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Saku Koivu vs Scott Gomez

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Old
08-13-2010, 01:10 PM
  #1
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Saku Koivu vs Scott Gomez

I want to gage some others thoughts aside from Habs fans on this one. I am of the feeling Saku was the more talented player during their careers and always felt he was under appreciated by many Habs fans.

I also am openly not a very big supporter of Scott Gomez. I guess I'm trying to find out if my dislike for Scott Gomez is clouding my judgement.

Peak/Career who was the better hockey player. IMO it was Saku Koivu.

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08-13-2010, 01:15 PM
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the edler
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saku koivu

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08-13-2010, 01:20 PM
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jkrx
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Koivu for me even though he is/was a bit of a dissapointment in the NHL because of injuries/cancer. He never developed into an offensive cannon. However they have both 0.80 ppg in their career and I would say that Koivu is a bigger impact on a team.

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08-13-2010, 01:31 PM
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Koivu had the greater talent of the two. He still plays a great two way game. He's one of the players you look at and say "what if..."

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08-13-2010, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Koivu for me even though he is/was a bit of a dissapointment in the NHL because of injuries/cancer. He never developed into an offensive cannon. However they have both 0.80 ppg in their career and I would say that Koivu is a bigger impact on a team.
An argument for Koivu too is the fact he has always had a patchwork of wingers to play with. Never really having a consistant proven performer. Gomez played on superior teams and had linemates like Elias and Gionta.

I absolutely think Koivu now even at his age offers more value for his $.

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08-13-2010, 02:48 PM
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I suppose they're pretty close in value, though I've also always been a fan of Koivu and not so much with Gomez. Koivu just has so much heart, usually has had less to work with and was relied on more, and has generally stepped it up in the playoffs despite mediocre teams (Gomez has 3 finals runs with New Jersey, but he wasn't a huge part of those teams)

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08-13-2010, 03:37 PM
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The reality is that you would be hard-pressed to find more comparable players. Koivu always had the superior leadership abilities and worked with a significantly lesser supporting cast during his time in Montreal, and Gomez probably wasn't quite as good defensively (although I think that he was a better passer between the two), and Gomez was fortunate enough to play on three Stanley Cup Finals teams (winning in 2000 and 2003). It's a shame that Koivu had so many problems with durabilitity though. He was actually leading the NHL in points deep into the 1996-97 season before getting injured and Gomez never quite attained those heights for such a substantial period of any season.

Their career averages are as follows though:

Regular-Season

Saku Koivu: 62 GP 15 goals 35 assists 50 points (82 game pace: 20 goals 46 assists 66 points)
Scott Gomez: 78 GP 16 goals 47 assists 63 points (82 game pace: 17 goals 50 assists 67 points)

Playoffs/Post-Season

Saku Koivu: 82 game pace - 24 goals 49 assists 73 points
Scott Gomez: 82 game pace - 18 goals 41 assists 59 points

That's a damn close call but, like I said, you have to take into account the fact that Koivu never really played with a talented winger during his tenure in Montreal, save for the enigmatic Kovalev, and he was stricken with so many injuries, the cancer, etc. Gomez should get points for remaining healthy but on a pure talent basis I think that Koivu was the superior player. He also elevated his game in the playoffs on some pretty weak Habs teams (excluding the 2008 squad that won the Eastern Conference in the regular-season). If only he had remained healthy...

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08-13-2010, 04:16 PM
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Psycho Papa Joe
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NHL wise it's pretty close, as the numbers posted by JaysCyYoung above show, but Koivu's significant international resume gives him the edge to this point in their respective careers. Gomez has much more time to build on his personal resume though.

