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Old
04-25-2013, 04:34 PM
  #626
The Big Unit
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Originally Posted by camboy View Post
Why would a team hire a coach with little NHL experience to lead a team made up of roster players with little NHL experience? Is that not a classic example of the blind leading the blind? Is there another thought process that I am missing here?
In management's defence here, the previous 2 coaches had plenty of NHL experience and netted worse results than Krueger. I don't believe it's a matter of experience as much as it is an issue of personality and leadership behind the bench.

Maybe Krueger's a good talker but his decisions behind the bench leave a lot to be desired. Maybe the players don't have the same faith in him now that they did last year and simply bailed on him and he's too much of a nice guy to assume control of the dressing room.

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04-25-2013, 05:30 PM
  #627
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Hilarious. People demand accountability when they suggest firing the coach, but how can the coach demand accountability when four coaches have been fired in five years?

and if you fire Krueger and replace him even with Ruff, how long before you fire Ruff? one season?

"oh, but its going to be different..." Why? Because its Lindy Ruff, a veteran coach from outside the Old boys club.

You mean like Tom Renney, who has never been an Oiler, who is also a veteran coach.

Firing Krueger because he's incompetent is a fair reason.

Firing Krueger because you think he can't hold the players accountable... doesn't make any sense because the same thing would occur for his replacement.

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04-25-2013, 05:37 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Hilarious. People demand accountability when they suggest firing the coach, but how can the coach demand accountability when four coaches have been fired in five years?

and if you fire Krueger and replace him even with Ruff, how long before you fire Ruff? one season?

"oh, but its going to be different..." Why? Because its Lindy Ruff, a veteran coach from outside the Old boys club.

You mean like Tom Renney, who has never been an Oiler, who is also a veteran coach.

Firing Krueger because he's incompetent is a fair reason.

Firing Krueger because you think he can't hold the players accountable... doesn't make any sense because the same thing would occur for his replacement.
Yep

5 years of hearing the same things over and over again no matter who's coaching - "the players didn't play the system", "the coach lost the room", "the players need someone that can motivate them".

Not a fan of Kreuger's man to man system, or his bench management, but he's not the problem here, not even close.

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04-25-2013, 05:51 PM
  #629
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The same roster? With a different(and much worse) goaltender and a record man-games lost to injuries? You've bought the organizational party line on why Quinn was fired - hook, line, and sinker.

I'll put it another way.

Horcoff - been packing it in for the season by january every year since before he got his contract, friends with the owner = rewarded with captaincy.
Hemsky - barely broke a sweat last year, 80 point talent, barely 35 points - rewarded with 2 year 5 million dollar a year contract(Other GMs were literally laughing at the team)
Belanger - worst showing in a full year by a player in an Oilers uniform since O'sullivan - was brought back
Smyth - phoned it in for 4 months of last year - rewarded with a 2 year 2.5 million dollar a year contract.

What chance does a coach have in an organization where he isn't even allowed to choose his own staff(none of Quinn/Renny/Kreuger had that option), against a group of players immune to accountability(4 coaches in 5 years for some of them), with a franchise more concerned with protecting the employment status of Oilers alumni(Lowe, Mact, Bucky, Smith, Horcoff, Smyth) than competency?

None, zip, ziltch.

Pedigree, Stanley cups, reputations won't matter one iota, big name coaches will get run over here just like anyone else. Need proof? Kreuger got a stay of execution by the new GM, and in one week the players have managed to pretty much play him right out of a job with the worst stretches of hockey seen since Quinn was head coach - that's how good this group of players is at killing coaches now.
Okay so there's a lot of stuff in your post.

1. I've already addressed this point in another post. Players get injured, good coaches can find a way to keep the team's head above water in bad luck scenarios, or at least trap the hell out of the opposition so your team isn't a complete pushover.

