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The Oilers aren't being built properly

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Old
02-24-2013, 11:52 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
I wasn't expecting better because even on paper we're not built right.
We also aren't finished building. We're improving, but some of our key players are certainly slumping. Doom and gloom thread.

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02-24-2013, 11:58 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
I just used the examples of 2-3 great rebuilds (PIT, CHI) for you and you just scoffed at them. I don't think you understand what a re-build is...

Sometimes you have to make tough decisions to improve your team. Pittsburgh moved Staal. Chicago let Havlat go. SJS traded Setoguchi after a tremendous playoff year. But they used moves like this to help address holes in their line-up and depth chart.

You're just too attached to the players, that's the problem.
1) Pittsburgh moved Staal because he wasn't going to stay long term anyway. It wasn't a move made to improve their team.

2) Chicago let Havlat go? Oh no, not Havlat. Are you forgetting that they upgraded him to Hossa?

3) San Jose traded Setogouchi at an all time high value, and he has kind of proven to be a player who didn't warrant the return they got. If we had a player who's could be used to fill a key hole, then maybe we'd do it. But aside from the core players, we don't.

Notice how all three of those teams had an excess of depth to trade? Right now, if we make a trade of one of our every day players, we're creating a hole in the roster. Especially because a lot of our guys seem to have little interest around the league. Unless you are suggesting that we trade a core piece like Hall or Eberle, which none of your three examples had to do. The fact is that, yes, we need to improve our defense, and yes, we need to get some tougher forwards, but if the moves aren't out there, we have to hope we can fix the issue via free agency this summer.

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02-24-2013, 12:32 PM
  #78
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All kinds of knee jerk reactions in this thread, but understandably so. This team has been incredibly frustrating to watch at times. I have to keep reminding myself how young our core of Nuge-Hall-Eberle-Yakupov and even Gagner are. I hate to say it because he's still one of my favorite players, but I think Hemsky is the one to go. There is no point in trading him til we find a capable top 6 winger with some grit to take his place. Gagner doesn't look nearly as weak on the puck this year. It's crazy to watch him now compared to previously, he is starting to look like a man out there. He realized he will not be able to play in the NHL with skill alone, as his skills were not elite enough to translate effectively from junior.

The other huge team need is a 2-3 d-man. If we find that guy and at least one of Klefbom, Marincin, Musil etc turn into a capable NHL player, we should be alright back there. N Schultz and Whitney should be easy to eventually replace with FA, but I wouldn't count on getting the defenseman this team needs via that route.

If we can balance our top 6 and add another good quality defenseman who doesn't handle the puck like a cinder block, this team will make crazy leaps and bounds. There is absolutely no excuse for not trying to make huge improvements in this offseason.

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02-24-2013, 12:35 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Insta View Post
The average age of the Oilers top 6 is 22. Let that sink in for a minute. It would be lower but old-man Hemsky brings it up.
/end thread

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02-24-2013, 01:09 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Did anybody watch the postgame interviews on the Oilers' website? Mikkel Boedker flat-out stated that the Oilers (paraphrased) "Are pretty dangerous for a team with no structure."

Call that comment sour grapes or whatever but I thought it was pretty damning.
Not really suprising.

New coach, no training camp, not enough practices, and pretty clearly the defensive system is the priority over the offense. Seems to be the balance of things, as the Oilers are respectable defensively for the first time in 5 years, but terrible offensively.

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02-24-2013, 01:17 PM
  #81
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If your going with a small top 6, your bottom six HAS to be gritty. It needs to be filled with speedy gritty guys like Glencross, Burish, Jones, Tootoo. Guys like Smyth, Petrell, Horcoff, Belanger are not even close to being these guys.

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02-24-2013, 01:52 PM
  #82
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When I watched episode 1 of Oilchange this season and saw Tambi and Co. saying they didn't have to do anything during Free Agency because they had landed Yak and Schultz, well I knew we were in for a lot more of the same.

Another year of a young, unbalanced, frustrating team that will lead to another top pick at the draft.

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02-24-2013, 02:01 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
I have an opinion that I'm sure won't be too popular here. I know HFOil fans and how they react to threads like this. I've been on that end of it at times and now I'm the one starting it. Here it is.

