Ennis -vs- Hodgson (moved from Foligno -vs- Kassian thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganja
Hey, are Buffalo fans satisfied with Hodgson for Kassian?
I recently heard it was a mistake for the Sabres from a Winnipeg press memeber but every time I look at the score sheet Cody is on it. Admittedly don't watch any of their games so just wondering what the fans' take is on his play.
Tyler Ennis has now caught up to Hodgson in points and doesn't get to play juicy minutes all game with Vanek and Pominville.
Ennis has proven more than Hodgson as hes had to scrap for his points with weaker linemates.
joshjull EDIT: I moved these posts from the Foligno/Kassian thread to attempt to keep that one on topic. I hope Wizeman doesn't mind that I'm using an edited version of his post to kick things off.
Tyler Ennis has now caught up to Hodgson in points and doesn't get to play juicy minutes all game with Vanek and Pominville.
Ennis has proven more than Hodgson as hes had to scrap for his points with weaker linemates.
This comparison of Kassian and Foligno is a joke. Mike Gillis is going to want a 4th round pick Foligno over Kassian who has all the tools to become Bertuzzi ???
However, the Kassian / Hodgson trade is different. Cody is ahead in development but Kassian is a year younger and will catch up soon. It was one of those trades where both teams win. Its rare but it happens.
Hodgson is much better than Ennis, but I am sure you are just as boxscore watcher. Hodgson is almost a PPG center at even strength, no PP points yet. Ennis gets alot of his points on the PP. Hodgson is imo our 2nd best foward behind Vanek this year.
Since the draft Foligno has improved much more than Kassian has, and has been a better point producer throughout his professional career. I still think that Kassian has more offensive upside.
But, we all know you have an agenda against Hodgson since you have posted numerous times that he is a small, soft, and slow center, when the reality is he is pretty decent size and does not back off in physical games and has iimproved his skating alot, I would say he is quicker than most of our fowards now.
Its also funny how you come into a Sabres thread to tell us that Ennis is better.
Last edited by Darcy Regier: 02-23-2013 at 10:28 AM.
Hodgson is much better than Ennis, but I am sure you are just as boxscore watcher. Hodgson is almost a PPG center at even strength, no PP points yet. Ennis gets alot of his points on the PP. Hodgson is imo our 2nd best foward behind Vanek this year.
Since the draft Foligno has improved much more than Kassian has, and has been a better point producer throughout his professional career. I still think that Kassian has more offensive upside.
But, we all know you have an agenda against Hodgson since you have posted numerous times that he is a small, soft, and slow center, when the reality is he is pretty decent size and does not back off in physical games and has iimproved his skating alot, I would say he is quicker than most of our fowards now.
Its also funny how you come into a Sabres thread to tell us that Ennis is better.
I think Hodgson has been great offensively but you+ others don't seem to see grasp how bad he is defensively. It was posted in another thread he is 2nd to only Marty Reasoner in 5 on 5 goals against per 60mins of play.
I also think many undersell the play of Ennis. He has produced without the benefit of the linemates Hodgson has. I think you're being a tad naive if you Hodgson's linemates don't have a huge impact on his production.
That said I think, warts and all, they are a very nice 1-2 punch offnsively up the middle. Two young centers learning the ropes as top 6 NHL centers. If we can just add a strong defensive center to compliment them our center situation would be a good shape.
I think Hodgson has been great offensively but you others don't seem to see grasp how bad he is defensively. It was posted in another thread he is 2nd to only Marty Reasoner in 5 on 5 goals against per 60mins of play.
I also think many undersell the play of Ennis. He has produced without the benefit of the linemates Hodgson has. I think you're being a tad naive if you Hodgson's linemates don't have a huge impact on his production.
That said I think, warts and all, they are a very nice 1-2 punch offnsively up the middle. Two young centers learning the ropes as top 6 NHL centers. If we can just add a strong defensive center to compliment them our center situation would be a good shape.
I am not worried about a 22 year old defensive game in his first year as a teams #1 center, He will learn as he gets older.
