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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings
The concept of a play-in here is, by definition, unnecessarily complicated and, furthermore, punishes the fourth-place teams in divisions where it's already more difficult to land in fourth place, by forcing them into an extra playoff round that the fourth-place teams in easier divisions get to avoid.
The only way for a wild card to make sense would be to allow for the top three teams in, say, both Eastern Divisions to automatically qualify (preserving the importance of divisional standings) and then select the final two playoff spots by awarding Wild Cards to the remaining two teams (from either division) with the most points. It's simple, straightforward, and something done by both baseball and football.
Playoff matchups then are: Division winners against the two wild cards. Two seed against three seed within the division.
1A 4B*
2A 3A
1B 5B*
2B 3B
* Wild Card
This is not what the NFL does, but ok. They want DIVISIONAL play-offs. What happens when the 4B team wins the first 2 rounds and you have the Maple Leafs as the Pacific Champs? Secondly, the conferences are NOT going to be linked the way the divisions are now and how they were in the 80s and 90s. So, in that case this WOULD be linking the conferences.
If they have this wild card it will be simple. the 4th and 5th place teams will play either a play-in game, or maybe a best of 3. Whether it is done for every conference or just the 8-team conferences, I haven't seen. If it is only done for the 8-team conferences since it would be more "fair" that they only have to beat out 3 teams to get into the play-offs.
- if you're going to have 2 7-team conferences and 2 8-team conferences, why not put the 8-team conferences in the EST, where you have 16 teams. Makes things a lot easier for tv and game timings. Additionally, the tougher travel in the west 'balances' with the worse playoff chances in the east.
- i dont like the idea of a wildcard round. 4/8 is fine.
- as i said last night, losing detroit will make a lot of west teams unhappy, especially chicago. That said, detroit's national tv ratings and exposure could get a huge boost playing more games in their own timezone and it could end up being a net-positive for the league.
- winnipeg in the central is fine. They dont need to be with the other canadian teams. It makes more sense to play games in their timezone (or an hour off) than to be playing a bunch of pacific time games. I suspect minnesota and chicago could develop into solid rivalries for them.
- this move might save columbus as a franchise. Playing in the 'atlantic' gives them a ton of marquee matchups against big-name teams to sell tickets at home and having more games in the EST will be a huge boon to tv ratings and exposure.
- expansion/relocation wise, this hurts QC - because it doesnt make sense to move detroit and columbus east just to move one back to the central next year (phoenix) or in ~4-5 years (expansion). On the other hand, it doesnt really say anything about GTA2. GTA2 could easily fit into the 'central', a concession that might make the leafs more open to allowing the team in the league, as southern ontarians could cheer for both teams simultaneously because the odds of a playoff matchup would be pretty long. That move would also give winnipeg an in-conference canadian rival. On the west side, it heavily favors seattle expansion, plus one more pacific/mountain TZ team if phoenix is relocated.
- Florida: giving up on the SE will be a very good thing for washington and carolina, but florida still gets a bunch of good draws with 4 O6 teams and 6 snowbird teams. The intera-floridian rivalry was always bigger than what they had with the rest of the SE anyways.
How is there no East or West anymore?? A two-Conference system is still part of that proposal. It also appears to have a top-8 plan for the Playoffs, and likely 3 Rounds of in-Conference Playoffs. Though with that alignment it would mean no more ETZ teams playing against P/M/CTZ teams in the Playoffs until the Cup Final.
No, it doesn't. That is why they are calling them CONFERNCES instead of DIVISIONS. The conferences will be separate. So the 3rd round could be Rangers-Vancouver, Canadiens-Stars.
How is there no East or West anymore?? A two-Conference system is still part of that proposal. It also appears to have a top-8 plan for the Playoffs, and likely 3 Rounds of in-Conference Playoffs. Though with that alignment it would mean no more ETZ teams playing against P/M/CTZ teams in the Playoffs until the Cup Final.
Friedman also said another idea that’s being tossed around involves a way to even out the playoff format in the two bigger conferences.
