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Old
02-26-2013, 08:35 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I don't think you've read this thread. *I* didn't compare him to Cooke and Torres, the person you were cheering on did. He also said the Bruins need a Torres/Cooke "type." If you agree with that I'd be shocked and pretty disappointed.
What about a guy like Zac Rinaldo?

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02-26-2013, 08:37 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Sure I have. I don't agree with Zylos about his love for adding a Cooke or Torres type of player, but that aside, the point that folks here seemingly look the other way regarding dirty play as long as the player is wearing the right jersey is very accurate, IMO. Marchand has crossed the line quite a bit in his short career. He plays a very dirty style.
His style should be embraced by the Bruins fan instead of denied or excuse made like "He's not THAT bad"...

Maybe because I don't live in the Boston area, but the Flyers, Devils and Rangers fans here all consider Lucic and Marchand two of the dirtier players in the league. I guess they are all wrong...

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02-26-2013, 08:40 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I'd be curious to hear from the guys who know and follow the fight game closely...

Who are the up and coming fighters who can play a little?

Is there anyone in the league who can go toe to toe with the Scott/Orr types but is also capable of skating a regular shift?
Luke Gazdic

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02-26-2013, 09:34 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
His style should be embraced by the Bruins fan instead of denied or excuse made like "He's not THAT bad"...

Maybe because I don't live in the Boston area, but the Flyers, Devils and Rangers fans here all consider Lucic and Marchand two of the dirtier players in the league. I guess they are all wrong...
Lucic is not a dirty player, and neither is Chara. Both are routinely accused of being so. If they WERE, the trail of destruction they would leave would be staggering.

Lucic's biggest problem is his temper, but usually he'll drop the gloves to respond. Sometimes he doesn't, and that's when he gets in trouble (see the Weaver hit). But he's not a head hunter who is deliberately trying to injure people. And neither is Chara; he's a big strong guy who's going to hurt someone now and then because hockey is a violent sport. If he WAS a dirty player, he would have killed somebody by now.

As for Marchand, as Julien has said, there is a good brat Marchand and a bad brat Marchand. Good brat agitates and annoys and skates the line; bad brat crosses it. The Bruins like and encourage the former; the latter gets his behind sat on the bench and gets chewed out in Julien's office. Have we seen bad brat this season? I don't think so, and hopefully we never do again. I share Chiarell and Julien's attitude: good brat good; bad brat not wanted.

As for what I think of Rinaldo? A JAG who tries to get noticed by being a tough guy.

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02-26-2013, 09:45 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Lucic is not a dirty player, and neither is Chara. Both are routinely accused of being so. If they WERE, the trail of destruction they would leave would be staggering.

Lucic's biggest problem is his temper, but usually he'll drop the gloves to respond. Sometimes he doesn't, and that's when he gets in trouble (see the Weaver hit). But he's not a head hunter who is deliberately trying to injure people. And neither is Chara; he's a big strong guy who's going to hurt someone now and then because hockey is a violent sport. If he WAS a dirty player, he would have killed somebody by now.

As for Marchand, as Julien has said, there is a good brat Marchand and a bad brat Marchand. Good brat agitates and annoys and skates the line; bad brat crosses it. The Bruins like and encourage the former; the latter gets his behind sat on the bench and gets chewed out in Julien's office. Have we seen bad brat this season? I don't think so, and hopefully we never do again. I share Chiarell and Julien's attitude: good brat good; bad brat not wanted.

As for what I think of Rinaldo? A JAG who tries to get noticed by being a tough guy.
I tend to agree, but I am a Bruins fan.

I do think Lucic ran Miller on purpose, and Marchand has been suspended 7 games already, so there is a flat out dirty part to their game at times. I don't think that can be argued, even by we Bruins fans.

As for Rinaldo, he's been getting some third line duty...looks to be "evolving" somewhat...Was on the ice in a one goal game the other night and got an empty net goal, so he is working...

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02-26-2013, 09:57 AM
  #106
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I would take Rinaldo. Brings lots of energy. With a little more discipline as Claude is wont to impart on his players, he could be a useful energy player for the 4th line.

Regarding Lucic or Chara or Marchand, we will never see those players through the lens that opposing fans do. If I am a Montreal fan watching Chara drive Pacioretty into the wall or Lucic plow over Miller, I'm sure I have the same view of them that Bruins fans do of guys like Rinaldo, Kaleta, et al.


