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Old
03-08-2013, 12:58 AM
  #376
murdock1116
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Originally Posted by The Great 88 View Post
Burns' injury history prior to the San Jose trade is completely unrelated to every injury he has had in San Jose.

I think that if he just doesn't play another game this season, he will be fine long term.
Injury prone is injury prone is injury prone. (Not to say Burns is that...yet...)

I know that's not fair but some people are just that "unlucky" when it comes to getting injured. Look at Havlat, everyone was saying, "He's actually been pretty healthy...those were 'freak' accidents..." etc. But at the end of the day, the guy just gets injured. Maybe its the way in which he plays lending himself open to "freak" accidents, maybe he just doesn't drink enough milk, who knows, but he is often injured.

I HOPE this injury is just bad luck, but we'll see.

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Old
03-08-2013, 01:05 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
... yet he manages to get shut down in so many different ways?

From a trade standpoint I do the Havlat for Heatley trade every time. I'm not arguing that. Still, Havlat has been a major disappointment. The eye test does NOT show me the speed I was expecting, it does not show the shot I was hoping he would have, it does not show the ability to forecheck or hit, it does not give me that much confidence in his compete factor.

The guy just doesn't gel well with the team it seems. He's been a major disappointment to me.
Havlat is cold, it is an internal issue. That is why he isn't producing...but when he is playing to expectations, he is hard to shutdown. The same is not true for other players...

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Old
03-08-2013, 01:14 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Havlat is cold, it is an internal issue. That is why he isn't producing...but when he is playing to expectations, he is hard to shutdown. The same is not true for other players...
Too bad he plays to expectations once every 500 games.

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Old
03-08-2013, 01:40 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
Too bad he plays to expectations once every 500 games.
I guess the entire rest of his career never happened?

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Old
03-08-2013, 01:51 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Yes, and all those apply to Clowe as well, except for the fact that he has no goals unlike Heatley. So no, Heatley is not as useless or "good" as Clowe.
Heatley has always been on of the best garbage goal players in the NHL. Declining speed won't reduce his effectiveness at standing near the net to punch in rebound and get tip ins. It's the main difference between him and Clowe. Clowe is the big joe knock off... plays a similar game but still not as good.

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03-08-2013, 01:52 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by thejuxtaposer View Post
every single heatley goal is a product of parise and koivu. Stop talking **** and watch the wild before you whine about wanting heatley back. He blows. He can't skate. He constantly turns the puck over. He doesn't have the fitness to be a 3-zone player. His shot's declining. Literally, he's not a top-6 player anymore. Stop *****ing about the heatley trade. I was as big a heatley fan as there was on here, but we killed minnesota in that trade.


this.

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Old
03-08-2013, 01:54 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
Do you watch Havlat play?

Can't shoot for ****.
Havlat and Marleau probably have the 2 best wrist shots on the team... Sorry but you lose credibility when you claim stuff like this... Not taking a shot and not having a shot are 2 completely different things. As evidenced by 2 other players on the team...

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Old
03-08-2013, 01:56 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
What?

He still can score 25 goals a year and add 50 pts. Is his cap hit bad? Yeah, but so is Burish Handzus Clowe and Vlasic so cap space isn't the issue some think.

Setoguchi had similar numbers last year that he did while in SJ.

Havlat should play Sarcastaball.

Burns is good but his injuries are taking a toll

The two prospects really hurt since we're going no where and need young talent but Whatever Doug thinks he's Ken Holland so what are you going to do.
I'm sorry? Vlasic's cap hit is bad? Compare him to Mike Green, James Wisniewski, Matt Carle, Paul Martin, Komisarek, Kaberle... He's on a sweet long-term deal for a #2/3 d-man.

To chime in on Havlat, he played well the first handful of games, and in some of them he was flat out fantastic. I suspect he got hurt a few weeks ago and has been trying to play through it. Hasn't worked out. I'm glad he's taking the time to get healthy, and I expect him to continue his solid play when he returns.

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Old
03-08-2013, 02:00 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
... yet he manages to get shut down in so many different ways?

From a trade standpoint I do the Havlat for Heatley trade every time. I'm not arguing that. Still, Havlat has been a major disappointment. The eye test does NOT show me the speed I was expecting, it does not show the shot I was hoping he would have, it does not show the ability to forecheck or hit, it does not give me that much confidence in his compete factor.

The guy just doesn't gel well with the team it seems. He's been a major disappointment to me.
Havlat was never great on the forecheck. I don't think he was an F1 except early in his career. He's always the guy anticipating that first pass into the neutral zone and intercepting. Transition game has always been his strong suit but the sharks don't play a very good transition game because the suck at getting out of their zone with speed. It's crazy because the first 2 years of Mclellan they were pretty good at it. Now they suck... The defensmen are better IMO now than back then so the issues are baffling...