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08-13-2010, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Koivu's significant international resume gives him the edge to this point in their respective careers
exactly ... every time koivu played for finland in the olympics [4 times] the team ended up top three with a medal, when he was out 2002 in salt lake city finland also happened to suck

world championships 51 17+39 56
olympics 28 9+21 30
world cup 10 4+4 8

it's a little puzzling when you see people here sometimes saying international play is 'irrelevant' ... like how? how is it 'irrelevant'? david koci, andrew peters, peter worrell and players like that plays in the nhl, but not internationally, that's all i can say about that logic

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08-13-2010, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
exactly ... every time koivu played for finland in the olympics [4 times] the team ended up top three with a medal, when he was out 2002 in salt lake city finland also happened to suck

world championships 51 17+39 56
olympics 28 9+21 30
world cup 10 4+4 8

it's a little puzzling when you see people here sometimes saying international play is 'irrelevant' ... like how? how is it 'irrelevant'? david koci, andrew peters, peter worrell and players like that plays in the nhl, but not internationally, that's all i can say about that logic
I forgot to consider their international play here, and I think it's a big factor in Koivu's favour. I'm not sure how many people think international play is irrelevant though, as I've seen in brought up numerous times in comparison threads.

I think international play needs to be seen in context though. If you have a large resume like Koivu, it gives a good picture, but one tournament or even just a few impressive international moments (such as winning a gold, or scoring a big goal, despite only average play otherwise) is too small a sample size imo.

As well, the countries need to be considered as well. With Finland, they've usually done very well in tournaments, but they've never had a ton of big name stars. As such, Koivu has always had the opportunity of being the first (occasionally second) line centre when he plays in these tournaments, which would not be the case if he played for a team like Canada, or Russia or Sweden. Also, with those stronger rosters, they're more likely to play the hot hand on a game to game basis, whereas Finland would be more likely to play like an NHL team, and send their top couple of players out in every important situation.

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08-13-2010, 06:07 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regal View Post
I forgot to consider their international play here, and I think it's a big factor in Koivu's favour. I'm not sure how many people think international play is irrelevant though, as I've seen in brought up numerous times in comparison threads.

I think international play needs to be seen in context though. If you have a large resume like Koivu, it gives a good picture, but one tournament or even just a few impressive international moments (such as winning a gold, or scoring a big goal, despite only average play otherwise) is too small a sample size imo.

As well, the countries need to be considered as well. With Finland, they've usually done very well in tournaments, but they've never had a ton of big name stars. As such, Koivu has always had the opportunity of being the first (occasionally second) line centre when he plays in these tournaments, which would not be the case if he played for a team like Canada, or Russia or Sweden. Also, with those stronger rosters, they're more likely to play the hot hand on a game to game basis, whereas Finland would be more likely to play like an NHL team, and send their top couple of players out in every important situation.
You can add USA to this list as well. Koivu wasn't outplaying Roenick, Modano, or even Doug Weight. Well, maybe he was in 2002 -- again, it's definitely arguable -- but we all know what happened that year.

Roenick was done in 2006, but Gomez was IMO a better player than Koivu at that time. Modano was still very good (last great season, so to speak), and Team USA might have opted for Brian Rolston over Koivu, too. Regardless, Koivu probably wouldn't have earned much Top-6 IT with Team USA at any time in his career, though national teams tends to work a little differently in that regards.

Those three guys were also "complete" players, which means Koivu doesn't have much of a grit/2 way factor over them. Same for Rolston, actually.


Back on topic --- yes, all in all, Gomez and Koivu are really good comparables. Their game is different than their stats indicates though. Gomez is a good playmaker, but he just doesn't make good use enough of it --- he shoots way too much for a pure playmaker, and the fact that his shot is somewhat AHL-esque doesn't help him. Koivu tended to use the tools that he had more effectively. Case in point : Koivu's highest shot count is 154. Gomez's LOWEST shot count is 155. And while Koivu was oft-injured, he has an higher ATOI (1 minute) than Gomez, and it's not like Koivu never played full seasons.