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02-26-2013, 11:01 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Lucic is not a dirty player, and neither is Chara. Both are routinely accused of being so. If they WERE, the trail of destruction they would leave would be staggering.

Lucic's biggest problem is his temper, but usually he'll drop the gloves to respond. Sometimes he doesn't, and that's when he gets in trouble (see the Weaver hit). But he's not a head hunter who is deliberately trying to injure people. And neither is Chara; he's a big strong guy who's going to hurt someone now and then because hockey is a violent sport. If he WAS a dirty player, he would have killed somebody by now.

As for Marchand, as Julien has said, there is a good brat Marchand and a bad brat Marchand. Good brat agitates and annoys and skates the line; bad brat crosses it. The Bruins like and encourage the former; the latter gets his behind sat on the bench and gets chewed out in Julien's office. Have we seen bad brat this season? I don't think so, and hopefully we never do again. I share Chiarell and Julien's attitude: good brat good; bad brat not wanted.

As for what I think of Rinaldo? A JAG who tries to get noticed by being a tough guy.
sucker punch to Meyer
high stick to (Laps) face with intent
Boarded Rinaldo
What he did to Burrows behind the net and then jamming his finger in his face during the cup in 2011....he pretty much tried to take his head off
How he gave Nash a concussion
Running Miller

all of that says otherwise. lucic is a dirty player.... and once you can take off your homer glasses you may see that some day

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02-26-2013, 11:12 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
What about a guy like Zac Rinaldo?
Lou Baby,

you are finally seeing the light! I knew you had it in ya

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02-26-2013, 11:31 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by zylos45 View Post
sucker punch to Meyer
high stick to (Laps) face with intent
Boarded Rinaldo
What he did to Burrows behind the net and then jamming his finger in his face during the cup in 2011....he pretty much tried to take his head off
How he gave Nash a concussion
Running Miller

all of that says otherwise. lucic is a dirty player.... and once you can take off your homer glasses you may see that some day
Well, there's no end to this debate so I'll say this and leave it at that.

I can accept that fans on all sides will look at rugged players on other teams and call them dirty. I know I'm not going to change anybody's mind who says that Lucic is dirty.

However, I would resist putting that label on Lucic. I would also not call Kaleta or Carcillo or Orr or countless others in those categories "dirty" either. I see these guys as being rugged players who sometimes do cross the line, but generally play within the rules or on the edge, and generally back it up when called on to be accountable. Sometimes things get a little messy or mistakes are made and I'm not one to apologize excessively when this happens - it has been like that since hockey started and if not for the crazy amount of scrutiny that the media puts on every little thing that happens, some of these incidences would drift by without much additional thought, though of course there are some that are egregious and deserve scorn. I don't see Lucic involved in the latter type of incident.

I reserve the "dirty" label for the true sub-human element, guys like Cooke, Torres, old friend Hansen up in Vancouver, maybe even Kronwall and all his chronic cheap head shots - those types. There are a lot of guys who play tough hockey, occasionally crossing the line, and you'd find that guys like Lucic and countless others are in good company with the many stars and HOF members over the years who also play a hard nosed brand of hockey that is not pretty.

Again, I understand that in the Internet age its de rigeur for fans to get all lathered up about anything they can sink their teeth into to run down the opposing team and players. Lucic is a spot picking bully. I get it, that's the meme and more power to those who want to spend their time playing with it. But much of this stuff just falls under the umbrella of tough hockey and the sometimes ugly plays that come with it. The fact is, 29 other teams would love to have Lucic or any number of "hated" players around the league.

Me, I'll take Zac Rinaldo, try to calm down his excesses a bit, and appreciate the energy he brings to the table. The Bruins have not had a young energy player in awhile trying to prove that he needs to stick. That's something the team lacks as the current core group has been around, knows they are here to stay, and are not quite so eager to prove their worth every shift. It is part of the maturation of this team and I think they could use a role player with that kind of hunger.

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02-26-2013, 12:25 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by zylos45 View Post
sucker punch to Meyer

As I said, when Lucic loses his temper, look out. Meyer gave him a shot to the jaw, and Lucic retaliated.

high stick to (Laps) face with intent

Yup, lost his temper again, young and stupid (2009) but experienced enough to know that sweet, innocent Max LaPierre isn't coming over to give him a kiss.