I think Hodgson has been great offensively but you others don't seem to see grasp how bad he is defensively. It was posted in another thread he is 2nd to only Marty Reasoner in 5 on 5 goals against per 60mins of play.
I also think many undersell the play of Ennis. He has produced without the benefit of the linemates Hodgson has. I think you're being a tad naive if you Hodgson's linemates don't have a huge impact on his production.
That said I think, warts and all, they are a very nice 1-2 punch offnsively up the middle. Two young centers learning the ropes as top 6 NHL centers. If we can just add a strong defensive center to compliment them our center situation would be a good shape.
I think everyone grasps how bad he's been. We watch the games. However we also realize he's primarily an offensive forward who is in his first stint on 1c duty who probably shouldn't be asked to shoulder top defensive responsibilities as well. But that's Darcy's fault for bringing in 3 offensive centers and Jochen Hecht.
I am not worried about a 22 year old defensive game in his first year as a teams #1 center, He will learn as he gets older.
It's funny how CoHo gets the benefit of the doubt about his defensive play, but Ennis doesn't. Not saying this is your take, but it's a common sentiment around here.
Foligno has to pick up his game, especially on the PP. He's beginning to remind me of Gaustad out there with a man up.
It's funny how CoHo gets the benefit of the doubt about his defensive play, but Ennis doesn't. Not saying this is your take, but it's a common sentiment around here.
Yeah, it probably doesn't have anything to do with the fact that one has been known for his defensive ability at previous levels of hockey while the other hasn't.
I am not worried about a 22 year old defensive game in his first year as a teams #1 center, He will learn as he gets older.
I was talking about Ennis -vs- Hodgson right now in light of your assertion that Hodgson is much better than Ennis, right now. From your earlier post -> Hodgson is much better than Ennis. That sure sounds like you mean now.
What Hodgson may or may not do defensively later in his career is irrelevant to the discussion of who is better right now.
Defensive play
Despite claims to the contrary, most on here don't grasp how bad he is defensively. His line is currently the worst line in the NHL in giving up goals per 60mins of play. They are ranked 3rd (Hodgson), 8th (Pommer) and 10th (Vanek) among forwards league wide in goals allowed per 60mins of play. Vanek/Pommer have never been close to this bad defensively as a line. So the logical conclusion is Hodgson a big factor in causing this line to struggle defensively.
Their respective offensive production
From your previous post --> Hodgson is almost a PPG center at even strength, no PP points yet. Ennis gets alot of his points on the PP. Hodgson is imo our 2nd best foward behind Vanek this year.
-Hodgson is almost a PPG center at even strength, no PP points yet.
Another way of putting this is he produces at ES when he is with Vanek/Pommer and doesn't produce on the PP when he doesn't play with them. And he isn't almost a PPG center any more. Like Adam last season he had a great run between those two to start the season. No I'm not comparing him to Adam as a player.
-Ennis gets alot of his points on the PP.
Not true. Ennis has 14pts this season and only 4 are on the PP. Hodgson has 15 ES points to Ennis' 10. Considering their respective linemates, the difference in ES points is nothing.
-Hodgson is imo our 2nd best foward behind Vanek this year.
Offensively you might have an argument. But Ennis is right there. I will say I doubt Hodgson would be able to produce offensively like Ennis has with Ennis' line mates.
Offensively you might have an argument. But Ennis is right there. I will say I doubt Hodgson would be able to produce offensively like Ennis has with Ennis' line mates.
Agreed.
I think I've come to terms with the fact that Cody Hodgson, overall, is not that good.
At least that's the case right now.
No way he has as many points playing with Foligno and Stafford.
I don't even see much skill from Hodgson honestly. He can bring the puck in with speed but his passing isn't anything special, he doesn't show any flair besides trying to do his one move where he tries to drag the puck past two defenders (which constantly fails) and he is a complete disaster in his own end. I don't see him ever being a top-line center in the NHL, and certainly isn't on Kassian's skill level.
