upset with my trade nor with yours. They do address needs for this team going forward.

Schneider is allowing goals that he has stopped in the past. He has always struggled to adjust immediately to a new role at every level before dominating. I'm not saying he'll dominate as a full time starter but he has all the tools to be very good. As to quote a great man the goalie situation "is what it is".

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02-27-2013, 10:09 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
What would you accept for Schneider? More than Lu? Less?
Tough to say. With Schneider at least there are more possible teams involved because he doesn't have a NTC, although I think Philly makes a lot of sense. If we could acquire Sean Couturier for him I'd be ecstatic, or getting Johansen + out of Columbus.

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02-27-2013, 10:20 AM
  #272
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Tough to say. With Schneider at least there are more possible teams involved because he doesn't have a NTC, although I think Philly makes a lot of sense. If we could acquire Sean Couturier for him I'd be ecstatic, or getting Johansen + out of Columbus.
We waited way too long to trade one of them. Value is going down as our desperation increases and Schneider's play declines.

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02-27-2013, 11:38 AM
  #273
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If we're going the Schneider route, I would honestly look to acquire Gardiner+ and flip him for a forward or chase Perry. Right now Schneider's value is taking a hit and longer we wait the more likely neither goalie brings back a respectable price. Granted, I do believe we can hold until the draft - we probably will. I am just less certain about that choice of action nowadays. We are not seeing the goalie failures we had hoped for.

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02-27-2013, 11:48 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
If we're going the Schneider route, I would honestly look to acquire Gardiner+ and flip him for a forward or chase Perry. Right now Schneider's value is taking a hit and longer we wait the more likely neither goalie brings back a respectable price. Granted, I do believe we can hold until the draft - we probably will. I am just less certain about that choice of action nowadays. We are not seeing the goalie failures we had hoped for.
I think waiting this long was a bit of a blessing in disguise. Now if Luongo is willing to stay in Vancouver we will still have an elite goalie. I'm thinking Schneider was grossly overrated last year and a large part of that was his PK SVP. Now that this has regressed to the mean his stats have dropped (he hasn't been as good at even strength either). I don't like thinking about where this team would be had we dumped Luongo for spare parts like some have wanted to do, and had to rely on Schneider all year.

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02-27-2013, 01:20 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
5.3 million for 9 years. How many teams would give that to a 34 year old goalie ifhe were a ufa? My guess is nobody and a ufa would not cost any assets. So what is Luongo worth? ZERO!
YOu offered $4.5 for a 2 years to a 40 year old.

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