“Now the other thing that’s being talked about is a potential wild card for those two conferences of eight teams,” said Friedman. “That’s the players’ biggest concern. They want there to be a more even chance in those two larger conferences, and I think they’re working on some sort of wild card.”
Yes, the 'two bigger conferences' he is referring to are eastern time zone teams, they are not part of any larger structured 'Eastern Conference'.
From my understanding of the last proposal, teams would essentially play their 82 games divided by their intra-conference schedule for their own conference games, and then an inter-conference schedule for each of the other three conferences.
There is no east or west anymore. Chicago will see the other O6 teams the exact same amount as New York will. It is just the new 'northeast+FLA' conference that will be stacked with O6 teams.
This new arrangement may end up being preferable, schedule wise, for the Blackhawks. Now, in stead of getting Detroit 3 times and maybe one home game against a couple of the other O6 teams, now the Hawks know that every single year they will host each of their 5 original 6 rivals. Now Hawks fans get to see Detroit, Boston, New York, Toronto and Montreal come to town at least once a year, in addition to the rivalries that will develop in their new division, and everyone else at least (or in the positive sense, for boring, non-draw franchises, only) once a year. Instead of that second visit from Phoenix or Anaheim (no offense intended to those teams), now you are getting a visit from Montreal, New York or Pittsburgh.
Nashville, St. Louis, Chicago, Minnesota and Winnipeg form a pretty great corridor of travellable road trips as well. Frankly, once you get past the loss of the Detroit rivalry, I think Chicago does pretty well with this alignment.
As a Leaf fan, who's team has jumped around a bit, I think I can say that rivalries comes and go. I loved the Leafs playing in the old Norris division, but I have grown to love their current division just the same. When it comes to fans getting passionate about a certain opposing team, I find it really doesn't matter as much who the other team is so much as it is just that they are doing it to your team. A couple of nasty divisional playoff games between Chicago and the Jets or the Wild and Detroit leaving the division won't seem so terrible.
Once you get past that Chicago loses their rival? Well, yeah...that is easy to say. That was the only thing that most of us cared about. Retaining St Louis and Detroit were the most important things of the entire realignment. Great...we have the Jets who nobody cares about. You really think a rivalry between the Winnipeg Jets and Chicago Blackhawks could ever be as good as a Detroit Red Wings and Chicago Blackhawks rivalry?
And this is without having any meaningful playoff series in a long time. The matchup in 09 was very one sided but one win by the Hawks and the Wings would no doubt be back into it.
Detroit Pistons - Chicago Blackhawks = wow, great rivalry especially early in the late 80s early 90s when Jordan couldn't beat Isiah Thomas and company..until finally in the WCF the Bulls beat them and win their first championship. Jordan and Isiah hated each other.
Detroit Lions - Chicago Bears = Not a lot lately, but I still enjoy the rivalry. A couple dirty hits from scum bad Ndong Suh and it gets the fans blood rushing with hate. I remember growing up watching Barry Sanders and wanting like hell to stop him. The games are always fun and sometimes hate filled by the players.
Detroit Tigers - Chicago Whitesox = Don't know much about the rivalry honestly, but I know Whitesox fans can't stand the Tigers. Hard to have a good rivalry when there are so many more Cubs fans than Sox fans but I know there is bad blood in the AL Central from these two teams. I know the Sox call them their main rival, not too sure about the Detroit side.
Detroit Red Wings - Chicago Blackhawks = The two teams to play each other the most in NHL history. Tons of history behind this rivalry going back in the day when the two owners absolutely despised each other and tons of hate...the fans have always had a dislike for each other and it seemed this rivalry was just starting to heat up again after years of crappy Hawks teams and dominant Wings teams...
But, now it looks like the NHL will be the only league of the 4 that doesn't have a Detroit and Chicago team in the same division, lets not even talk about a 7 team conference. Even in the 4 team division they are together. It makes all the sense in the world to keep them together but that must be why the NHL has decided to part them. The last proposal was fine...why did they have to screw Chicago and St Louis? I am honestly disgusted right now that they screw this rivalry like they did the to us with the Leafs and North Stars. There are no positives to this IMO when all they had to do was one single thing to keep Hawks fans happy and they couldn't even do that.