Boarded Rinaldo

“It’s hockey, you hit and go into the boards, I don’t think it was dirty at all,” Rinaldo said. “Shoulder-to-shoulder and just momentum. He’s big guy, maybe double my weight. His momentum carried him into the boards awkwardly. I don’t think it was dirty at all.”

What he did to Burrows behind the net and then jamming his finger in his face during the cup in 2011....he pretty much tried to take his head off

Burrow deserved to have his head taken off. I'm assuming you didn't watch the game, because moments before, Burrows slashed Thomas's catching hand so hard (after he'd covered the puck) that you could hear Tomas cry out over the TV broadcast.

How he gave Nash a concussion

Oh good lord. Even 95% of Rangers fans are saying that was a clean hit.

Running Miller

Yup, he hit Miller. Cry me a river.

all of that says otherwise. lucic is a dirty player.... and once you can take off your homer glasses you may see that some day
THIS is a dirty player:


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02-26-2013, 12:31 PM
  #111
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I say this as someone that doesn't currently have a dog in this fight: Artemis, every time you post a defense like that, you're kind of confirming what some other people are saying.

People say that B's fans overlook/excuse questionable plays by their own guys, and then you come in and say why the questionable play was acceptable or not as bad as the bad plays by the guys on other teams. It's literally doing what the person you're arguing with is claiming that people do - justifying questionable hits by their own favorites.

And IMHO, just posting a dirtier player isn't a valid argument about the cleanliness of another player. Could Jannik Hansen supporters say that he's not dirty by posting the Cooke "hit list" video?

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02-26-2013, 12:33 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zylos45 View Post
sucker punch to Meyer
high stick to (Laps) face with intent
Boarded Rinaldo
What he did to Burrows behind the net and then jamming his finger in his face during the cup in 2011....he pretty much tried to take his head off
How he gave Nash a concussion
Running Miller

all of that says otherwise. lucic is a dirty player.... and once you can take off your homer glasses you may see that some day
You're either trolling or just delusional

the bolded is where u lose any credibility you had

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02-26-2013, 12:34 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
THIS is a dirty player:

Looks like I read a bunch of excuses...just like I read when A Hab or Canuck does something dirty...

Also remember ...there is "Matt Cooke Dirty", and then the normal NHL "Dirty"..

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02-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #114
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hook, line and sinker

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02-26-2013, 12:39 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by the overrated View Post
I say this as someone that doesn't currently have a dog in this fight: Artemis, every time you post a defense like that, you're kind of confirming what some other people are saying.

People say that B's fans overlook/excuse questionable plays by their own guys, and then you come in and say why the questionable play was acceptable or not as bad as the bad plays by the guys on other teams. It's literally doing what the person you're arguing with is claiming that people do - justifying questionable hits by their own favorites.

And IMHO, just posting a dirtier player isn't a valid argument about the cleanliness of another player. Could Jannik Hansen supporters say that he's not dirty by posting the Cooke "hit list" video?
You're missing half the argument.

The OP is saying he wants players like Cooke and Torres, that Lucic and Marchand are similar players.

If you like, I could substitute Scott Hartnell for Lucic and come up with a similar list as to why Cooke and Torres are dirty players who I can't stand, no matter WHAT uniform they do or don't wear. Hartnell pulls some dirty crap (like Lucic) and sometimes crosses the line (like Lucic) and he pisses me off when the Bruins play the Flyers. But I don't think he's a POS, or a horribly dirty player.

Get the difference?

PS: And if Scott Hartnell punched Alex Burrows in the head for slashing Ilya Bryzgalov, I'd stand up and cheer.

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02-26-2013, 12:50 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
You're missing half the argument.

The OP is saying he wants players like Cooke and Torres, that Lucic and Marchand are similar players.

If you like, I could substitute Scott Hartnell for Lucic and come up with a similar list as to why Cooke and Torres are dirty players who I can't stand, no matter WHAT uniform they do or don't wear. Hartnell pulls some dirty crap (like Lucic) and sometimes crosses the line (like Lucic) and he pisses me off when the Bruins play the Flyers. But I don't think he's a POS, or a horribly dirty player.

Get the difference?

PS: And if Scott Hartnell punched Alex Burrows in the head for slashing Ilya Bryzgalov, I'd stand up and cheer.
So the op saying he wants players who play with an edge is the problem for you (or more likely the examples he used, right?)? Are you really arguing semantics about calling Lucic and Marchand edgy players because they're not as edgy as Torres? Seems like an odd thing to split hairs over, but to each their own...

