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Old
04-25-2013, 06:46 PM
  #651
Seedling
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Originally Posted by GreatKeith View Post
That's... not really even a fair comparison. Brunnstrom had a decent first year, as has Brunner.

What if he falls off the map next year?
Okay, poor choice for first year guys. Replace Brunnstrom with Petrell.

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04-25-2013, 08:40 PM
  #652
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I would have liked to see them pull up a few of the farm players for a stint. Let a few of the lay down larry's entertain the press box. We are getting waxed with the current roster as is.

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04-25-2013, 10:10 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by thinlizzy View Post
I would have liked to see them pull up a few of the farm players for a stint. Let a few of the lay down larry's entertain the press box. We are getting waxed with the current roster as is.
It certainly wouldn't hurt at this point.

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04-25-2013, 11:47 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
It certainly wouldn't hurt at this point.
Why take players from a team that fought for a playoff spot and make them suffer for 2 or 3 games on a dead weight team that has nothing to play for. Let the guys on the farm enjoy their work by preparing for the playoffs as a team.

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04-25-2013, 11:57 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by cheezsannich View Post
Why take players from a team that fought for a playoff spot and make them suffer for 2 or 3 games on a dead weight team that has nothing to play for. Let the guys on the farm enjoy their work by preparing for the playoffs as a team.
There is this as well. I can't really disagree as the coach and team are not able to show them what the real NHL is anymore.

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04-26-2013, 09:06 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Chooch View Post
MacT pretty much gave Krueger a free pass for next season at the press conference regarding Tambo's firing. I also think we are losing on purpose right now to give that first rounder even more value. For crying out loud, Ryan Smyth was our extra attacker the other night. Obvious tanking, right?
Katz once gave MacT a free pass

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04-26-2013, 10:09 AM
  #657
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Just kinda browsing through the thread, and there is one thing that many have brought up which is really starting to bug me.

Coaching staff. Head coach. Head coach has not, through Quinn, Renney, and Kreuger, been afforded the option (seemingly), to pick their own assistants.

I'd imagine that this fact alone would make it almost impossible to properly coach a team of NHLer's.

Why haven't any of the last 3 coaches been able to choose their own staff?

There is something VERY wrong here, and I'm not sure if it was Tambo or Lowe. I hope MacT fixes this situation in the off season.

Coaches need proper chemistry to create the synergy needed to properly run an NHL team too...especially a young team like this.

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04-26-2013, 10:25 AM
  #658
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Krueger has this team neutered with his play to not lose attitude. We need a winner.

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Old
04-26-2013, 11:59 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
it almost seems like Lowe has become some sort of super Villain.

"the Oilers, their mine!! their all mine!!!! Moo ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa!!!"
Well he does have 6 cups and clearly sees that there are two tiers of fans. Lowe did this to himself.

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Old
04-26-2013, 12:41 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
I think I've been pretty straight forward but let's try this again. Your point is that no matter who the coach is, Buchberger and Smith stay. I disagree. I think we need a coach with pedigree and there's no way a coach with pedigree takes over this team unless he gets to call the shots behind the bench which likely means Bucky and Smith are gone. Lowe and Co would have agreed to this caveat prior to hiring said coach with pedigree. In other words, Lowe and Co need to recognize that they have to clean out the coaching staff and 8 or 9 players if the Oilers are going to be successful.

In an ideal world, Lowe would be fired and the Oilers brass get a much needed makeover, but clearly it seems like Lowe would let Bucky, Smith and Krueger take the fall before it comes to that. With that being the apparent reality, just hire the right guy and let him pick his staff. I know you believe that means Buchberger is next in line. Again, I disagree.
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
You disagreed with my point(originally), and I quote myself - "Any coach who tries to take a hard stance with the players will get fired for their efforts. - to which I expanded on by saying the players are in control of the situation because upper management(Lowe et al) are more concerned with protecting their friends,(Buch/Smith) and avoiding having to hold certain players accountable(along with a listing of some examples).