2. I was calling for Horcoff to be bought out at the same time Gomez and Redden were bought out. That's how much faith I have in him. The GM who gave these players those contracts (outside of Horcoff) has been fired and rightly so.

Of the players you mentioned by name, only Horcoff and Hemsky have been here the whole time since MacT was coach and outside of the kids they're still our best forwards. Horcoff is untradeable due to his terrible contract and Hemsky mailed it in. He got a $900 000 raise from his previous contract but the Oilers have been unwilling to trade him because we need vets on this team. As bad as he's been he's not a complete train wreck like the rest of the vets are.

Belanger is as good as gone and only came in during Renney's tenure, not sure why he's a coach killer in your opinion when we simply don't have depth at C (so basically we didn't have much choice). Smyth is in the twilight of his career. People age and time passed him by like time passed Pat Quinn by. Again blame management for signing him but ask yourself why is he getting so much ice time? Was that mandated by Kevin Lowe or Tambellini/MacT? No, Smyth's ice time is the head coach's decision.

What about the rest of the team? What about the other guys who have underperformed? Whitney, Potter, Peckham, Eager, Ryan Jones, MPS, Eberle, N Schultz, Dubnyk (imo too many bad goals = underperforming) and many others. Who deserves the blame for their collective underachievement? Management took it in the ass there already, again rightly so, but the coach isn't without blame here too. The Oilers constantly looked unprepared to play against their opposition and their 5 on 5 play has plummeted since Krueger took over. That part is on the coach.

Despite all of these troubles, the team really began to spin out of control after this coach got them to 8th in the West or did you forget that? This doesn't sound like the type of situation where a coach is being set up as a fall guy. It seems like the team got too high on themselves, patted themselves on the back too much after destroying Calgary 8-2 and then reality hit them in the face. Tambellini got fired for this tailspin, but who did Ralph call out in the media? Who did Ralph bench to send a message? It doesn't matter if we're first or last, they need to start showing the players that losing is unacceptable. Ralph isn't doing that right now.

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04-25-2013, 05:51 PM
  #630
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The way things are going, MacT will fire Krueger after the season and replace him with the best candidate available, which is himself. The kevin lowe show strikes again.

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04-25-2013, 05:53 PM
  #631
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Glen Sather was fired?

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04-25-2013, 05:56 PM
  #632
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[It doesn't matter if we're first or last, they need to start showing the players that losing is unacceptable. Ralph isn't doing that right now.
I've been defending the coach all year and I agree with this. I can't believe there hasn't been a bit of a response to this losing streak.

I don't think coaching is really part of the problem, but the current coach has obviously been tuned out and that is a problem heading into next year.

This franchise is a mess

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04-25-2013, 06:07 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Hilarious. People demand accountability when they suggest firing the coach, but how can the coach demand accountability when four coaches have been fired in five years?

and if you fire Krueger and replace him even with Ruff, how long before you fire Ruff? one season?

"oh, but its going to be different..." Why? Because its Lindy Ruff, a veteran coach from outside the Old boys club.

You mean like Tom Renney, who has never been an Oiler, who is also a veteran coach.

Firing Krueger because he's incompetent is a fair reason.

Firing Krueger because you think he can't hold the players accountable... doesn't make any sense because the same thing would occur for his replacement.
Well they did just fire the guy that has been hiring all these coaches that have been deemed the wrong choice. Maybe ST had no idea how to hire coaches?

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04-25-2013, 06:11 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Okay so there's a lot of stuff in your post.

1. I've already addressed this point in another post. Players get injured, good coaches can find a way to keep the team's head above water in bad luck scenarios, or at least trap the hell out of the opposition so your team isn't a complete pushover.

2. I was calling for Horcoff to be bought out at the same time Gomez and Redden were bought out. That's how much faith I have in him. The GM who gave these players those contracts (outside of Horcoff) has been fired and rightly so.