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03-08-2013, 02:01 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
I'm sorry? Vlasic's cap hit is bad? Compare him to Mike Green, James Wisniewski, Matt Carle, Paul Martin, Komisarek, Kaberle... He's on a sweet long-term deal for a #2/3 d-man.

To chime in on Havlat, he played well the first handful of games, and in some of them he was flat out fantastic. I suspect he got hurt a few weeks ago and has been trying to play through it. Hasn't worked out. I'm glad he's taking the time to get healthy, and I expect him to continue his solid play when he returns.
Yes, I thought he was great the first couple weeks as well. Not sure what the injury is but I really hope it doesn't linger the rest of the season.

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Old
03-08-2013, 03:26 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Havlat and Marleau probably have the 2 best wrist shots on the team... Sorry but you lose credibility when you claim stuff like this... Not taking a shot and not having a shot are 2 completely different things. As evidenced by 2 other players on the team...
I'd put it in this order for best wrist shot...
Marleau
Pavelski
Couture
Havlat
Thornton
Clowe

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Old
03-08-2013, 03:32 AM
  #387
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We desperately need to pick up another shoot first forward. Make it a long term transaction, whatever the cost is fixes a huge hole. Hopefully the other whole the deal makes isn't too big. We can flip Murray for a second, then pick up a young speedy forward for Demers or Braun. I would hate to see either of them go, but look at a trade like the Goligoski for Neal. If we can pull something like that off, get a shoot first young forward, we would be muuuuuuuuuuuuuch better off. Scoring depth is what we lack. We are too top heavy to win.

Marleau-Thornton-Shoot-first forward
Clowe-Couture-Pavelski
Wingles/Kennedy/Sheppard/Galiardi-Gomez-Havlat

if Gomez can pick his game up great. Otherwise slot Handzus in as center.

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Old
03-08-2013, 04:33 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by sweHockeypunk21 View Post
I'd put it in this order for best wrist shot...
Marleau
Pavelski
Couture
Havlat
Thornton
Clowe
And you would be wrong.

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Old
03-08-2013, 04:35 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by sweHockeypunk21 View Post
We desperately need to pick up another shoot first forward. Make it a long term transaction, whatever the cost is fixes a huge hole. Hopefully the other whole the deal makes isn't too big. We can flip Murray for a second, then pick up a young speedy forward for Demers or Braun. I would hate to see either of them go, but look at a trade like the Goligoski for Neal. If we can pull something like that off, get a shoot first young forward, we would be muuuuuuuuuuuuuch better off. Scoring depth is what we lack. We are too top heavy to win.

Marleau-Thornton-Shoot-first forward
Clowe-Couture-Pavelski
Wingles/Kennedy/Sheppard/Galiardi-Gomez-Havlat

if Gomez can pick his game up great. Otherwise slot Handzus in as center.
You'll be lucky to get a 3rd for Murray. He's a 6th or 7th d man at this point. No one gives up a second for that even at the deadline.

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Old
03-08-2013, 05:08 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
And you would be wrong.
Yup, no way pavelski has a better wrister than logan, and I might buy that logan's is better than patty's too.

burns has a great wrister, boyle is no slouch.

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Old
03-08-2013, 06:13 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Yup, no way pavelski has a better wrister than logan


While obviously shootout and 5 on 5 are different things, and getting a wrister off in tight space is a very good ability, one can't straight up say JOE PAVELSKI'S WRISTER IS 84 AND LOGAN COUTURE'S WRISTER IS 89 THEREFORE COUTURE IS BETTER.

They both shoot the puck well, that is why they are A) in the NHL B) top6 forwards in the NHL C) 30 goal scorers.

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Old
03-08-2013, 07:58 AM
  #392
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Originally Posted by vilpertti View Post
While obviously shootout and 5 on 5 are different things, and getting a wrister off in tight space is a very good ability, one can't straight up say JOE PAVELSKI'S WRISTER IS 84 AND LOGAN COUTURE'S WRISTER IS 89 THEREFORE COUTURE IS BETTER.

They both shoot the puck well, that is why they are A) in the NHL B) top6 forwards in the NHL C) 30 goal scorers.
I'm going to ignore the video game reference out of courtesy, and say that Pavelski does not have a particularly great shot. He can get it off, he is very smart to get the chances (he generates a ton of chances with his smarts), but in the end, Logan is MUCH more convincing a goalscorer when you watch him play than Pavs is.

Logan is a 30 goalscorer of his own accord, he hit 30 goals in his 1st full year in the league. Pavs is only a 30 goal scorer being fed by Thornton after 5 years in the league. Logan has a higher sh% as well, he is just a more naturally talented goalscorer. There's a reason he went directly to the 2nd line and Pavs didn't.

