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Old
03-01-2013, 03:51 PM
  #176
Eighth Fret
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
If we trade Joe, we are not contenders. It's as simple as that.
I don't think we're contenders with him. If he wants a legitimate shot at the Cup, he has to go elsewhere. By legitimate I mean beyond the idea that all you have to do is make the playoffs, at which point anything can happen. In terms of playing style, chance to win a Cup, and possible return -- I'd love to see a deal worked out with the Rangers. They have great young pieces to offer in return, are out of conference (though I agree with you that if we're rebuilding it doesn't really matter where he goes) and the prospect of possibly winning a Cup with his BFF might be enough to get him to waive his NMC.

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03-01-2013, 03:58 PM
  #177
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hehe... no not exactly. I mean, culture wise, I don't see him causing a problem. Yes he's passive, and as such he's not likely to make a fuss or rock the boat during a major internal change.
I dunno though I feel like that'd set a bad example for the youngsters. "Hey if you're a supremely talented son of the gods with the ability to raise the abilities and spirits of all who are around you, who won't allow himself to get pushed around you might get shipped out. But if you're just speedy gonzalez with a great shot but your basically a doormat for others you're staying as long as you'd like".


Just sayin. Might wanna think about it


Seriously though, I think we shouldnt get rid of either of them. Boyle should be the first to go for youth once Burns is back. The pieces we get for Boyle, and replacing Handzus, Clowe and Murray with speedy people should be enough.

Havlat-Thornton-Couture
Marleau-Couture- Boyle trade piece?
Galiardi-Sheppard-Wingels
Hertl? -Desjardins-Burish

Vlasic-Burns
Demers-Stuart
Irwin-Braun

Niemi

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:03 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
I dunno though I feel like that'd set a bad example for the youngsters. "Hey if you're a supremely talented son of the gods with the ability to raise the abilities and spirits of all who are around you, who won't allow himself to get pushed around you might get shipped out. But if you're just speedy gonzalez with a great shot but your basically a doormat for others you're staying as long as you'd like".


Just sayin. Might wanna think about it


Seriously though, I think we shouldnt get rid of either of them. Boyle should be the first to go for youth once Burns is back. The pieces we get for Boyle, and replacing Handzus, Clowe and Murray with speedy people should be enough.

Havlat-Thornton-Couture
Marleau-Couture- Boyle trade piece?
Galiardi-Sheppard-Wingels
Hertl? -Desjardins-Burish

Vlasic-Burns
Demers-Stuart
Irwin-Braun

Niemi
That only makes sense if you think Thornton is not a big part of the culture problem. I'm starting to think he is.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:08 PM
  #179
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I don't think Thornton is part of the culture problem, but he is unfortunately part of the overall problem. He's our best player and for better or worse, what the coaching staff will build strategy around. When that strategy is no longer what works in the league, then you have a problem. Not necessarily his fault, but a problem nonetheless.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:12 PM
  #180
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That only makes sense if you think Thornton is not a big part of the culture problem. I'm starting to think he is.
I don't think he is. You're making a ton of assumptions.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:13 PM
  #181
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I want Hagelin. If anything, just to have someone beautiful to look at when we lose.

I WANT HAGELIN.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:14 PM
  #182
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I don't think he is. You're making a ton of assumptions.
Where did I make any assumptions? Said pretty clearly 'if'.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:18 PM
  #183
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I want Hagelin. If anything, just to have someone beautiful to look at when we lose.

I WANT HAGELIN.
Then I want Landeskog.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:20 PM
  #184
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There has to be a reason why Doug Wilson hasn't made a move yet.

This team is just not simply good enough to make it past the first round... or even make the playoffs.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:27 PM
  #185
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Do you guys think that Clowe + Murray could get us a 1st from any team. I am just curious if that would be fair value or not.

or what about something around Clowe + Braun? Is that worth a first?

I am thinking somewhere in the 20-30 pick range.
Im pretty sure Clowe blew up his trade value with his childish play over the past two years. Poke check from the bench, putting the team in bad spots because he cant control his temper or at least manage it properly and utilize at the right moment. Poor play, stone hands and jello legs. A first is not going to happen unless like you mentioned, bundle him up.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:31 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by couturefan39 View Post
There has to be a reason why Doug Wilson hasn't made a move yet.