Of the players you mentioned by name, only Horcoff and Hemsky have been here the whole time since MacT was coach and outside of the kids they're still our best forwards. Horcoff is untradeable due to his terrible contract and Hemsky mailed it in. He got a $900 000 raise from his previous contract but the Oilers have been unwilling to trade him because we need vets on this team. As bad as he's been he's not a complete train wreck like the rest of the vets are.

Belanger is as good as gone and only came in during Renney's tenure, not sure why he's a coach killer in your opinion when we simply don't have depth at C (so basically we didn't have much choice). Smyth is in the twilight of his career. People age and time passed him by like time passed Pat Quinn by. Again blame management for signing him but ask yourself why is he getting so much ice time? Was that mandated by Kevin Lowe or Tambellini/MacT? No, Smyth's ice time is the head coach's decision.

What about the rest of the team? What about the other guys who have underperformed? Whitney, Potter, Peckham, Eager, Ryan Jones, MPS, Eberle, N Schultz, Dubnyk (imo too many bad goals = underperforming) and many others. Who deserves the blame for their collective underachievement? Management took it in the ass there already, again rightly so, but the coach isn't without blame here too. The Oilers constantly looked unprepared to play against their opposition and their 5 on 5 play has plummeted since Krueger took over. That part is on the coach.

Despite all of these troubles, the team really began to spin out of control after this coach got them to 8th in the West or did you forget that? This doesn't sound like the type of situation where a coach is being set up as a fall guy. It seems like the team got too high on themselves, patted themselves on the back too much after destroying Calgary 8-2 and then reality hit them in the face. Tambellini got fired for this tailspin, but who did Ralph call out in the media? Who did Ralph bench to send a message? It doesn't matter if we're first or last, they need to start showing the players that losing is unacceptable. Ralph isn't doing that right now.
You're arguing that the coach deserves to be fired.

I'm arguing that any coach brought in has no chance against players immune from accountability. The examples of the players is not whether they were good or not, it's that they are still around half-assing it, and even getting rewarded for it. While multiple coaches have already been thrown under the bus for not motivating/benching them at various points over the last 5 years, along with an almost yearly "the coach has lost the room" theme.

Ruff/Babcock/Tippitt(if hired) won't be allowed to hire their own staff, won't get a roster they can succeed with, and will be run out of town in a year's time because the players know they can tune them out and suffer zero consequences for it. Things like immovable contracts, inability to acquire vets, franchise savior anointed players on entry level deals, and incompetent management add to the power the players have over coaches brought into this toxic situation.


Last edited by Tarus: 04-25-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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04-25-2013, 06:19 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
What concerns me is that we've had 4 coaches in the last 5 seasons and the players know it.

All of the people firing coaches at every turn seem to have no awareness that this removes ANY responsibility and accountability from the players that know somebody else is walking the plank anyway.

People complain about coaches here not being able to hold this motley crew accountable without considering for a moment how much credibility we've stripped from the coaching position here.

As in "meet your new boss, we're not sure how long he'll be around but try to play nice..."

Coaches are afforded zero latitude here. Players know it.
I agree with the sentiment, however, 4 coaches in 5 seasons, as sad as it is, doesn't make the current coach the right one. This team, this season, has never looked well coached.

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04-25-2013, 06:21 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Hilarious. People demand accountability when they suggest firing the coach, but how can the coach demand accountability when four coaches have been fired in five years?

and if you fire Krueger and replace him even with Ruff, how long before you fire Ruff? one season?

"oh, but its going to be different..." Why? Because its Lindy Ruff, a veteran coach from outside the Old boys club.

You mean like Tom Renney, who has never been an Oiler, who is also a veteran coach.

Firing Krueger because he's incompetent is a fair reason.