Winnipeg will 'disappear' if they're not in a division with Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver. They'll be stuck in no-man's land. They'll never figure prominently on HNIC if they're not at least road teams on the second half of double-headers. Putting them in a division with all American teams is a terrible idea. Might as well leave them where they are. It makes no sense.
Any proposal where Winnipeg isn't with Edm, Cgy and Van is a bad one, as far as I'm concerned. This isn't about geography, it's about natural rivals, and not trying to force something that just isn't there.
I just don't see how taking away the Detroit-Chicago rivalry and Winnipeg-Edmonton rivalry in favor of a Chicago-Winnipeg 'rivalry' makes any sense.
I love the idea of going back to divisional playoff rounds again, but it means nothing if the right teams aren't in the right divisions.
So, scrap it because it is bad for one team? Yet, the team has apparently said they are not worried about being with all the Canadian teams? Maybe they don't get as many games on HNIC. Instead, they get more on their local station where all the money goes to the Jets instead of the HNIC money which is split.
Once you get past that Chicago loses their rival? Well, yeah...that is easy to say. That was the only thing that most of us cared about. Retaining St Louis and Detroit were the most important things of the entire realignment. Great...we have the Jets who nobody cares about. You really think a rivalry between the Winnipeg Jets and Chicago Blackhawks could ever be as good as a Detroit Red Wings and Chicago Blackhawks rivalry?
And this is without having any meaningful playoff series in a long time. The matchup in 09 was very one sided but one win by the Hawks and the Wings would no doubt be back into it.
Detroit Pistons - Chicago Blackhawks = wow, great rivalry especially early in the late 80s early 90s when Jordan couldn't beat Isiah Thomas and company..until finally in the WCF the Bulls beat them and win their first championship. Jordan and Isiah hated each other.
Detroit Lions - Chicago Bears = Not a lot lately, but I still enjoy the rivalry. A couple dirty hits from scum bad Ndong Suh and it gets the fans blood rushing with hate. I remember growing up watching Barry Sanders and wanting like hell to stop him. The games are always fun and sometimes hate filled by the players.
Detroit Tigers - Chicago Whitesox = Don't know much about the rivalry honestly, but I know Whitesox fans can't stand the Tigers. Hard to have a good rivalry when there are so many more Cubs fans than Sox fans but I know there is bad blood in the AL Central from these two teams. I know the Sox call them their main rival, not too sure about the Detroit side.
Detroit Red Wings - Chicago Blackhawks = The two teams to play each other the most in NHL history. Tons of history behind this rivalry going back in the day when the two owners absolutely despised each other and tons of hate...the fans have always had a dislike for each other and it seemed this rivalry was just starting to heat up again after years of crappy Hawks teams and dominant Wings teams...
But, now it looks like the NHL will be the only league of the 4 that doesn't have a Detroit and Chicago team in the same division, lets not even talk about a 7 team conference. Even in the 4 team division they are together. It makes all the sense in the world to keep them together but that must be why the NHL has decided to part them. The last proposal was fine...why did they have to screw Chicago and St Louis? I am honestly disgusted right now that they screw this rivalry like they did the to us with the Leafs and North Stars. There are no positives to this IMO when all they had to do was one single thing to keep Hawks fans happy and they couldn't even do that.
I get what you are saying, and no Bhawks-Jets would never be Bhawks-Wings, but if they play 3 or 4 times in a row in the play-offs, it will make for a great rivalry. Like you said, what has happened to Bulls-Pitons? It was great when they were playing in the play-offs, but is it really anything now?
I agree, it is a shame that the Wings and Hawks won't be in the same division. But for some reason, being with East Time Zone teams seems to be more important to the Wings.