The media describes our team as "exciting", "fun to watch" etc.. We are not fun to watch. Our team is built to be run and gun, offensive, high scoring hockey and we are 28th in scoring along with trap teams like Minnesota and Nashville. Fifteen of our 38 goals have been 5 on 5. The next highest, San Jose, has 23 in one less game played. Pathetic numbers for a team many claim to have the best offensive core in the league. We can't just wait for a PP and take advantage of it. That's not how you are going to win. Unfortunately that's how our team is being built right now. We are unbelievably skilled but we are small and soft. We aren't a team that wins battles in the corners and drives to the net. That is why we can't score 5 on 5 but we can score on the PP at will with possession. Don't get me wrong, I think we have made the right decisions with our 1st overall picks the past 3 years, but for those who think we're going to be a a contender with a top heavy lineup as we have are out to lunch.

I look at our team in 2006 that made that amazing run to the finals. If Roloson doesn't get injured, very good possibility it's another Stanely Cup for the Oilers. Why was that team so dominant in the playoffs? Why was LA so dominant last playoff season? Many reasons; Both teams were dominant on faceoffs. They gained possession off faceoffs all the time and started offensive chances like that. When they didn't have the puck they were so dominant physically that they were able to gain the puck back like that. THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY HOCKEY, AND WIN. The Oilers are so small and so soft and they can't win a faceoff for the life of them so they are always chasing the puck and waiting for the opposing team to miss their chance rather than forcing them off the puck before that chance occurs. We have no one on our team like the '06 Torres, Stoll, Smyth kind of players.

I see Oilers fans making comparisons to Detroit when someone says soft puck possession teams can't be successful. Detroit had one of the best defenseman that's ever played the game, so comparing us to be Detroit is simply not fair. Look at Detroit now. They lost Lidstrom and now they are battling for a playoff spot just as we are. They still have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Brunner.. all these awesome offensive players like the Oilers have. Detroit has relied on Lidstrom for years and now we are seeing the results of it.

I agree that you can't just have a full team of grinders and no skill. Same thing as we have right now, skill and no grinders. We need balance. Our team in '06 had balance. It had gritty hard forecheckers like Torres, Smyth, Moreau, Stoll, Pisani but it had skill in Hemsky, Horcoff, Samsonov, Bergeron. LA had the same sort of thing going on.

This season has not been what I expected it to be no matter how close we are to a playoff spot. It worries me that a team that's supposed to be a puck possession offensive team is now turning into a defensive team that's very easy to play against. I don't think our team is built properly and I don't think it will go anywhere in the playoffs until we make major changes.

In a salary cap world maybe trading a Yakupov would be for the best in the long run.

- Sorry if this thread seems a little all over the place. I basically put all my thoughts in at once.

Sorry, but I'll have to shoot your post down with the comparison to the 2006 team with one name - Chris Pronger. And even with the big talented lug, they only made the playoffs on the last day of the season and mostly due to Vancouver crapping the bed. Stick CP into this lineup and see what happens on a nightly basis.

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02-24-2013, 02:20 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
1) Pittsburgh moved Staal because he wasn't going to stay long term anyway. It wasn't a move made to improve their team.

2) Chicago let Havlat go? Oh no, not Havlat. Are you forgetting that they upgraded him to Hossa?

3) San Jose traded Setogouchi at an all time high value, and he has kind of proven to be a player who didn't warrant the return they got. If we had a player who's could be used to fill a key hole, then maybe we'd do it. But aside from the core players, we don't.

Notice how all three of those teams had an excess of depth to trade? Right now, if we make a trade of one of our every day players, we're creating a hole in the roster. Especially because a lot of our guys seem to have little interest around the league. Unless you are suggesting that we trade a core piece like Hall or Eberle, which none of your three examples had to do. The fact is that, yes, we need to improve our defense, and yes, we need to get some tougher forwards, but if the moves aren't out there, we have to hope we can fix the issue via free agency this summer.
I just don't see Eberle as a core forward the way you do. I think once Yakupov starts to show that he's an offensive force, it'll be time to move Eberle while his value is high. You're right - doing that trade now is just ill-advised because we have no idea where Yakupov is going production-wise. But once he starts to show flashes of his 1st overall pedigree, you have to realize which one of these 2 players has higher value. ANA moved Lupul instead of Getzlaf in that Pronger trade, because they knew that Getzlaf would eventually supersede Lupul, who at that point was the higher-scoring, established scoring winger.

If Yakupov is on track to replace or even upgrade Eberle's production, then it's time to move him while the value is high in a package to address another organizational need (2-way, face-off winning 2nd line C).

IMO there's no point having 2 undersized, similarly-skilled wingers with #1 line caliber talent. One is bound to wallow away with second-rate minutes - and we waste talent. Might as well move it to address other organizational needs.