Your responses have tracked so far as -

- It's not the player's fault, it's Kreuger's fault, he should be fired(which has nothing to do with the argument you were disagreeing with)

followed by

- They can't keep Buchberger and Smith because the coaches I want won't sign here under those terms.(Which dismisses and ignores the argument you were disagreeing with)

Not trying to be rude, just trying to clarify things a bit.

I don't think Buchburger is next in line either. I think the Oilers will throw enough money at Ruff that he'll come here and just put up with Buchberger/Smith because the organization will demand it. I also think he'll be run out the door in a season or two because management has stripped the power from the coaching position by letting the players run amok with zero accountability for far too long.

But if you want to stress that it's an absolute impossibility that any of those coaches will come to Edmonton and suffer management's incestuous hiring practices. Then yes, Kelly Buchburger will be head coach of the Edmonton Oilers next year.
Dude go back and read my messages again. You're just trying to over simplify my argument so yours look better. I have addressed your points every step of the way and the way you're portraying what I've written is just plain wrong.

Coaches with pedigree have options and many teams will go after them. It's not like Lindy Ruff or others of his calibre are chasing after their big break in the NHL. They're going to get money thrown at them anywhere they go so they pick situations where they believe they can succeed. With this core the Oilers are going to have a long window to win but it's not exactly a closely guarded secret that multiple coaches have had the same assistants in Edmonton. An elite coach isn't likely to put up with a gong show that forces him to keep Buchberger and Smith so he will avoid the situation altogether and sign elsewhere.

Both of us are speculating. Yes Buchberger and Smith have survived multiple coaching changes and the old boys club is still hiring their buddies, I get that and see it clearly and management (Lowe in particular) deserve all the criticism that's coming their way. But that's not a guarantee that these assistants survive the next coaching change; especially at a time that our core is beginning to mature and it seems more and more likely that we need an elite coach.

This argument doesn't at all absolve the players. You mentioned some by name, I blamed management for them still being here. I also stated in the quoted message that 8 or 9 guys need to go so we agree that the players deserve their share of the blame. 8 or 9 players being moved out is a very big overhaul of the roster in one off-season. The GM has been fired, this is a message that the roster he put together isn't up to the challenge of making the playoffs. That's as much on the players as it is on the coach. I'm not exactly thrilled MacT is the GM either; I really hoped they'd spend the playoff months looking for a more experienced replacement. But imo he's an upgrade on Tambellini and likely will call out underperforming players.

As for the rest of the players that I mentioned, yeah I blamed coaching for a collectively underwhelming performance this season. I don't believe 20 guys can just plain suck all the time if their coach has them on the same page.

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Old
04-26-2013, 04:03 PM
  #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Dude go back and read my messages again. You're just trying to over simplify my argument so yours look better. I have addressed your points every step of the way and the way you're portraying what I've written is just plain wrong.

Coaches with pedigree have options and many teams will go after them. It's not like Lindy Ruff or others of his calibre are chasing after their big break in the NHL. They're going to get money thrown at them anywhere they go so they pick situations where they believe they can succeed. With this core the Oilers are going to have a long window to win but it's not exactly a closely guarded secret that multiple coaches have had the same assistants in Edmonton. An elite coach isn't likely to put up with a gong show that forces him to keep Buchberger and Smith so he will avoid the situation altogether and sign elsewhere.

Both of us are speculating. Yes Buchberger and Smith have survived multiple coaching changes and the old boys club is still hiring their buddies, I get that and see it clearly and management (Lowe in particular) deserve all the criticism that's coming their way. But that's not a guarantee that these assistants survive the next coaching change; especially at a time that our core is beginning to mature and it seems more and more likely that we need an elite coach.

This argument doesn't at all absolve the players. You mentioned some by name, I blamed management for them still being here. I also stated in the quoted message that 8 or 9 guys need to go so we agree that the players deserve their share of the blame. 8 or 9 players being moved out is a very big overhaul of the roster in one off-season. The GM has been fired, this is a message that the roster he put together isn't up to the challenge of making the playoffs. That's as much on the players as it is on the coach. I'm not exactly thrilled MacT is the GM either; I really hoped they'd spend the playoff months looking for a more experienced replacement. But imo he's an upgrade on Tambellini and likely will call out underperforming players.