Winnipeg will 'disappear' if they're not in a division with Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver. They'll be stuck in no-man's land. They'll never figure prominently on HNIC if they're not at least road teams on the second half of double-headers. Putting them in a division with all American teams is a terrible idea. Might as well leave them where they are. It makes no sense.
Any proposal where Winnipeg isn't with Edm, Cgy and Van is a bad one, as far as I'm concerned. This isn't about geography, it's about natural rivals, and not trying to force something that just isn't there.
I just don't see how taking away the Detroit-Chicago rivalry and Winnipeg-Edmonton rivalry in favor of a Chicago-Winnipeg 'rivalry' makes any sense.
I love the idea of going back to divisional playoff rounds again, but it means nothing if the right teams aren't in the right divisions.
Its great! Now we will get 'in progress' Winnipeg drop ins on HNIC during intermission of the Leafs games.
Also, CBC (or whoever will have HNIC in the years to come) has loads of pull. Winnipeg will still get their Saturday 6 p.m. home game when Toronto or Montreal comes to town; the NHL and CBC will make sure of it.
Winnipeg fans showed up to see Lowell, Massachusetts and Syracuse, New York. They will show up for Nashville and St. Louis.
Also, home and away with everyone. That is the huge benefit to everyone with this proposal.
Friedman also said another idea that’s being tossed around involves a way to even out the playoff format in the two bigger conferences.
“Now the other thing that’s being talked about is a potential wild card for those two conferences of eight teams,” said Friedman. “That’s the players’ biggest concern. They want there to be a more even chance in those two larger conferences, and I think they’re working on some sort of wild card.”
Yes, the 'two bigger conferences' he is referring to are eastern time zone teams, they are not part of any larger structured 'Eastern Conference'.
From my understanding of the last proposal, teams would essentially play their 82 games divided by their intra-conference schedule for their own conference games, and then an inter-conference schedule for each of the other three conferences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg
No, it doesn't. That is why they are calling them CONFERNCES instead of DIVISIONS. The conferences will be separate. So the 3rd round could be Rangers-Vancouver, Canadiens-Stars.
Okay, Now someone PLEASE answer this for me!!!
If they're still talking 4 Conferences and not 4 Divisions in two Conferences, then why the hell does Detroit and Columbus need to be separated from Chicago, St Louis, and Nashville??? The previous realignment scenario already showed that Detroit and the CTZ teams all improved immensely their travel and schedule. So what's the pressing need to have Detroit and Columbus in all "Eastern" Conferences? Detroit could easily be kept with Chicago. Hell, the Florida teams could even be added into the Central Division with Nashville and you could still have Columbus or Detroit join the East. IF there's no 2-Conferences, then there's no need for any kind of a strict East-west split of the teams.
If they're still talking 4 Conferences and not 4 Divisions in two Conferences, then why the hell does Detroit and Columbus need to be separated from Chicago, St Louis, and Nashville??? The previous realignment scenario already showed that Detroit and the CTZ teams all improved immensely their travel and schedule. So what's the pressing need to have Detroit and Columbus in all "Eastern" Conferences? Detroit could easily be kept with Chicago. Hell, the Florida teams could even be added into the Central Division with Nashville and you could still have Columbus or Detroit join the East. IF there's no 2-Conferences, then there's no need for any kind of a strict East-west split of the teams.
I just don't see the point of bringing back the "Winnipeg Jets" if not to bring back their rivalries with the Vancouver Canucks, Edmonton Oilers and Calgary Flames. Smythe Division hockey is something the NHL should want to try to recreate.
Those playoff series weren't only about the players who were partaking on the ice. It's about the cities and the fans even moreso.
And to that end, taking Detroit away from Chicago and St. Louis is just as bad. I can't recall the last time I wasn't riveted watching a game between two of these three teams.
Rivalry should take precedence over geography, travel and convenience. It won't, but it should.
Detroit and Columbus want to play in their time zone, simply put.
I don't agree with putting Detroit in the "east", but it's clearly something the Red Wings want.