This team is just not simply good enough to make it past the first round... or even make the playoffs.
Something has to give. If Tmac is still behind the bench next game then DW needs to go with him.

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Old
03-01-2013, 06:09 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Do you guys think that Clowe + Murray could get us a 1st from any team. I am just curious if that would be fair value or not.

or what about something around Clowe + Braun? Is that worth a first?

I am thinking somewhere in the 20-30 pick range.
I'm confident we could get a 1st for Clowe alone. There aren't many players like Clowe and they're rarely available like this.

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Old
03-01-2013, 06:41 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
I don't think he is. You're making a ton of assumptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
It should go without saying, but some of ya'll are making a ton of assumptions in regards to Thornton's attitude, Tmac, and the locker room...

Thornton has shown to be very malleable in the pass. I'm guessing that no one has instructed him to change his game, because he isn't the problem (not even close, one outlier game aside).
Joe at approx. a point per game, Patty, Pav's and Couture not far behind...... Zero scoring depth, a fourth line whom can barely throw a solid hit if any at all (other then Desi when playing): That is our issue, agree with you both/it's not big Joe. We get any scoring and some solid hockey from other sources, these discussion's aren't even happening. In some interviews from Burns and Couture alone, haven't they referred to Joe as the prankster of the locker room? And Couture mentioning Joe and Patty as awesome mentors since he's arrived? Seems pretty tight via discussions alone.

Duchesne / O'Reilly, now that will be an issue.

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Old
03-01-2013, 06:52 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Joe at approx. a point per game, Patty, Pav's and Couture not far behind...... Zero scoring depth, a fourth line whom can barely throw a solid hit if any at all (other then Desi when playing): That is our issue, agree with you both/it's not big Joe. We get any scoring and some solid hockey from other sources, these discussion's aren't even happening. In some interviews from Burns and Couture alone, haven't they referred to Joe as the prankster of the locker room? And Couture mentioning Joe and Patty as awesome mentors since he's arrived? Seems pretty tight via discussions alone.

Duchesne / O'Reilly, now that will be an issue.
Ruh roh here come the haters saying he doesn't take winning as seriously as Marleau and is a problem.

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Old
03-01-2013, 07:07 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
It should go without saying, but some of ya'll are making a ton of assumptions in regards to Thornton's attitude, Tmac, and the locker room...

Thornton has shown to be very malleable in the past. I'm guessing that no one has instructed him to change his game, because he isn't the problem (not even close, one outlier game aside).
I agree. I was thinking the 2nd part as well.

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Old
03-01-2013, 07:12 PM
  #191
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Ruh roh here come the haters saying he doesn't take winning as seriously as Marleau and is a problem.
I know. But, very recently, Burnsy did say it live during intermission interviews before he came back, more than once. So, the likes of you and I are safe on this one

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:08 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
It should go without saying, but some of ya'll are making a ton of assumptions in regards to Thornton's attitude, Tmac, and the locker room...

Thornton has shown to be very malleable in the past. I'm guessing that no one has instructed him to change his game, because he isn't the problem (not even close, one outlier game aside).
I think some of it is a fair assumption to make. The coach has been saying for everyone to shoot more. Thornton has outright refused to do so and he is the captain. As a leader, he should be the one doing it more than anyone and he's not.

Whether you agree with Thornton or not about being the passer, his job as the captain is to reinforce the message his coaches send to the players. If not, he is being detrimental to the team...as are the coaches for not getting him to fall in line in the first place.

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:26 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by couturefan39 View Post
There has to be a reason why Doug Wilson hasn't made a move yet.

This team is just not simply good enough to make it past the first round... or even make the playoffs.
Sounds like from Pollacks Blog that DW is not concerned and believes this team can fix its self and get into the playoffs. They did it last year. Only if the team fails to make the playoffs will he realize he's got to make a deal then it'll be to late to save the season.

I think it'll be close to even get into the playoffs for us this year. Even if we make it i can't see us getting out of the 1st round.