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02-26-2013, 12:53 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by zylos45 View Post
sucker punch to Meyer
high stick to (Laps) face with intent
Boarded Rinaldo
What he did to Burrows behind the net and then jamming his finger in his face during the cup in 2011....he pretty much tried to take his head off
How he gave Nash a concussion
Running Miller

all of that says otherwise. lucic is a dirty player.... and once you can take off your homer glasses you may see that some day
What is your definition of dirty? And if he's so dirty, how many combined games did those players miss due to the apparent offenses?

Discounting Nash (an absurd claim that immediately weakens your argument and makes it look like you have an axe to grind or are just being contrarian for the sake of it), I know Miller missed a few games, but pretty sure none of the others did. If Lucic really was dirty, more than one of those guys would have been on the shelf for a while.

It really comes down to one's definition of dirty. In your world, Cam would have to be called a dirty player too.

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02-26-2013, 12:56 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
You're missing half the argument.

The OP is saying he wants players like Cooke and Torres, that Lucic and Marchand are similar players.

If you like, I could substitute Scott Hartnell for Lucic and come up with a similar list as to why Cooke and Torres are dirty players who I can't stand, no matter WHAT uniform they do or don't wear. Hartnell pulls some dirty crap (like Lucic) and sometimes crosses the line (like Lucic) and he pisses me off when the Bruins play the Flyers. But I don't think he's a POS, or a horribly dirty player.

Get the difference?

PS: And if Scott Hartnell punched Alex Burrows in the head for slashing Ilya Bryzgalov, I'd stand up and cheer.
I don't think I am missing the other half of the argument - in this case, I don't necessarily disagree with you (e.g. I don't agree with the "just because the B's already employ Marchand or Lucic, they're already employing dirty guys so a Torres or Cooke would be acceptable" argument) ... but it's a trend lately to discuss how clean/dirty B's players are.

It was discussed at length in the "Little Ball of Talent" thread, and also in the thread about the Cooke/Karlsson incident, for two recent examples.

And any time that it was suggested that fans use blinders for their own teams bad plays, some people kept coming back to a "the dirty/questionable plays by OUR guys aren't bad, it's THEIR guys that are dirty!" defense. And I have to say with honestly no disrespect meant, you're one of the ones that most passionately defend a guy in black & gold. Even just in this thread above, it was "retaliation", or "being young", or the guy "deserved it", or when it's one that you don't want to defend, it's a simple "cry me a river" ... does that mean that every player that's not Cooke or Torres can have their misdeeds excused or overlooked, too?

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02-26-2013, 01:00 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
So the op saying he wants players who play with an edge is the problem for you (or more likely the examples he used, right?)? Are you really arguing semantics about calling Lucic and Marchand edgy players because they're not as edgy as Torres? Seems like an odd thing to split hairs over, but to each their own...
Wait, you're calling Raffi Torres edgy?

Semantics? Seriously? The difference between head-hunting psychos like Torres and physical players like Lucic is "semantics"?

My God, I think I'm going to have to take a break from this board. This is ridiculous.

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02-26-2013, 01:06 PM
  #120
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Wait, you're calling Raffi Torres edgy?

Semantics? Seriously? The difference between head-hunting psychos like Torres and physical players like Lucic is "semantics"?

My God, I think I'm going to have to take a break from this board. This is ridiculous.
You are delusional to think that Marchand and Lucic aren't dirty players. They may not be as bad as some of the dirtiest guys like Torres or Cooke, but they are certainly far from clean. Protesting so much makes you come off as a person watching these games through black and gold colored glasses.

Take a break or stay, it's really up to you.

The main point that cheap shots by one player aren't cheap just because you root for his team is what I find to be ridiculous.

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02-26-2013, 01:10 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by the overrated View Post
I don't think I am missing the other half of the argument - in this case, I don't necessarily disagree with you (e.g. I don't agree with the "just because the B's already employ Marchand or Lucic, they're already employing dirty guys so a Torres or Cooke would be acceptable" argument) ... but it's a trend lately to discuss how clean/dirty B's players are.

It was discussed at length in the "Little Ball of Talent" thread, and also in the thread about the Cooke/Karlsson incident, for two recent examples.