As for the rest of the players that I mentioned, yeah I blamed coaching for a collectively underwhelming performance this season. I don't believe 20 guys can just plain suck all the time if their coach has them on the same page.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Any coach who tries to take a hard stance with the players will get fired for their efforts.

Management has stripped the power from the coaching position, the players are running the show now.
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
I disagree with the bolded. I think it depends on who the coach is. MacT lost the room but it was time for a change. The game simply passed by Pat Quinn so he wasn't right either. Both Renney and Krueger are "nice guys" and not really in the John Tortorella mould. I think an outspoken coach who calls the players out like Tortorella or Lindy Ruff would fit perfectly here.
What you disagreed with, and the point I've been expanding on for several posts now in various different ways. I'll lay out all the things I haven't been talking about after re-reading the discussion.

- I don't care about Kreuger's performance as a coach, I haven't argued whether he should be fired or not at any point during our discussion.
- I don't care about who should be hired.
- I never argued anyone was a fall guy
- I don't care about state of any player's careers, or the necessity of moving any of them out. It was brought up as a point to emphasize their collective immunity from any coach's attempt to hold them accountable on the ice(elite coach or not)
- I don't care about the potential of big name coaches acceding to the team's demands to keep Buchburger/Smith around if Oilers management tries to recruit any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Dude go back and read my messages again. You're just trying to over simplify my argument so yours look better. I have addressed your points every step of the way and the way you're portraying what I've written is just plain wrong.
Right back at you dude, especially considering your insistence on thinking my stance at anytime during this discussion was ever -

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Your point is that no matter who the coach is, Buchberger and Smith stay. I disagree.
I'll simplify best I can for you, my stance from start to finish in every post, with no side notes, examples, or distractions -

-The players on this team have become coach killers
-Management has fostered that behavior
-that problem will likely continue no matter who they hire due to historical precedent of how this team is run
-Coaches will continue to get fired(deserving or not), because the position itself has become powerless due to the actions of management.

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04-26-2013, 04:38 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
What you disagreed with, and the point I've been expanding on for several posts now in various different ways. I'll lay out all the things I haven't been talking about after re-reading the discussion.

- I don't care about Kreuger's performance as a coach, I haven't argued whether he should be fired or not at any point during our discussion.
- I don't care about who should be hired.
- I never argued anyone was a fall guy
- I don't care about state of any player's careers, or the necessity of moving any of them out. It was brought up as a point to emphasize their collective immunity from any coach's attempt to hold them accountable on the ice(elite coach or not)
- I don't care about the potential of big name coaches acceding to the team's demands to keep Buchburger/Smith around if Oilers management tries to recruit any of them.


Okay so management's incompetence caused the Oilers current pathetic state and because nothing has changed nothing will change This is speculation and I address it further below. However, congratulations for coming to the conclusion that Oilers management has sucked for years. I was under the impression you had more to bring to the table than this when I began to debate you

I'll simplify best I can for you, my stance from start to finish in every post, with no side notes, examples, or distractions -

-The players on this team have become coach killers
-Management has fostered that behavior - Management did a poor job. We agree on this point. Old GM has been fired. The new guy deserves a chance no matter how unhappy we are with the process that brought him here.
-that problem will likely continue no matter who they hire due to historical precedent of how this team is run - this is speculation. Historical precedent doesn't guarantee future action follows the same course nor is it a guarantee that things will change either.
-Coaches will continue to get fired(deserving or not), because the position itself has become powerless due to the actions of management. - Again this is speculation. Unsuccessful teams fire their coaches, that's the norm in the NHL. Successive unsuccessful seasons don't guarantee more unsuccessful seasons under new coaches. Furthermore, moving out players changes the culture in the dressing room. To state that you don't care about this point like you did above means there is no depth to your argument.
I've written my pieces in bold. Thanks for the debate.