Firing Krueger because you think he can't hold the players accountable... doesn't make any sense because the same thing would occur for his replacement.
Go ahead and stack up Tom Renney's accomplishments beside Lindy Ruff's and you'll see two VERY different resumes. Ruff makes Renney look like an amateur. It matters who's calling the shots behind the bench. I think what some posters here are missing is that the coaches we've been hiring since MacT weren't the right guy to hire in this situation. Ask yourself, why is it some coaches are successful on multiple teams? Maybe it's because they're damn good coaches and some guys just aren't at the same level. Go ahead and compare Renney's resume or Krueger's resume to these guys and then tell me the coach doesn't matter.

Ken Hitchcock (successful on every team he's coached, Stanley Cup win, finals loss, even managed to get Columbus into the playoffs)
Peter Laviolette (Stanley Cup win, finals loss)
John Tortorella (Stanley Cup win, finally brought the Rangers back to respectability last season)
Dave Tippett (coach of the year, took Phoenix to the WCF for the first time in franchise history, took Dallas to WCF, his teams have gotten over 100 points 4 times and 3 other times in the high 90s)
Mike Babcock (Stanley Cup win, 2 Finals losses, and a jack adams finalist, gold medal)
Alain Vigneault (2 Presidents Trophies, Jack Adams Award winner and finalist, Finals loss)
Joel Quennville (5 100 pt seasons and it'd be 6 if this were a full season, Stanley cup winner and 3 WCF losses)

But yeah the Oilers would fire one of these guys after one season.


Last edited by The Big Unit: 04-25-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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04-25-2013, 06:25 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
You're arguing that the coach deserves to be fired.

I'm arguing that any coach brought in has no chance against players immune from accountability. The examples of the players is not whether they were good or not, it's that they are still around half-assing it, and even getting rewarded for it. While multiple coaches have already been thrown under the bus for not motivating/benching them at various points over the last 5 years, along with an almost yearly "the coach has lost the room" theme.

Ruff/Babcock/Tippitt(if hired) won't be allowed to hire their own staff, won't get a roster they can succeed with, and will be run out of town in a year's time because the players know they can tune them out and suffer zero consequences for it. Things like immovable contracts, inability to acquire vets, franchise savior anointed players on entry level deals, and incompetent management add to the power the players have over coaches brought into this toxic situation.
You don't hire a coach with that pedigree UNLESS they have full control of the bench and who their assistants are. They wouldn't accept the job otherwise. Don't misinterpret me advocating the team to fire Krueger as some strange endorsement for keeping Smith and Buchberger around. They need to go too.

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04-25-2013, 06:26 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
You're arguing that the coach deserves to be fired.

I'm arguing that any coach brought in has no chance against players immune from accountability. The examples of the players is not whether they were good or not, it's that they are still around half-assing it, and even getting rewarded for it. While multiple coaches have already been thrown under the bus for not motivating/benching them at various points over the last 5 years, along with an almost yearly "the coach has lost the room" theme.

Ruff/Babcock/Tippitt(if hired) won't be allowed to hire their own staff, won't get a roster they can succeed with, and will be run out of town in a year's time because the players know they can tune them out and suffer zero consequences for it. Things like immovable contracts, inability to acquire vets, franchise savior anointed players on entry level deals, and incompetent management add to the power the players have over coaches brought into this toxic situation.
Agreed. All these things need to be changed immediately.
I think an established coach needs to be brought in and given the freedom to do his job, including hiring his own staff and dealing with accountability among players. If those changes aren't made, it really doesn't matter either way.

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04-25-2013, 06:34 PM
  #639
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You don't hire a coach with that pedigree UNLESS they have full control of the bench and who their assistants are. They wouldn't accept the job otherwise. Don't misinterpret me advocating the team to fire Krueger as some strange endorsement for keeping Smith and Buchberger around. They need to go too.
You're nibbling around the argument you said you disagreed with, without actually addressing it.

But if that is your criteria for any of the coaches you want hired, then there is an easy out for the both of us from this discussion - Congratulations Kelly Buchburger on your new head coaching position.

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04-25-2013, 06:34 PM
  #640
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Krueger is always going to have a cloud over him.