While Hodgson/Ennis linemates are used to downplay Hodgson's offensive production. Let's also recognize that he is seeing the opponent's top defensive matchups, and Ennis is still sheltered in many ways.
I think I've come to terms with the fact that Cody Hodgson, overall, is not that good.
At least that's the case right now.
No way he has as many points playing with Foligno and Stafford.
I don't even see much skill from Hodgson honestly. He can bring the puck in with speed but his passing isn't anything special, he doesn't show any flair besides trying to do his one move where he tries to drag the puck past two defenders (which constantly fails) and he is a complete disaster in his own end. I don't see him ever being a top-line center in the NHL, and certainly isn't on Kassian's skill level.
I think you'll realize in the very near future you are wrong
I think I've come to terms with the fact that Cody Hodgson, overall, is not that good.
At least that's the case right now.
No way he has as many points playing with Foligno and Stafford.
I don't even see much skill from Hodgson honestly. He can bring the puck in with speed but his passing isn't anything special, he doesn't show any flair besides trying to do his one move where he tries to drag the puck past two defenders (which constantly fails) and he is a complete disaster in his own end. I don't see him ever being a top-line center in the NHL, and certainly isn't on Kassian's skill level.
I think I've come to terms with the fact that Cody Hodgson, overall, is not that good.
At least that's the case right now.
No way he has as many points playing with Foligno and Stafford.
I don't even see much skill from Hodgson honestly. He can bring the puck in with speed but his passing isn't anything special, he doesn't show any flair besides trying to do his one move where he tries to drag the puck past two defenders (which constantly fails) and he is a complete disaster in his own end. I don't see him ever being a top-line center in the NHL, and certainly isn't on Kassian's skill level.
Hodgson is talented and wickedly smart with hockey IQ. Watch the Maple leafs 1st period.
While Hodgson/Ennis linemates are used to downplay Hodgson's offensive production. Let's also recognize that he is seeing the opponent's top defensive matchups, and Ennis is still sheltered in many ways.
When I reference his line mates I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious. That Vanek/Pommer have produced at a high level against top defenders with Adam, Connolly, Hecht and now Hodgson as their center. So based on that I feel safe in asserting that they are influencing Hodgson's production far more than the other way around. Or to put it another way, Hodgson influence on that line is overrated on this board.
But here's the bad part. Vanek/Pommer as a line are FAR worse defensively than they've even been in the past and the only factor thats changed is their current center.
Btw facing top defenders more so than top offensive players puts that line's goals against as per 60mins played in an even worse light.
Both have a lot of room to grow in their own zone. Both need to make smarter decisions with the puck when attempting to exit the defensive end of the rink and both need to have more attention to detail regarding their positioning. I'll give Ennis the nod for using his speed at times to close with his check.
Youth needs to be seasoned -- this is them getting seasoning. Hopefully they are learning from their meriad mistakes.
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Both have a lot of room to grow in their own zone. Both need to make smarter decisions with the puck when attempting to exit the defensive end of the rink and both need to have more attention to detail regarding their positioning. I'll give Ennis the nod for using his speed at times to close with his check.
Youth needs to be seasoned -- this is them getting seasoning. Hopefully they are learning from their meriad mistakes.
I agree with this. What started this back and forth in another thread was the idea that Hodgson is a much better player right now. I think they are fairly equal and both are struggling to find their way as most youngsters do.
What is killing the team and slowing their development (as well as Foligno's) a bit is the current roster make up.
Lacking a two way top 6 center or at least a two way top 6 line is killing this team. Last year when we ended the season with....
We had a top 6 line in Leino/Roy/Pommer that did the heavy lifting defensively but could still produce offensively. It allowed the Hodgson and Ennis lines to be essentially 2/3 lines. Neither truly having the full burden of being a top 6 center.
Finding a way to reset the lines like that could go a long way in helping both Ennis and Hodgson in their development. Its a big reason why many drool over the prospect of adding ROR.