Last edited by MXD: 08-13-2010 at 06:27 PM.
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Old
08-13-2010, 07:01 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
You can add USA to this list as well. Koivu wasn't outplaying Roenick, Modano, or even Doug Weight. Well, maybe he was in 2002 -- again, it's definitely arguable -- but we all know what happened that year.

Roenick was done in 2006, but Gomez was IMO a better player than Koivu at that time. Modano was still very good (last great season, so to speak), and Team USA might have opted for Brian Rolston over Koivu, too. Regardless, Koivu probably wouldn't have earned much Top-6 IT with Team USA at any time in his career, though national teams tends to work a little differently in that regards.

Those three guys were also "complete" players, which means Koivu doesn't have much of a grit/2 way factor over them. Same for Rolston, actually.
Um... out of curiosity, is there a particular reason we're whipping all the way to 2006 with a brief stop in 2002 when discussing international players here? That's skipping over a LOT of Koivu's first games at the "top" international level(s), and straight to post-cancer Koivu. I mean, it could be argued that Koivu was playing at a higher level than anyone the US sent to the Nagano Olympics, for example, when he was still a healthy 23/24 year old.

To compliment any expansion on the international play aspect here (and any ensuing player style contrasts, or whatever), I'll post links to the scoring leaders from each of the "major" (non-WJC) tournaments Koivu has played in:

'92 World Championship
'94 Olympics
'93/94 World Championship
'94/95 World Championship
'95/96 World Cup
'96/97 World Championship
'98 Olympics
'98/99 World Championship
'02/03 World Championship
'03/04 World Cup
'06 Olympics
'07/08 World Championship
'10 Olympics

Note that you can choose any team to focus on using the drop-down bar at the top. Feel free to sort by age (U20, U19, etc) if you're curious (if any youngin's did crack those squads). Between that and the ability to click on the blue arrows beside team and event names, EP is a great site to explore.

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08-13-2010, 08:43 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Um... out of curiosity, is there a particular reason we're whipping all the way to 2006 with a brief stop in 2002 when discussing international players here? That's skipping over a LOT of Koivu's first games at the "top" international level(s), and straight to post-cancer Koivu. I mean, it could be argued that Koivu was playing at a higher level than anyone the US sent to the Nagano Olympics, for example, when he was still a healthy 23/24 year old.

To compliment any expansion on the international play aspect here (and any ensuing player style contrasts, or whatever), I'll post links to the scoring leaders from each of the "major" (non-WJC) tournaments Koivu has played in:

'92 World Championship
'94 Olympics
'93/94 World Championship
'94/95 World Championship
'95/96 World Cup
'96/97 World Championship
'98 Olympics
'98/99 World Championship
'02/03 World Championship
'03/04 World Cup
'06 Olympics
'07/08 World Championship
'10 Olympics

Note that you can choose any team to focus on using the drop-down bar at the top. Feel free to sort by age (U20, U19, etc) if you're curious (if any youngin's did crack those squads). Between that and the ability to click on the blue arrows beside team and event names, EP is a great site to explore.
Great post, I kinda forgot how impressive Koivu has been over the years in international play. Really, really impressive. I have a real hard time dealing with the fact we let him walk to replace him with Scott Gomez. I realize they are in different points of the careers and so on, but it wouldn't be that much of a stretch, to say Koivu, even nearing the end of his career, isn't that far behind.

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08-13-2010, 09:44 PM
  #14
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It really is easy to forget how good Koivu actually was before his first knee blowout in 96/97 and all the other injuries and cancer that followed.

He started the 96/97 season as a sophomore on fire, racking up like 40 points in 30 games, leading the entire league in scoring, on pace for about 110 points and then his knee gets crunched.
He was never the same after, going through 4 more injury riddled seasons before the cancer hit.

Crying shame really.

...and you wanna talk heart.....recovering from cancer, played just 3 regular season games and he leads the Habs in the playoffs with 10 points in 12 games.