MacT should be given the chance to bring in his own coach, who in turn is allowed to bring in his own assistant coaches.

Until then, it looks like we just have a patch job of hires from various past GMs. It's ridiculous.

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04-25-2013, 06:39 PM
  #641
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Agreed. All these things need to be changed immediately.
I think an established coach needs to be brought in and given the freedom to do his job, including hiring his own staff and dealing with accountability among players. If those changes aren't made, it really doesn't matter either way.
Yep, it does need to change, and fast. Before it completely undermines and sinks the rebuild.

But what are the chances of any of it changing when the organization just fired Kevin Lowe's team Canada buddy(who he hired with no interviews), only to hire his even closer, playing days, glory years buddy(with no interviews)?

It's unlikely in the extreme unfortunately.

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04-25-2013, 06:53 PM
  #642
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You're nibbling around the argument you said you disagreed with, without actually addressing it.

But if that is your criteria for any of the coaches you want hired, then there is an easy out for the both of us from this discussion - Congratulations Kelly Buchburger on your new head coaching position.
I think I've been pretty straight forward but let's try this again. Your point is that no matter who the coach is, Buchberger and Smith stay. I disagree. I think we need a coach with pedigree and there's no way a coach with pedigree takes over this team unless he gets to call the shots behind the bench which likely means Bucky and Smith are gone. Lowe and Co would have agreed to this caveat prior to hiring said coach with pedigree. In other words, Lowe and Co need to recognize that they have to clean out the coaching staff and 8 or 9 players if the Oilers are going to be successful.

In an ideal world, Lowe would be fired and the Oilers brass get a much needed makeover, but clearly it seems like Lowe would let Bucky, Smith and Krueger take the fall before it comes to that. With that being the apparent reality, just hire the right guy and let him pick his staff. I know you believe that means Buchberger is next in line. Again, I disagree.

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04-25-2013, 06:57 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Hilarious. People demand accountability when they suggest firing the coach, but how can the coach demand accountability when four coaches have been fired in five years?

and if you fire Krueger and replace him even with Ruff, how long before you fire Ruff? one season?

"oh, but its going to be different..." Why? Because its Lindy Ruff, a veteran coach from outside the Old boys club.

You mean like Tom Renney, who has never been an Oiler, who is also a veteran coach.

Firing Krueger because he's incompetent is a fair reason.

Firing Krueger because you think he can't hold the players accountable... doesn't make any sense because the same thing would occur for his replacement.
This!

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04-25-2013, 06:58 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Hilarious. People demand accountability when they suggest firing the coach, but how can the coach demand accountability when four coaches have been fired in five years?

and if you fire Krueger and replace him even with Ruff, how long before you fire Ruff? one season?

"oh, but its going to be different..." Why? Because its Lindy Ruff, a veteran coach from outside the Old boys club.

You mean like Tom Renney, who has never been an Oiler, who is also a veteran coach.

Firing Krueger because he's incompetent is a fair reason.

Firing Krueger because you think he can't hold the players accountable... doesn't make any sense because the same thing would occur for his replacement.
Yep. You nailed my sentiments too.

Although, I think Ralph could do a better job, but players gotta be accountable.

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04-25-2013, 07:00 PM
  #645
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MacT pretty much gave Krueger a free pass for next season at the press conference regarding Tambo's firing. I also think we are losing on purpose right now to give that first rounder even more value. For crying out loud, Ryan Smyth was our extra attacker the other night. Obvious tanking, right?

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04-25-2013, 07:17 PM
  #646
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Yep

5 years of hearing the same things over and over again no matter who's coaching - "the players didn't play the system", "the coach lost the room", "the players need someone that can motivate them".

Not a fan of Kreuger's man to man system, or his bench management, but he's not the problem here, not even close.
Really? Not even close. I see Ralph as a low risk high reward move that didn't workout. Sorta like a Euro signing that has huge potential, but instead of getting Brunner we ended up getting Brunnstrom. Time to call a spade a spade in my books. He's clueless.