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Certainly can't ask you guys, because none of you have an explanation or even seem to care if there is one.
Oh, but someone will say that it's because of likely expansion to Seattle and another western site. Probably the same people (or maybe a whole different group of people) who claimed last year that the 8-8/7-7 split was to make room for two teams on the east.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge
Detroit and Columbus want to play in their time zone, simply put.
I don't agree with putting Detroit in the "east", but it's clearly something the Red Wings want.
They already made a huge gain with the previous proposal and not having to play the P/MTZ teams more than twice a year and not in the first 3 Rounds of the Playoffs.
The PA didn't want unbalanced Conferences, but to make two Conferences balanced that meant that one of Columbus or Detroit had to go into AN Eastern Conference. But neither Detroit nor Columbus wanted the other to have that privilege; so the League (or whoever has put this proposal together) has put the both in the East in the hope that that change will somehow appease the PA (or I don't know who still needs to be appeased). I don't recall Detroit or Columbus voting against the previous realignment plan.
Even in the 4 team division they are together. It makes all the sense in the world to keep them together but that must be why the NHL has decided to part them. The last proposal was fine...why did they have to screw Chicago and St Louis? I am honestly disgusted right now that they screw this rivalry like they did the to us with the Leafs and North Stars. There are no positives to this IMO when all they had to do was one single thing to keep Hawks fans happy and they couldn't even do that.
Obviously, the Chicago-Detroit rivalry isn't as important to Detroit, as it was Detroit that wanted to move to the East. You can't pin this on Bettman or anyone in the NHL front office....this is TOTALLY on the Illitch family.
I would've also preferred that Detroit remain in the Central and get the whole Norris gang back together again....Minnesota, Chicago and Detroit have traditional rivalries in football and baseball, and should have that in the NHL again as well.
I dont like this I prefer more division rivalries not large sterile conferences. I liked it when teams played division teams 8 times and an NFL system with division playoffs would be better too.
I get what you are saying, and no Bhawks-Jets would never be Bhawks-Wings, but if they play 3 or 4 times in a row in the play-offs, it will make for a great rivalry. Like you said, what has happened to Bulls-Pitons? It was great when they were playing in the play-offs, but is it really anything now?
I agree, it is a shame that the Wings and Hawks won't be in the same division. But for some reason, being with East Time Zone teams seems to be more important to the Wings.
I'd love to keep the Hawks around somehow, but being in that division is better than being with the Hawks. The Hawks alone aren't worth the rest. There's nothing else in the central that even remotely approaches the interest of Montreal, Boston, and Toronto to this Wings fan.
...okay, Minnesota would be interesting to have around too due to other sports. But as far as Nhl history goes, they're pretty much irrelevant to the wind compared to the leafs and habs.
Obviously, the Chicago-Detroit rivalry isn't as important to Detroit, as it was Detroit that wanted to move to the East. You can't pin this on Bettman or anyone in the NHL front office....this is TOTALLY on the Illitch family.
I would've also preferred that Detroit remain in the Central and get the whole Norris gang back together again....Minnesota, Chicago and Detroit have traditional rivalries in football and baseball, and should have that in the NHL again as well.
Again, they voted in favor of the previous realignment proposal which kept them with Chicago and the CTZ, while still separating them from the P/MTZ teams; and at the same time immensely improving their travel.
If they're still talking 4 Conferences and not 4 Divisions in two Conferences, then why the hell does Detroit and Columbus need to be separated from Chicago, St Louis, and Nashville??? The previous realignment scenario already showed that Detroit and the CTZ teams all improved immensely their travel and schedule. So what's the pressing need to have Detroit and Columbus in all "Eastern" Conferences? Detroit could easily be kept with Chicago. Hell, the Florida teams could even be added into the Central Division with Nashville and you could still have Columbus or Detroit join the East. IF there's no 2-Conferences, then there's no need for any kind of a strict East-west split of the teams.