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02-24-2013, 02:21 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Gret99zky View Post
When I watched episode 1 of Oilchange this season and saw Tambi and Co. saying they didn't have to do anything during Free Agency because they had landed Yak and Schultz, well I knew we were in for a lot more of the same.

Another year of a young, unbalanced, frustrating team that will lead to another top pick at the draft.
Yup...its pretty telling when a GM thinks that adding 2 more rookies is the answer to the question.

I guess I need to join the blinded by hope legion of Oiler fans because there is little to no reason to believe that Tambo is going to magically get a clue.

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02-24-2013, 02:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
I just don't see Eberle as a core forward the way you do. I think once Yakupov starts to show that he's an offensive force, it'll be time to move Eberle while his value is high. You're right - doing that trade now is just ill-advised because we have no idea where Yakupov is going production-wise. But once he starts to show flashes of his 1st overall pedigree, you have to realize which one of these 2 players has higher value. ANA moved Lupul instead of Getzlaf in that Pronger trade, because they knew that Getzlaf would eventually supersede Lupul, who at that point was the higher-scoring, established scoring winger.

If Yakupov is on track to replace or even upgrade Eberle's production, then it's time to move him while the value is high in a package to address another organizational need (2-way, face-off winning 2nd line C).

IMO there's no point having 2 undersized, similarly-skilled wingers with #1 line caliber talent. One is bound to wallow away with second-rate minutes - and we waste talent. Might as well move it to address other organizational needs.
Eberle and Yakupov are not very similar... Yak is fast, gritty and passes and shoots hard... Eberle is a slick sniper. A team should have enough secondary scoring and should easily accomodate both players. Once Yakupov fills out he'll be a 100 hit\ season player..
There is no organizational need great enough to trade one of these 2.

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02-24-2013, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Eberle and Yakupov are not very similar... Yak is fast, gritty and passes and shoots hard... Eberle is a slick sniper. A team should have enough secondary scoring and should easily accomodate both players. Once Yakupov fills out he'll be a 100 hit\ season player..
There is no organizational need great enough to trade one of these 2.
Really? I feel having a good 2C is more important than having a good 1LW/RW. I also feel 1D/2D are more important positions than #1 wingers.

I'd rather get a return of ROR+ for Ebs with ROR as our 2C and Yakupov our 1RW of the future. You could use Gagner+ at that point to get a Voracek-type winger to play RW for RNH, while Yakupov anchors the 2nd line offensively.

*note - 1RW doesn't necessarily mean you play with the RNH line, but that you are getting more TOI/game than any other RW on the team. Yakupov could literally play on the 2nd line in this case but get more overall TOI than whoever is on the RNH line, by virtue of #1 unit PP time.


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02-24-2013, 02:35 PM
  #88
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Really? I feel having a good 2C is more important than having a good 1LW/RW. I also feel 1D/2D are more important positions than #1 wingers.
Gagner is not ideal but if he continues to score near PPG he is good enough to be our #2C .. Even if he isnt the answer his value is high enough to land us a bigger less offensive #2C without having us to trade away Eberle.

IMO our core is set and all we really need is one more big gritty body in top 6 and an upgrade over N.Schultz on D.

Smid, Petry, J.Schultz, Fistric, <hopefully> Klefbom would give us decent defense.

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02-24-2013, 02:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Gagner is not ideal but if he continues to score near PPG he is good enough to be our #2C .. Even if he isnt the answer his value is high enough to land us a bigger less offensive #2C without having us to trade away Eberle.

IMO our core is set and all we really need is one more big gritty body in top 6 and an upgrade over N.Schultz on D.

Smid, Petry, J.Schultz, Fistric, <hopefully> Klefbom would give us decent defense.
If this was true I would never have come up with the Eberle trade proposal at all.

I just honestly don't believe there's a GM in the league that would move a ROR/M.Richards-type player for a Sam Gagner - which is why I think it'll take someone like Eberle to land them.

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02-24-2013, 02:39 PM
  #90
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This is like saying an unfinished House isn't built correctly.
No, this team is like a half built house with toothpicks and Steve Tambellinni is the project manager telling you everything is going to be fine.


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02-24-2013, 02:46 PM
  #91
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In regards to our "core", I feel up front we have 2 guys to build around in Hall/RNH, with Yakupov/Ebs duking it out for that final core 1F spot.