Tyler Ennis has now caught up to Hodgson in points and doesn't get to play juicy minutes all game with Vanek and Pominville.
Actually, Ennis plays more of the "juiciest" minutes--e.g., power play--with Vanek than Hodgson does. Hodgson's been playing on the PP2 of late, with these "weaker" linemates you're referencing. Does that get conveniently avoided?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman
Ennis has proven more than Hodgson as hes had to scrap for his points with weaker linemates.
So Ennis' point totals are impacted by Stafford's and Foligno's goal-scoring struggles, but he hasn't benefited at all from Stafford's career high A1/60 (primary assists/60 mins at 5-on-5) rate? The correct answer is that Ennis' ES assist totals are suffering--while his PP assist numbers are benefiting from Vanek's presence--while Ennis' ES goal numbers are benefiting--Ennis' goals/60 at 5-on-5 is a career high right now.
The argumentative contortionism that Ennis backers go through is incredible.
When I reference his line mates I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious. That Vanek/Pommer have produced at a high level against top defenders with Adam, Connolly, Hecht and now Hodgson as their center. So based on that I feel safe in asserting that they are influencing Hodgson's production far more than the other way around. Or to put it another way, Hodgson influence on that line is overrated on this board.
I think there is far more of an effort to downplay Hodgson's offensive impact by making general statements about his linemates and their prior performance.
It's pretty easy to go back and watch the 25 or so goals that line has scored... the tape doesn't lie. Hodgson's impact offensive is obvious on tape.
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But here's the bad part. Vanek/Pommer as a line are FAR worse defensively than they've even been in the past and the only factor thats changed is their current center.
Again, watch the tape... Hodgson has been horrendous in A LOT of those goals against scenarios... no doubt. But he's also on the ice for **** play from Pommer over the last few weeks. And Vanek... meh, he's never been anything to write home about defensively. He back checks hard sure... but once that zone is established he's a floater.
I'm not here to defend a 22 yr olds ****** defensive play. But your attempt to attribute the shockingly bad numbers entirely to Hodgson is a bit disingenuous.
Quote:
Btw facing top defenders more so than top offensive players puts that line's goals against as per 60mins played in an even worse light.
I bet that's what you thought... here are the facts
Chara-Seidenberg most common forward linemates :
Krejci, Horton, Lucic
Phaneuf-Kostka most common forward linemates :
Grabovski, Kessel, JVR, Kulemin
I agree with this. What started this back and forth in another thread was the idea that Hodgson is a much better player right now. I think they are fairly equal and both are struggling to find their way as most youngsters do.
What is killing the team and slowing their development (as well as Foligno's) a bit is the current roster make up.
Lacking a two way top 6 center or at least a two way top 6 line is killing this team. Last year when we ended the season with....
We had a top 6 line in Leino/Roy/Pommer that did the heavy lifting defensively and allowed the Hodgson and Ennis lines to be essentially 2/3 lines. Neither truly having the full burden of being a top center.
Finding a way to reset the lines like that could go a long way in helping both Ennis and Hodgson in their development.
Agree with the bolded. Hence your premise in your "Do we understimate the loss of Leino?" thread. Similarly, the lack of a defensive line/center to match the opponent's top line has impacted Grigorenko's time / minutes / role.
I agree with this. What started this back and forth in another thread was the idea that Hodgson is a much better player right now. I think they are fairly equal and both are struggling to find their way as most youngsters do.
What is killing the team and slowing their development (as well as Foligno's) a bit is the current roster make up.
Lacking a two way top 6 center or at least a two way top 6 line is killing this team. Last year when we ended the season with....
We had a top 6 line in Leino/Roy/Pommer that did the heavy lifting defensively but could still produce offensively. It allowed the Hodgson and Ennis lines to be essentially 2/3 lines. Neither truly having the full burden of being a top 6 center.
Finding a way to reset the lines like that could go a long way in helping both Ennis and Hodgson in their development. Its a big reason why many drool over the prospect of adding ROR.
well put.
I guess it's about time this topic got it's own thread.