And any time that it was suggested that fans use blinders for their own teams bad plays, some people kept coming back to a "the dirty/questionable plays by OUR guys aren't bad, it's THEIR guys that are dirty!" defense. And I have to say with honestly no disrespect meant, you're one of the ones that most passionately defend a guy in black & gold. Even just in this thread above, it was "retaliation", or "being young", or the guy "deserved it", or when it's one that you don't want to defend, it's a simple "cry me a river" ... does that mean that every player that's not Cooke or Torres can have their misdeeds excused or overlooked, too?
When Paille was suspended four games for a head shot, I had no problem with it (it may have been a bit long for a first offense, but no big deal). As Ference said, head shots have no place in the game, and you don't defend someone just because they're on your team. Many here blasted Ference for that outlook. I thought he was spot on.

Every player in the NHL can have his moments of stupidity, as Jones did when he hit Bergeron. I never thought Jones did that in a predatory way; it was just a dumb play that had terrible consequences. According to your post, I should have blasted him to kingdom come and hate him forever because he was a Flyer who hit a Bruin, right?

Some "dirty" plays are in retaliation, and I have no problem with that, no matter what uniform the guy is wearing. Black and gold, or blue and white, whatever. As I said, if Lucic is protecting his goalie from a slash, good for him. If Hartnell did the same thing, good for HIM.

I'll defend a player in black and gold because those are the guys most often discussed on this board. If Nash had laid that hit on Lucic, and Lucic was concussed, I wouldn't be blaming Nash. Guys get concussed on clean hits too.

I'm pissed off because I can't stand scumbuckets Cooke and Torres, and if they wore black and gold, I'd have a lot of trouble being a Bruins fan. If you don't believe that, fair enough. As I said, I think I need a break from the insanity here. It's getting depressing.

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02-26-2013, 01:11 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
You are delusional to think that Marchand and Lucic aren't dirty players. They may not be as bad as some of the dirtiest guys like Torres or Cooke, but they are certainly far from clean. Protesting so much makes you come off as a person watching these games through black and gold colored glasses.

Take a break or stay, it's really up to you.

The main point that cheap shots by one player aren't cheap just because you root for his team is what I find to be ridiculous.
Lucic and Marchand have crossed the line more than a few times... I actually take pride in that as a Bruins fan. Their edge, and their wavering on the fine line are what makes them the game changing forwards they are...

Watch what they do to other players...they make them nervous..make them cough the puck up...make them to retalliation penalties..If they didn't have moments where they didn't have a screw loose (Miller, Lappy, Burrows, Salo, etc..) they wouldn't have near the effect...You never mind playing against tough players...it's the ones that go nuts every now and then that scare the **** out of you.

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02-26-2013, 01:14 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
You are delusional to think that Marchand and Lucic aren't dirty players. They may not be as bad as some of the dirtiest guys like Torres or Cooke, but they are certainly far from clean. Protesting so much makes you come off as a person watching these games through black and gold colored glasses.

Take a break or stay, it's really up to you.

The main point that cheap shots by one player aren't cheap just because you root for his team is what I find to be ridiculous.
And I never ****ing said that. I DID say (repeatedly) that sometimes Lucic loses his temper and does dumb things.

But hey, if you think the hit Lucic gave Nash is a dirty hit, fine. He's a dirty player omg how can anyone root for such a scum! Black and gold glasses!

I'm out. Have fun with the quality posters.

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02-26-2013, 01:15 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
You are delusional to think that Marchand and Lucic aren't dirty players. They may not be as bad as some of the dirtiest guys like Torres or Cooke, but they are certainly far from clean. Protesting so much makes you come off as a person watching these games through black and gold colored glasses.

Take a break or stay, it's really up to you.

The main point that cheap shots by one player aren't cheap just because you root for his team is what I find to be ridiculous.
I think that's it in a nutshell, or at least the point I was trying to make yesterday.

With the possible exception of Jean Ratelle, every player is or was dirty, it's just a matter of degrees.

Marchand is an agitating pain in the arse, and is sometimes dirty. If he wore different colors we would HATE him!

But to put him in the same category as Cooke and Torres is not accurate, IMO.

I agree with him that Marchand and Lucic can cross the the line, and have. What I disagree with is that the Bruins need a Cooke/Torres type of player.

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02-26-2013, 01:16 PM
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