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Still Not Winnin' for MacKinnon

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Old
02-24-2013, 10:00 AM
  #301
Jame
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
But my question is why do they need to take the long methodical approach to this? Whats the point of Pegulabucks and the supposed advantage they give if we're not going to use them? We have avenues to improve the team we've not had with previous owners. But I don't think Darcy is the one to make this happen.



I agree. I think he needs to go because a faster rebuild can take place with a different GM. There is no way in hell its happening under Regier.


Ironically if you're a proponent of the slow methodical rebuild where you max out your current assets to get picks and prospects. Then Darcy is actually a guy that has done that already and probably could again. What he can't do is adapt to his team's needs on the fly. Once that team (first two post lockout years) had success he couldn't/wouldn't add the missing pieces to close the deal on a Cup (obviously there are no guarantees) and chose to be patient instead. But he did rebuild from the bankruptcy years and had a very good stable of talent that Ruff molded into one of the best teams in the NHL.
So, if Pegula keeps Regier... then your preferrence would be for the "slow methodical" rebuild, right?

I mean, you think Regier is qualified to pursue that route (proven). And you DON'T think Regier is qualified to do the aggressive retool path that you prefer. But, your most important criteria is a return to success.

So if Regier is kept for the next year or so at minimum, you should be on born with the complete rebuild

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02-24-2013, 10:04 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
if all you are going to do is look at FAILED rebuilds like NYI... then why don't you do the same with your preferred route? Why not look at all the failed "PARTIAL Rebuilds"

"If you and Joshjull were right, Calgary and Dallas should have cups by now"
I'm not advocating for one way or the other, but I'd stop short of calling Calgary a rebuild in any form or fashion. I don't think they were trying to rebuild anything there, partial or full or otherwise. From 2004-2011, they traded their 2nd round pick in 6 of those 7 drafts. I think Calgary's post-lockout mistake was the belief that they were contenders, when they were nowhere close.

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02-24-2013, 10:06 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Regier has shown an overriding willingness to retain his UFA talent rather than maximize value all for the faintest sniff of a playoff run and has not IMHO done what is necessary to take a long-view roster build. He's not decisive enough at anything -- single move "fixes" for ingrained issues abound, as do examples of him trying to squeeze into 7 or 8 than get the most value for an asset. Gaustad is a serious exception to his body of work.
and campbell

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02-24-2013, 10:07 AM
  #304
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Just as an eye opener, last night after the game Drew Stafford showed up at the pink. Imo, he should be no where near beer with the effort he's shown this year. I seriously doubt his commitment to maximize his talent.

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02-24-2013, 10:07 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I'm not advocating for one way or the other, but I'd stop short of calling Calgary a rebuild in any form or fashion. I don't think they were trying to rebuild anything there, partial or full or otherwise. From 2004-2011, they traded their 2nd round pick in 6 of those 7 drafts. I think Calgary's post-lockout mistake was the belief that they were contenders, when they were nowhere close.
theres selling your core and rebuilding in full...
and theres continually trying to make changes around your core...

calgary falls into the later... joshjull's suggestions sound like the later (changes around van, pom, miller)

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02-24-2013, 10:15 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by enrothorne View Post
Just as an eye opener, last night after the game Drew Stafford showed up at the pink. Imo, he should be no where near beer with the effort he's shown this year. I seriously doubt his commitment to maximize his talent.
And to think I used to like the Pink...

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02-24-2013, 10:16 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I'm not advocating for one way or the other, but I'd stop short of calling Calgary a rebuild in any form or fashion. I don't think they were trying to rebuild anything there, partial or full or otherwise. From 2004-2011, they traded their 2nd round pick in 6 of those 7 drafts. I think Calgary's post-lockout mistake was the belief that they were contenders, when they were nowhere close.
Similar mistake to the Leafs in the Kessel trade. A mistake we should avoid. We are nowhere near contenders at this point and we should proceed (trades/draft) based on that premise IMO.

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02-24-2013, 10:24 AM
  #308
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Beyond Ugly: Gerbe just said that "we had a lot of good chances" on TV. I already wanted him gone, but that is an instant waive for me. If you think anything about this game was even okay, get the **** out of the NHL.
We didn't have a lot of chances? We had 35 shots......we had many chances and just didn't bury. We don't bury the puck into the net that's the problem....