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08-13-2010, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Um... out of curiosity, is there a particular reason we're whipping all the way to 2006 with a brief stop in 2002 when discussing international players here? That's skipping over a LOT of Koivu's first games at the "top" international level(s), and straight to post-cancer Koivu. I mean, it could be argued that Koivu was playing at a higher level than anyone the US sent to the Nagano Olympics, for example, when he was still a healthy 23/24 year old.
.
Because he would have had to beat two of Modano, Roenick and Weight for a C spot, which was not going to happen?

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08-13-2010, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Great post, I kinda forgot how impressive Koivu has been over the years in international play. Really, really impressive. I have a real hard time dealing with the fact we let him walk to replace him with Scott Gomez. I realize they are in different points of the careers and so on, but it wouldn't be that much of a stretch, to say Koivu, even nearing the end of his career, isn't that far behind.
Koivu was impressive. But was he was the go-to C from the start for Finland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It really is easy to forget how good Koivu actually was before his first knee blowout in 96/97 and all the other injuries and cancer that followed.

He started the 96/97 season as a sophomore on fire, racking up like 40 points in 30 games, leading the entire league in scoring, on pace for about 110 points and then his knee gets crunched.
He was never the same after, going through 4 more injury riddled seasons before the cancer hit.

Crying shame really.

...and you wanna talk heart.....recovering from cancer, played just 3 regular season games and he leads the Habs in the playoffs with 10 points in 12 games.
Again, nothing against the guy, but at all relevant times, a GM would have been wrong to pick him over Modano, Roenick and Weight for an hypothetical Team USA.

And that's why I say that we shouldn't give that much importance to the international games in the Koivu vs. Gomez debate. Because if Koivu would have been in Gomez place.

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08-14-2010, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Koivu was impressive. But was he was the go-to C from the start for Finland.
Wait... it sounds like you're almost saying this as a "negative". Don't see how that works. Every year, people sit down and rank international teams "on paper", and very rarely does anyone ever put Finland in the top 4. Canada, Russia, Sweden, USA. Every time. And yet, at the end of almost every tournament, where does Finland finish? Top 4. And who has the long record of not only spearheading those teams in terms of leadership, but also scoring through all of this "over-achieving" (if you can call it that anymore)?

Saku Koivu. Again, just because he's "the default" #1 guy for Finland doesn't take away from what he was able to accomplish both personally/individually and subsequently as a team internationally against the best other countries had to offer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Again, nothing against the guy, but at all relevant times, a GM would have been wrong to pick him over Modano, Roenick and Weight for an hypothetical Team USA.

And that's why I say that we shouldn't give that much importance to the international games in the Koivu vs. Gomez debate. Because if Koivu would have been in Gomez place.
You'll have to expand on that for me a little bit. You've listed 3 centres there, so I can only assume that the "given" 4th here is Lafontaine or something. I'm obviously guessing as to the "relevant times" here, as well. If it is 1998 we're talking about here, I have to think that the poor performance of those treasured players weighed against Koivu and Selanne leading the Olympics in scoring that year leaves a bit of room to suggest that he perhaps "could" have replaced one of Modano (injury shortened year, little production in the OG), Roenick (we're talking 28 year old Phoenix Roenick here, not Chicago Roenick), Weight (wait... he wasn't there was he?), or even Lafontaine (33 and in his retirement year) without making the team perform any "worse".

But going forward to "more relevant" times (let's say, the 2004 World Cup), I think you're fooling yourself if you believe there's absolutely no chance that the US coach would gladly send Gomez packing if it meant taking on Koivu in his stead. Even in 2006, a mere shadow of his former self, I think there's a possibility that many would have substituted Gomez for Koivu if given the option. One of those players ended up as an Olympic all-star that year. Care to guess which one?

Also, why wouldn't he have made an adequate replacement for a 35 year old Modano (only 2 points all Olympics), 35 year old Weight (3 points), or 33(?) year old Weight (0 points)? Surely it's possible that the captain of Team Finland, who ended up with 11 points that Olympics, could have not only found a place on that team, but perhaps replaced one of those guys (if his name was Zack Kobasew instead) and at least equaled their contribution that year, too.