I'm not convinced with Gagner at 2C - I feel even though he's looking great offensively, he may be over-achieving. And the improvements in his defensive game aren't good enough to justify him at 2C. It takes an elite 2-way center to win the Cup. Every team since the lockout has had one (Brind'amour, Getzlaf, Dats/Zetter, Crosby/Staal, Toews/Bolland, Bergeron, M.Richards/Kopitar). Right now we have RNH operating at a sub-elite (yet impressive) level in that regard, but we really need a 2C to take over so that he can concentrate on offensive production.

As for our D - I don't think we can say yet that J.Schultz is going to be a true top-pairing defenseman. He's looked steady - but so did Gilbert in his first few games as an Oiler. I'll tentatively slot him as our core 2D, but that could always change.
We are a true #1D away from completing our defensive core. I don't know how we're going to achieve this unless Schultz turns a corner and Klefbom blows everyone away. It's likely going to involve moving a bunch of our talent up front and spending on UFA forwards.

The "core" is 50% set IMO. There's still a lot this team needs to figure out regarding its future direction.

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02-24-2013, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
In regards to our "core", I feel up front we have 2 guys to build around in Hall/RNH, with Yakupov/Ebs duking it out for that final core 1F spot.

I'm not convinced with Gagner at 2C - I feel even though he's looking great offensively, he may be over-achieving. And the improvements in his defensive game aren't good enough to justify him at 2C. It takes an elite 2-way center to win the Cup. Every team since the lockout has had one (Brind'amour, Getzlaf, Dats/Zetter, Crosby/Staal, Toews/Bolland, Bergeron, M.Richards/Kopitar). Right now we have RNH operating at a sub-elite (yet impressive) level in that regard, but we really need a 2C to take over so that he can concentrate on offensive production.

As for our D - I don't think we can say yet that J.Schultz is going to be a true top-pairing defenseman. He's looked steady - but so did Gilbert in his first few games as an Oiler. I'll tentatively slot him as our core 2D, but that could always change.
We are a true #1D away from completing our defensive core. I don't know how we're going to achieve this unless Schultz turns a corner and Klefbom blows everyone away. It's likely going to involve moving a bunch of our talent up front and spending on UFA forwards.

The "core" is 50% set IMO. There's still a lot this team needs to figure out regarding its future direction.


Maybe Gagner as a#1 center is a better fit and Nuges apparent physical game which i think already equals Sams is a better #2 fit. sams physicality comes from puck pursuit and Nuge is a standup type of physical guy who will take guys subtely out of the plays positionally at the right times, they are very different in how they bring it. To my eye Nail and Ryan have instant chemistry, actually I think there are only four or five Oilers who process and react as fast as those two, I see Yak actually setting up Nuge more than people imagine he could because of his insane reaction times and pass tactics, they both can teleport the puck to others players sticks. I dont think anyone is stopping these two from coming together to lead this team, Hall and Ebbs will have tons of pressure off their shoulders at this time next year, we just havent seen the line combos we need to see, once this season defines itself either way and we either can or are forced to take more creative risks we might see some fireworks. Ralph will not set fire to the wind quite yet, not until we are teetering on the edge.

We need to switch our defensive template to tall and solid lanky long reach d-men who can ALL execute a standup check and recovery high on the blueline and then regain dominant zone position. J Schultz is hancuffed by the system we use which is made up of set plays, he is pigeonholed into the lunchbucket brigade. When we evolve into the template above he will be our only offensive threat of that caliber and we will have him on the 1st pairing activating on every play action. I think we are close to where we need to be with our d-men, we just need to add the standup checking at the high blueline areas which is key to stopping the adjusted hybrid. We have been trying to get balanced offense out of our d-men and this is a grave error, our system is better executed with 3 lines of tight defense hard heavy stop and drop you at the blueline defense and one wide open offensive line. Likely the Schultzes fit the offensive 1st line role.

If we begin to use this defensive posture then we will allow our offense to add 25% more firepower instantly, and our breakaways will increase dramaticlly, as a bonus we will force most teams out of their comfort zones by snufing their transitions early and hard. If we keep a solid forward cycling defensive prescence behind the d-men committing then we will see some great breakouts upice.

I think we will see a d-man break in soon named Tuebert because of his ability to make solid and committed standup hits cleanly high at the blueline and recover quickly, he is a tall, lanky, tough stay at home defenseman as we will need 5 of 7 men to be. We need to decide if we want to catalyse our defense deep inside our own zone or on the blueline, if its low then the forwards can run interference in the n-zone, if its high then they can cycle out from deep in our zone to support the standup defense with upice pressure immediatly.