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Old
03-08-2013, 08:04 AM
  #393
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Pavelski does have a good shot but I don't think he has the same quick release that Marleau or Couture has. That's the main difference between them imo.

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:31 AM
  #394
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I was actually toying around with the idea of bringing Ian White (not Colin!) back assuming Burns is not going to get Healthy. Detroit basically wants to get rid of him, we could probably get him for Murray or a late pick at this point and he'd very likely re-sign here if we asked. Would also free us up to trade Braun for a forward. I know it seems counter to pickup a defensemen, but White was a great puck mover for us on the 2nd pairing.

leave us with, when healthy:

Stuart - Boyle
White - Burns
Vlasic - Demers
Irwin

It's a tough call which of those would be our top pairing. Everyone has a solid partner. Plus we can then Trade Braun + Clowe for a solid forward like Okposo.

Couture - Thornton - Okposo
Marleau - Pavelski - Havlat
Galiardi - Sheppard - Wingels
Handzus - Gomez - Burish
Desjardins, Kennedy

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Old
03-08-2013, 10:36 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I was actually toying around with the idea of bringing Ian White (not Colin!) back assuming Burns is not going to get Healthy. Detroit basically wants to get rid of him, we could probably get him for Murray or a late pick at this point and he'd very likely re-sign here if we asked. Would also free us up to trade Braun for a forward. I know it seems counter to pickup a defensemen, but White was a great puck mover for us on the 2nd pairing.

leave us with, when healthy:

Stuart - Boyle
White - Burns
Vlasic - Demers
Irwin

It's a tough call which of those would be our top pairing. Everyone has a solid partner. Plus we can then Trade Braun + Clowe for a solid forward like Okposo.

Couture - Thornton - Okposo
Marleau - Pavelski - Havlat
Galiardi - Sheppard - Wingels
Handzus - Gomez - Burish
Desjardins, Kennedy
I wouldn't do that. White is okay but comes with some major issues - his size was telling on the PK. He is an older player, and if we are looking to rebuild I'd rather have Braun. He's also a RD, and we are jam packed with RD at the moment. I'd rather trade Murray for a pick (someone mentioned that we'd never get a 2nd for him at the deadline, and while I agree, we did trade a 2nd for MMMMburgers? ).

Then, I'd propose trading Braun/Demers for a forward UNLESS we plan on trading Boyle this offseason - which I really think wouldn't be a bad idea at this point if we finally accept that we are rebuilding. If management pulls a flames, then we should sell high on Demers or Braun, as they'll only get 3rd pairing min and thus not have great value in the future with Burns/Boyle.

If we hang on to Boyle:

Pickles - Burns
Stuart - Boyle
Irwin - Demers/Braun

Trade Boyle:

Pickles - Burns
Stuart -Demers/Braun
Irwin - Demers/Braun

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Old
03-08-2013, 10:41 AM
  #396
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We can't do a Goligoski/Neal type deal with Braun or Demers yet because neither's put up enough points to be worth that much. And as long as Burns and Boyle are here, they probably never will.

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Old
03-08-2013, 11:05 AM
  #397
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Yup, no way pavelski has a better wrister than logan, and I might buy that logan's is better than patty's too.

burns has a great wrister, boyle is no slouch.
I agree. I disagree when you say Pavelski doesn't have a great shot. Pavelski's wrister is great, but I think Couture's is just better.

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Old
03-08-2013, 11:11 AM
  #398
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I agree. I disagree when you say Pavelski doesn't have a great shot. Pavelski's wrister is great, but I think Couture's is just better.
They are both better at certain things. Pavelski's is more accurate, but Couture's us much quicker. During the flow of the game I'd say Couture's is better, but Pavelski's is better in open areas.

Also, doesn't Handzus deserve to at least be mentioned. He's definitely not the same caliber player as any of the mentioned, but there's a reason he's deadly in shootouts, and it's not his great puckhandling.

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Old
03-08-2013, 11:15 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
Pavelski does have a good shot but I don't think he has the same quick release that Marleau or Couture has. That's the main difference between them imo.
This. Also pavs is incredibly accurate which increases his ability to score goals especially in the shootout.

Havlat has the power and release in his wrist shot that is probably top 10% in the NHL very similar to marleau. If those 2 plus couture dominated the shot count for the sharks they wouldn't have nearly the dire scoring problems they do IMO.

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Old
03-08-2013, 11:16 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
They are both better at certain things. Pavelski's is more accurate, but Couture's us much quicker. During the flow of the game I'd say Couture's is better, but Pavelski's is better in open areas.

Also, doesn't Handzus deserve to at least be mentioned. He's definitely not the same caliber player as any of the mentioned, but there's a reason he's deadly in shootouts, and it's not his great puckhandling.
Handzus has a great wrister too. It's just that he's too slow to ever use it.

I'd say Couture's shot is just as accurate as Pavelski's.

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