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04-25-2013, 07:20 PM
  #647
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Yep. You nailed my sentiments too.

Although, I think Ralph could do a better job, but players gotta be accountable.
What about changing both the cach and most of the vets as well as others?. There isn't a position on any level that is good at the moment.

Monumental change is what has to happen and to me that means coaching as well as personnel.

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04-25-2013, 07:21 PM
  #648
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I think I've been pretty straight forward but let's try this again. Your point is that no matter who the coach is, Buchberger and Smith stay. I disagree. I think we need a coach with pedigree and there's no way a coach with pedigree takes over this team unless he gets to call the shots behind the bench which likely means Bucky and Smith are gone. Lowe and Co would have agreed to this caveat prior to hiring said coach with pedigree. In other words, Lowe and Co need to recognize that they have to clean out the coaching staff and 8 or 9 players if the Oilers are going to be successful.

In an ideal world, Lowe would be fired and the Oilers brass get a much needed makeover, but clearly it seems like Lowe would let Bucky, Smith and Krueger take the fall before it comes to that. With that being the apparent reality, just hire the right guy and let him pick his staff. I know you believe that means Buchberger is next in line. Again, I disagree.
You disagreed with my point(originally), and I quote myself - "Any coach who tries to take a hard stance with the players will get fired for their efforts. - to which I expanded on by saying the players are in control of the situation because upper management(Lowe et al) are more concerned with protecting their friends,(Buch/Smith) and avoiding having to hold certain players accountable(along with a listing of some examples).

Your responses have tracked so far as -

- It's not the player's fault, it's Kreuger's fault, he should be fired(which has nothing to do with the argument you were disagreeing with)

followed by

- They can't keep Buchberger and Smith because the coaches I want won't sign here under those terms.(Which dismisses and ignores the argument you were disagreeing with)

Not trying to be rude, just trying to clarify things a bit.

I don't think Buchburger is next in line either. I think the Oilers will throw enough money at Ruff that he'll come here and just put up with Buchberger/Smith because the organization will demand it. I also think he'll be run out the door in a season or two because management has stripped the power from the coaching position by letting the players run amok with zero accountability for far too long.

But if you want to stress that it's an absolute impossibility that any of those coaches will come to Edmonton and suffer management's incestuous hiring practices. Then yes, Kelly Buchburger will be head coach of the Edmonton Oilers next year.

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04-25-2013, 07:28 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
I think I've been pretty straight forward but let's try this again. Your point is that no matter who the coach is, Buchberger and Smith stay. I disagree. I think we need a coach with pedigree and there's no way a coach with pedigree takes over this team unless he gets to call the shots behind the bench which likely means Bucky and Smith are gone. Lowe and Co would have agreed to this caveat prior to hiring said coach with pedigree. In other words, Lowe and Co need to recognize that they have to clean out the coaching staff and 8 or 9 players if the Oilers are going to be successful.

In an ideal world, Lowe would be fired and the Oilers brass get a much needed makeover, but clearly it seems like Lowe would let Bucky, Smith and Krueger take the fall before it comes to that. With that being the apparent reality, just hire the right guy and let him pick his staff. I know you believe that means Buchberger is next in line. Again, I disagree.
it almost seems like Lowe has become some sort of super Villain.

"the Oilers, their mine!! their all mine!!!! Moo ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa!!!"

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04-25-2013, 07:29 PM
  #650
GreatKeith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
Really? Not even close. I see Ralph as a low risk high reward move that didn't workout. Sorta like a Euro signing that has huge potential, but instead of getting Brunner we ended up getting Brunnstrom. Time to call a spade a spade in my books. He's clueless.
That's... not really even a fair comparison. Brunnstrom had a decent first year, as has Brunner.

What if he falls off the map next year?

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