This is important because we need a baseline to select body types from, if we want standup pressure we need the tall lanky strong types and if we are willing to play chess and want to allow them to enter the zone then we need smaller more agile and quick men in those spots, this is a critical set of dynamics that must match the system we want to use, its not as plug and play as people wish it were. i see our 1st defensive pair being J Schultz and whoever is able to best support his offensive style. The rest all need to be clones, tall, lanky, long reach, stick smart, tough , stay at home d-men who can stand players up at the blueline and recover first.

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02-24-2013, 03:59 PM
  #93
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I just used the examples of 2-3 great rebuilds (PIT, CHI) for you and you just scoffed at them. I don't think you understand what a re-build is...

Sometimes you have to make tough decisions to improve your team. Pittsburgh moved Staal. Chicago let Havlat go. SJS traded Setoguchi after a tremendous playoff year. But they used moves like this to help address holes in their line-up and depth chart.

You're just too attached to the players, that's the problem.
Keep in mind Pittsburgh had already won a cup and Staal declined their 10 year extension. He asked to be traded to Carolina, this has absolutely nothing to do with how to "rebuild properly".

The Hawks let go of Havlat because they were going to bring Hossa in, I would be fine with the Oilers do a moving like that (lets say moving Hemsky) as long as they had a replacement like Chicago did.

I say we keep Yakupov and Eberle, you need two top-6 RWs. Move Hemsky and Gagner eventually keep Hall, RNH, Yakupov and Eberle. What the Oilers really need is to land a legitimate player through UFA.

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02-24-2013, 04:13 PM
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I just don't see Eberle as a core forward the way you do. I think once Yakupov starts to show that he's an offensive force, it'll be time to move Eberle while his value is high. You're right - doing that trade now is just ill-advised because we have no idea where Yakupov is going production-wise. But once he starts to show flashes of his 1st overall pedigree, you have to realize which one of these 2 players has higher value. ANA moved Lupul instead of Getzlaf in that Pronger trade, because they knew that Getzlaf would eventually supersede Lupul, who at that point was the higher-scoring, established scoring winger.

If Yakupov is on track to replace or even upgrade Eberle's production, then it's time to move him while the value is high in a package to address another organizational need (2-way, face-off winning 2nd line C).

IMO there's no point having 2 undersized, similarly-skilled wingers with #1 line caliber talent. One is bound to wallow away with second-rate minutes - and we waste talent. Might as well move it to address other organizational needs.
Management sees Eberle as part of the core....hence why he signed that contract...

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02-24-2013, 04:17 PM
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No, this team is like a half built house with toothpicks and Steve Tambellinni is the project manager telling you everything is going to be fine.

Listen we got two free 2X4s (Yakupov Schultz) in the summer, no need to go back to the hardware store.

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02-24-2013, 05:18 PM
  #96
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I'm not concerned because I know that at the end of the day, when this team's contending, there's no way all 5 of Ebs/Hall/RNH/Gags/Yakupov are going to be on this team.

Players will be moved to address deficiencies. It's going to hurt a lot of feelings too. But the team will be better for it.
Yup. And people should be totally okay with it. One of Eberle or Hall should be the first to go. RNH has been garbage this season but he's untradeable given his status and future as their bonafide #1 centre. Lots of tweaking left to be done.

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02-24-2013, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post

I'd rather get a return of ROR+ for Ebs with ROR as our 2C and Yakupov our 1RW of the future.
Unless the + is a significant piece I don't think it's best to downgrade a player even if the new player coming in fits the team better. Not to mention Colorado is not bargaining from a strong position with a player that refuses to sign with them. I think Ebs for O'Reilly straight up could easily be a disaster, and Colorado isn't going to give much more for Eberle. Keep the better overall player (Eberle still has a very bright future it is not like we are selling high on him) and move lesser assets or work free agency to acquire a proper #2c.

Although with our management's creativity acquiring a #2c means waiting for a player to develop over 3-4 years after drafting one.

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02-24-2013, 06:12 PM
  #98
Mr Forever
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Originally Posted by Burtch66 View Post
This is like saying an unfinished House isn't built correctly.
It seems as if this unfinished house if being built from the roof down.

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02-24-2013, 06:20 PM
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Jimmi McJenkins
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Originally Posted by Mr Forever View Post
It seems as if this unfinished house if being built from the roof down.
Makes sense, that's why they've traded for all the guys they have and aren't trying to build through the draft at all

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02-24-2013, 06:24 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Makes sense, that's why they've traded for all the guys they have and aren't trying to build through the draft at all
My comment had nothing to do with the fact they're building around forwards and not D and a goalie. I'm glad you caught that.

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