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02-24-2013, 10:27 AM
  #309
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Any video of the brawl after the game?

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02-24-2013, 10:32 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by SabresBillsBuffalo View Post
Any video of the brawl after the game?
Not that I can find. Not as entertaining as it sounds, unless compared to the rest of the recent games.

Scruffle in front of the net, a mild run at Miller as retaliation for Foligno (IIRC) running Nabakov. Isles player puts Miller in headlock, Miller breaks free and grabs / jabs for a few seconds. Thats about it.

Nabakov skates down the ice and stands nose to nose with Miller but it lacks any ferocity (much like the team)

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02-24-2013, 10:34 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
theres selling your core and rebuilding in full...
and theres continually trying to make changes around your core...

calgary falls into the later... joshjull's suggestions sound like the later (changes around van, pom, miller)
I dunno, I think I'd put Calgary into a more specific category:

-Terrible Drafting/Failure to Develop Players

Between 2004-11, they've had one 1st round draft pick play more than 100 NHL games: Mikael Backlund. Nice 3C, but hardly an impact player. Kris Chucko, Matt Pelech, Leland Irving, Greg Nemisz, and Tim Erixon (some tough luck there) really set them back.

-Continually Trading 2nd round picks

Trying to be a contender when they weren't. Only picked in the 2nd round once between 2004-11.

-Terrible Trades

Trading away quarters for dimes and nickels. Phaneuf comes to mind. Didn't get a good return on Regehr.

-Terrible UFA signings

Bouwmeester not worth what they paid. Kotalik for $3m per year? That right there cost them a 2nd rounder.
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I don't think anyone is advocating for taking that avenue. While recognizing they're not going to "burn it down"--i.e., trade all or even most of Vanek/Poms/Miller/Stafford--they want to see an elite draft pick, acquiring (not trading away like Calgary) a host of draft picks to use in the draft or in smart trades, and some smart UFA signings.

Again, not advocating, but I don't think anyone wants the Calgary approach.

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02-24-2013, 10:37 AM
  #312
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Just as an eye opener, last night after the game Drew Stafford showed up at the pink. Imo, he should be no where near beer with the effort he's shown this year. I seriously doubt his commitment to maximize his talent.

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02-24-2013, 10:40 AM
  #313
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Easily.

Worst Sabres team of my lifetime.
Agreed. There's no motivation whatsoever. I remember the Sabres back in the day, when we were say 2 goals behind in the 2nd period we still made an effort and in some cases came back and won the game. Now, we're down 2 goals in the 2nd period and the whole team shuts down like there isn't a chance to win.

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02-24-2013, 10:46 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by enrothorne View Post
Just as an eye opener, last night after the game Drew Stafford showed up at the pink. Imo, he should be no where near beer with the effort he's shown this year. I seriously doubt his commitment to maximize his talent.
To reemploy language I used about him earlier this year, it is time we stop waiting for that frog to turn into a prince. Drew is who he is as a player.

The knock on him has always been his commitment to the game and work ethic both on and off the ice. He has had a few stretches where he seemed to care enough to play to his potential, but IMO those only acted to mask who he truly is as a player.

I am fully on board with him no longer being on this roster. His apathy and lack of work ethic is what this team needs to purge (and he has plenty of company on that hopefully soon to be disembarking train)

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02-24-2013, 11:36 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post

Montreal's boards last year looked similar to this, with posters begging Gauthier to trade off guys like Plekanec, Gorges, Emelin, Bourque, et al. for picks and prospects. They disliked their prospect pipeline and wanted to use those trades to supplement it. Far be it from me to say anything with even a tinge of optimism, but I don't see a drastic difference between us and last year's Habs.
Montreal's "turn around" is a healthy Markov and a real coach. It's as simple as that. Unless you think that Tyler Myers has a bruised vagina and will lead us to victory next year I don't see why people bring up Montreal.

And honestly I would have taken much of Montreal's roster last year over Buffalo's.

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02-24-2013, 11:56 AM
  #316
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The NHL's come a long way in nearly 20 years. That can't and won't happen anymore, as much as we'd appreciate a team that does.