Are you serious with this? Really? Call them Conferences, Divisions, Leagues, whatever you want. The whole thing has been about getting teams like Dallas in a division with teams from their time zone. Detroit has been wanting the East for years. They have 16 teams in the Eastern Time Zone. 2 8-team divisions made up of eastern time zone teams makes sense. Getting winnipeg out of the southeast. The league wants the regional rivalries, hence why it is done by geography. However, there is NO alignment that can please EVERY team. It is just not going to work.
I dont like this I prefer more division rivalries not large sterile conferences. I liked it when teams played division teams 8 times and an NFL system with division playoffs would be better too.
I agree up to where you said division play-offs like in the NFL. They call the 2nd round the divisional round, but it is nothing like what the NHL is proposing.
Are you serious with this? Really? Call them Conferences, Divisions, Leagues, whatever you want. The whole thing has been about getting teams like Dallas in a division with teams from their time zone. Detroit has been wanting the East for years. They have 16 teams in the Eastern Time Zone. 2 8-team divisions made up of eastern time zone teams makes sense. Getting winnipeg out of the southeast. The league wants the regional rivalries, hence why it is done by geography. However, there is NO alignment that can please EVERY team. It is just not going to work.
Why do Detroit and Columbus have to be further pleased? They voted in favor of the previous proposal. Montreal and the Florida teams (or one of them) voted against the previous proposal; and the PA rejected it. What does any of that have to do with pleasing Detroit with this proposal?
Again, they voted in favor of the previous realignment proposal which kept them with Chicago and the CTZ, while still separating them from the P/MTZ teams; and at the same time immensely improving their travel.
Hasn't it been widely reported that Detroit wants out of the West and into the East? I'm fairly certain that, if the NHL had it's way, Detroit would remain in the West.
This is not what the NFL does, but ok. They want DIVISIONAL play-offs. What happens when the 4B team wins the first 2 rounds and you have the Maple Leafs as the Pacific Champs? Secondly, the conferences are NOT going to be linked the way the divisions are now and how they were in the 80s and 90s. So, in that case this WOULD be linking the conferences.
Of course it's linking two divisions into a conference. If they are going to reject the simple (and, IMO preferred) top four in each division qualifying, this is the simplest, most straightforward approach. Awarding playoff berths to wild cards within conference (NFL) or league (MLB) is precisely what those two sports do. Sports fans already understand and accept this concept. Adding "crossover" or play-in matchups is unnecessary.
BTW, how do you know for a fact that there will be no linkage between conferences anyway? At this point it's (almost) all speculation. And as for the scenario I offered, there's no way an Eastern 4B team would be "Pacific" champion. If such a team wins its first two rounds, then it qualifies for the final four. If the two qualifying eastern teams are from the same division, who cares? I still prefer straight divisional qualification and two-rounds of playoffs. But this is still better than unnecessary play-ins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg
If they have this wild card it will be simple. the 4th and 5th place teams will play either a play-in game, or maybe a best of 3. Whether it is done for every conference or just the 8-team conferences, I haven't seen. If it is only done for the 8-team conferences since it would be more "fair" that they only have to beat out 3 teams to get into the play-offs.
Adding an extra round of playoffs for the four seed, simply because they happen to be in a (mathematically) more difficult division in the first place, is asinine, overly complicated, and ... probably exactly what we'd expect from the geniuses running the NHL.
Again, they voted in favor of the previous realignment proposal which kept them with Chicago and the CTZ, while still separating them from the P/MTZ teams; and at the same time immensely improving their travel.
Is there any source on them voting in favour? The detailed results were never disclosed.
Mind you, I think they did because only 4 voted against, and I have my own speculation as to the 4 (the Florida teams and two NE canadian teams).
Again, they voted in favor of the previous realignment proposal which kept them with Chicago and the CTZ, while still separating them from the P/MTZ teams; and at the same time immensely improving their travel.
Right, and the PA shot it down. So, now they came up with this idea which Detroit likely voted in favor of, as well. We could probably come up with 100 proposals that Detroit would approve and 100 they wouldn't. They are not married to one concept.