THAT's why it probably SHOULD be given at least a modicum of importance in a Koivu vs Gomez debate. Even if he couldn't/shouldn't actually be considered above the players you listed, that still leaves the issue of whether or not, at "any time" (obviously restricted to the 2004 WC and 2006 Olympics), he could have replaced Gomez. Not an open and shut case for either side of the debate.

I realize that this could come across as very fanboyish, especially given the avatar, but most of Koivu's setbacks and missed time only seem relevant with respect to his production in the NHL. And given that it (scoring in the NHL) still compares favourably with Gomez's body of work to date (minus the title "NHL Champion", of course), the fact that cancer and myriad injuries never prevented him from being a key contributor for many, many years internationally seems to make the international aspect at least a valid "tie-breaker"... even if it has to be reduced to that level.

Let me make it clear though: I use it as a measuring stick of his "calibre" just as much as a factor in his "career value". And I could be mistaken for imparting that kind of weight/importance to it.

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08-14-2010, 04:07 AM
  #18
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Koivu wins this by the size of his heart. I once read an article, don't know where, which put it very well. Suddenly people in Montreal realized that this small shy guy with heart of a lion had become the face of the franchise.
Koivu is usually very respected by his team mates (unless they're a ****** called Ribeiro), and allegedly saved team Finland's bronze game in 2010 by taking over the coach on the 2nd intermission.
And then there's the money...looking at their contracts, which player would you want on your team right now?

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08-14-2010, 05:11 AM
  #19
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i know one of the 'problems' with koivu was that he played a too 'aggressive' game for how small he was, 5'10 ... i know when he started out he ran around and hit a lot of guys 6'2 or taller with a lot of pounds and strength in advantage, and it played back on him ... i think there was a coach that was even forced to tell him to calm down or it would destroy him, which it probably also did

remind you that koivu made his first appearance in the nhl in a time when monster eric lindros was three season's into the league and ran the show, and nhl teams went coco for guys 6'4 and wade belak, mike rupp, scott parker and guys like that went in the first round ... it wasn't perhaps an environment that exactly fitted koivu optimally, in a time when defenders like derian hatcher and mike rathje were allowed to piggy back you 60 minutes a game

i think koivu easily could have scored 80 or 90 points a season if he was healthy from the start and played with a decent scorer, he was that good

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03-03-2013, 10:00 AM
  #20
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Now would be the right time to bump this thread as both Koivu and Gomez seem to be near the end of their careers. In 2010 they were very close to each other in career PPG but Gomez had the edge in best offensive season. After that Gomez has had 38 and 11 point seasons as Koivu had 45 and 38 point seasons. This season Gomez has 2 points against Koivu's 20 points. Both have appeared once in the play-offs since then, Gomez had 4 points in 7 games for Montreal in 10-11 post season, Koivu had 7 points in 6 games for the Ducks in the same season.

What do you think. Which one has been the better player during their careers. Gomez has a career PPG of 0.75, Koivu has 0.77. In the NHL play-offs Gomez has 0.71PPG against Koivu's 0.92.

If Gomez fades away at this young age and Koivu goes on to have a couple of 40 point seasons, even get to lift the cup in Anaheim will there ever be a debate of Koivu vs. Gomez?

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03-03-2013, 12:01 PM
  #21
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I had Gomez in the last MLD. I take Koivu.

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03-03-2013, 12:51 PM
  #22
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Saku becouse he was a beast internationally.

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03-03-2013, 02:59 PM
  #23
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I think Koivu is better in every department.

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03-03-2013, 03:23 PM
  #24
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Koivu was better in the playoffs too.

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03-03-2013, 03:26 PM
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I think Koivu is better in every department.
Except passing, yeah.

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