You know what you'd have? The post-lockout Islanders. Ironically.
Guys who work hard, hit, and can fight? There is still a place for that in the game and as product goes, it's something to watch while they retool.

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02-24-2013, 11:59 AM
  #317
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Yes, this team isn't the most talented in the league but they are not as bad as their record indicates. As Ryan Miller pointed out mid last week, the problem is cultural, this team has no identity. Rolston is not the answer in my mind. What is needed is a very aggressive, "in-your-face" Torts type of coach who will have the balls to sit someone like Myers upstairs for weeks at a time, or send a guy like Gerbe down to the AHL (regardless of waiver implications). Statements like that will make the boys realize that their are real consequences for poor play... That failing to adopt the coaches system could mean the end of ones career. Enough of the Hockey Heaven garbage, this group needs hockey hell.

Does that make this group cup contenders? Probably not, but on paper this group should at least be challenging for a playoff spot and if you add a ROR and another big minute D man they could be close.

If the cultural issue isn't dealt with we can draft high all we want, the result will be similar to what has occurred in Florida, Columbus, NYI...etc.

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02-24-2013, 12:00 PM
  #318
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Yep. Time for a full rebuild. The only players i wouldn't want to trade is grigs, hodgson, myers, armia, and ehrhoff.

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02-24-2013, 12:12 PM
  #319
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Can someone offer a legitimate explanation as to how this team, with almost the same roster, was one of the best in the league for about 1/3 of the season last year? That stretch was too long to be attributed to desperation. There is obviously enough talent on the team to be successful. The question is, why have they fallen apart? The original thought was we needed to get rid of Derek Roy, and then Lindy. Bringing in a guy like Ott was supposed to help. Until I can understand this, I don't know how much re-building we need to do.

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02-24-2013, 12:12 PM
  #320
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Seriously, trade everyone and fire everyone, this locker room needs a complete overhaul, too many people are too comfortable and not willing to do what it takes night in and night out. I'd rather watch a team full of 3rd Ott's than a team of the ********* players we have now.

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02-24-2013, 12:14 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
and campbell
While Zhitnik, Satan, Briere, Drury, Lydman, Tallinder, and Spacek are all examples of him muddling on rather than reaping potential UFA wind-falls at the deadline. Re-upping Connolly can also fall into that category too.

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02-24-2013, 12:24 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
While Zhitnik, Satan, Briere, Drury, Lydman, Tallinder, and Spacek are all examples of him muddling on rather than reaping potential UFA wind-falls at the deadline. Re-upping Connolly can also fall into that category too.
Based on this, I would say 1/2 of Vanek/Miller/Poms/Stafford needs to be gone by the deadline.

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02-24-2013, 12:29 PM
  #323
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While Zhitnik, Satan, Briere, Drury, Lydman, Tallinder, and Spacek are all examples of him muddling on rather than reaping potential UFA wind-falls at the deadline. Re-upping Connolly can also fall into that category too.
Well Zhitnik and Satan don't really count, after the first lockout Darcy declined to keep them making them UFAS, unless you meant in 03-04 but that year we were striving to make the playoffs.

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02-24-2013, 12:35 PM
  #324
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Actually some do believe that and they frequently reference the Pens as proof.



Also you've constantly ranted over the years that getting rid of Roy would be addition by subtraction. That his mere presence was a detriment to the team having success. How's that theory working out this year?

Or that Ruff is holding various players back and this team is much better than their record. Haven't seen you trumpet that one lately.


I agree the team needs a rebuild. My only disagreement is with the idea that we need to completely gut the roster and suck for years to rebuild into a team with Cup winning potential.
The way I see it Josh, a top 3 pick this year on the heels of last year's strong draft puts the team 2/3 of the way through the "crap out and rebuild through draft" portion of the plan. Trading Vanek or Poms at the deadline for a proven young sniper gets us 3/4 of the way there.

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02-24-2013, 01:58 PM
  #325
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Well Zhitnik and Satan don't really count, after the first lockout Darcy declined to keep them making them UFAS, unless you meant in 03-04 but that year we were striving to make the playoffs.
Striving and failing. Part of Regier's tenure has been under the "just eek in" ownership of Golisano, yet at the same time, he didn't maximize his possible return with any of those guys when presented with the opportunity. This team has bled UFA's for more than a decade.

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