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Old
04-26-2013, 05:32 PM
  #663
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The Edmonton sports media is in full-on apologist mode for Krueger and his coaching staff. "He doesn't have the players."

That's nice.

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04-26-2013, 05:37 PM
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Katz once gave MacT a free pass
After the game Krueger said the Smyth line was the most effective offensively during the game.
Maybe they were maybe they weren't..I don't think they were because they never scored, Yakupov's line did so that make them the most effective but whatever, nobody was good that game so even if Smyths line was the best they weren't good..I would've rather gone with my proven point getters of THIS season in the last two minutes of the game than Smyth, just don't see him as a top forward anymore at all.

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04-26-2013, 07:27 PM
  #665
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Bets on how long until there's a "Fire Ruff" thread if we do end up hiring him?

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04-26-2013, 07:51 PM
  #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
I've written my pieces in bold. Thanks for the debate.
Ok then

Quote:
Okay so management's incompetence caused the Oilers current pathetic state and because nothing has changed nothing will change This is speculation and I address it further below. However, congratulations for coming to the conclusion that Oilers management has sucked for years. I was under the impression you had more to bring to the table than this when I began to debate you
and

Quote:
Furthermore, moving out players changes the culture in the dressing room. To state that you don't care about this point like you did above means there is no depth to your argument.
Once again shows you are again isolating quotes completely out of context despite a clearly stated - I'll lay out all the things I haven't been talking about

Quote:
this is speculation. Historical precedent doesn't guarantee future action follows the same course nor is it a guarantee that things will change either.
Yes, it's speculation - based on patterns of organizational behavior that has been occurring for years, the very type of thing you base speculation on.

Quote:
Again this is speculation. Unsuccessful teams fire their coaches, that's the norm in the NHL. Successive unsuccessful seasons don't guarantee more unsuccessful seasons under new coaches.
and you finally come within spitting distance of what I've been talking about this entire time, which was as I've stated many times now - Future coaches(doesn't matter who they will be) hired in Edmonton, will struggle to obtain positive results within this organization due to the fact that management has undermined the position of head coach over the last 5 years.

I would provide more examples of why I've come to this conclusion in an effort to support my position, but it's clear from your increasingly rambling, condescending posts, that you wouldn't comprehend it as a specific argument.

So that's that.

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04-26-2013, 11:26 PM
  #667
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seems a very popular argument against firing Krugs is centred around: 'we've fired 3 coaches in 4 years'.

consider: Renney was fired by Tambo, and it has become aparrent that was a manager on the hot seat, and trying to show 'we will demand more'. in retrospect, Renney probably should not have been fired. his 29th place finish was a direct result of Tambo's failed acquisitions.

also, Kruger was a Tambo hiring. he interviewed Crawford and the guy from OKC, Kruger.... anyone else? and he went with the rookie he knew. Was this just another blunder in a long line of blunders?

So, now, Mact should not fire Kruger because... well, because Tambo fired Renney last year. is that really a good enough reason?

I think Mact has to forget what Tambo did and look at the situation and ask: is the guy i have better for this group (and the changes i am going to make) than the guy i can get? is Kruger better than Ruff? probably not.

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04-27-2013, 12:59 AM
  #668
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
seems a very popular argument against firing Krugs is centred around: 'we've fired 3 coaches in 4 years'.

consider: Renney was fired by Tambo, and it has become aparrent that was a manager on the hot seat, and trying to show 'we will demand more'. in retrospect, Renney probably should not have been fired. his 29th place finish was a direct result of Tambo's failed acquisitions.

also, Kruger was a Tambo hiring. he interviewed Crawford and the guy from OKC, Kruger.... anyone else? and he went with the rookie he knew. Was this just another blunder in a long line of blunders?

So, now, Mact should not fire Kruger because... well, because Tambo fired Renney last year. is that really a good enough reason?

I think Mact has to forget what Tambo did and look at the situation and ask: is the guy i have better for this group (and the changes i am going to make) than the guy i can get? is Kruger better than Ruff? probably not.
Is Ruff better for this group than Krueger? Who knows. Would Ruff accept a coaching position without the ability to pick his own assistants...doubt it.

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04-27-2013, 01:04 AM
  #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezsannich View Post
Is Ruff better for this group than Krueger? Who knows. Would Ruff accept a coaching position without the ability to pick his own assistants...doubt it.
true. I'm not really concerned about Ruff. my point is more about handcuffing Mact because Tambo mistakenly fired Renney. If Mact thinks he can hire someone else that can do a better job, he should do it.

it just seems like we are letting Tambo's mistakes yesterday affect decisions today.

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04-27-2013, 01:10 AM
  #670
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true. I'm not really concerned about Ruff. my point is more about handcuffing Mact because Tambo mistakenly fired Renney. If Mact thinks he can hire someone else that can do a better job, he should do it.
I used Ruff as an example. Will MacT actually tank the assistants that have been around since his tenure?

An example would be bringing in Huddy from Winnipeg. Would the Oilers keep the hapless pair of Smith and Buckie? It is pointless to keep changing the head coach if you keep the clueless pair that have done nothing to support a head coach since their "appointments".

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04-27-2013, 01:38 AM
  #671
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One would assume that if the problem causing the firing of multiple coaches is in fact the players, part of the solution would be getting rid of the players that have been around for all the firings. Horcoff Hemsky Smyth Jones need to be gone if the problem is not the coaching staff. MacT needs to fire the coach or get rid of those players or both. You can't give the coaching staff a vote of confidence and then not address the "real problem" you have fabricated to keep the coach around.

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04-27-2013, 01:53 AM
  #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
The Edmonton sports media is in full-on apologist mode for Krueger and his coaching staff. "He doesn't have the players."

That's nice.

MacT said it would be asinine to blame Krueger so its not just the media.


I think Ruff would come to Edmonton, and he would be an upgrade on Krueger, but coaching isn't the problem. We have a very raw line-up with under-performing vets paired with a below average D corps.

It's been a revolving door of coaches through the kids' years, a little stability might help.

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04-27-2013, 01:57 AM
  #673
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Originally Posted by Sheikyerbouti View Post
MacT said it would be asinine to blame Krueger so its not just the media.


I think Ruff would come to Edmonton, and he would be an upgrade on Krueger, but coaching isn't the problem. We have a very raw line-up with under-performing vets paired with a below average D corps.

It's been a revolving door of coaches through the kids' years, a little stability might help.
This type of sensible thinking is ridiculous. Seriously, you stated exactly what will continue to be the bane of this team if MacT doesn't bring in vets who know how to win/lead.

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04-27-2013, 04:46 AM
  #674
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Anyone seen the new Oil Change?
I had the TV on mute as I was listening to the postgame show on CHED630 but noticed Oil Change was on and Krueger was doing a speech in the locker room after period two against Columbus and he looked PISSED! Looked like he was really giving it to the guys, so I put the volume on and I soon discovered that the sound of his voice don't match the look on his face

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04-27-2013, 06:12 AM
  #675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezsannich View Post
I used Ruff as an example. Will MacT actually tank the assistants that have been around since his tenure?

An example would be bringing in Huddy from Winnipeg. Would the Oilers keep the hapless pair of Smith and Buckie? It is pointless to keep changing the head coach if you keep the clueless pair that have done nothing to support a head coach since their "appointments".
allowing the new coach to hire his own assistants should be an automatic. it certainly appears suspicious that longtime Oiler/Klowe faithful always seem to retain their assistant jobs. but, I don't think Smith is useless. he was a damn defenseman in his day. but, fosho, a coach needs to pick his guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheikyerbouti View Post
MacT said it would be asinine to blame Krueger so its not just the media.


I think Ruff would come to Edmonton, and he would be an upgrade on Krueger, but coaching isn't the problem. We have a very raw line-up with under-performing vets paired with a below average D corps.

It's been a revolving door of coaches through the kids' years, a little stability might help.
pretty much concur with this

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