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:32 PM
  #194
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Sounds like from Pollacks Blog that DW is not concerned and believes this team can fix its self and get into the playoffs. They did it last year. Only if the team fails to make the playoffs will he realize he's got to make a deal then it'll be to late to save the season.

I think it'll be close to even get into the playoffs for us this year. Even if we make it i can't see us getting out of the 1st round.
Or it's because there hasn't been any moves to make yet. And what else is he supposed to say about the team? That they suck and they need one or two more players? What happens when those trades aren't available? Then DW is stuck with a team that thinks their manager doesn't believe in them.
Seriously, we're looking way too deep into DW's quotes. We should know better by now. He doesn't tell the media anything.

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:35 PM
  #195
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I don't want a trade at all right now. I want a new Head Coach.

If we get one and the team is still ass by the TDL, then sure, blow it up. But for now, we just need a new ****ing coach. McLellan is awful.

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:53 PM
  #196
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Or it's because there hasn't been any moves to make yet. And what else is he supposed to say about the team? That they suck and they need one or two more players? What happens when those trades aren't available? Then DW is stuck with a team that thinks their manager doesn't believe in them.
Seriously, we're looking way too deep into DW's quotes. We should know better by now. He doesn't tell the media anything.
I'd re-state that there are no moves to be made that wont' cost us future picks or prospects (what few we have).

DW is always a supporter of his players, always. So, yea, this is what he would say, who is surprised at this - i'd say no-one here that follows this closely.

What i'm getting at is what will make or force him into action at this point? Not making the playoffs and losing that extra revenue might do it, clearly just making the playoffs and or a 1st round exit, again, may not be enough. Perhaps 1 regulation win in March could do it...

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:56 PM
  #197
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I don't want a trade at all right now. I want a new Head Coach.

If we get one and the team is still ass by the TDL, then sure, blow it up. But for now, we just need a new ****ing coach. McLellan is awful.
I'm not ready to dump the coach yet, remember we changed all the associate coaches that mattered this past off season, i'd say decent upgrades there, so the collective coaching IQ and perspective is up and better on whats going on.

I still believe, at this time, with all due respect, that the player mix is the problem.

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Old
03-02-2013, 12:11 AM
  #198
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I'm not ready to dump the coach yet, remember we changed all the associate coaches that mattered this past off season, i'd say decent upgrades there, so the collective coaching IQ and perspective is up and better on whats going on.

I still believe, at this time, with all due respect, that the player mix is the problem.
This. Every player at ever level of hockey wants to score a goal. The fact that our bottom six seems incapable speaks to talent problem more than a system or coaching problem. The top six not scoring has similar connotations. Juicy and havlat were playing great to start but then the boat anchor that they were dragging around (clowe) finally brought down the whole line. Now it seems everyone is gripping the stick too tightly as they are missing some easy chances on a regular basis. Sadly this team doesn't appear to have any game changers at forward at the moment. I hope that's just a collective lack of confidence and not a legitimate lack of talent that we fans have just over rated. It seems to me like if they could just break thru and get a couple they might uncork their offensive constipation. I mean were the first 2 weeks really all about luck over talent..? I hope not...


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Old
03-02-2013, 12:20 AM
  #199
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Seriously though, I think we shouldnt get rid of either of them. Boyle should be the first to go for youth once Burns is back. The pieces we get for Boyle, and replacing Handzus, Clowe and Murray with speedy people should be enough.
This is a pipe dream... You are not getting anything useful now for clowe. Maybe a 2nd or late 1st from a desperate contender but no player will be coming back that is ready to help this team. You'd be lucky to get a 3rd for Handzus or murray but again no player that's ready now.

Boyle is the only one in that group who might bring back legit help now. And if we're not looking for help now and just planning a rebuild, you ditch Thornton and Marleau first IMO. I think I prefer my younger players learn how to be a pro from someone who had to fight to be in the NHL like boyle over players that are there more because of talent. Marleau could do it to a certain degree to since hes always been a hard worker. But Thornton is the first guy I trade when deciding to rebuild. He brings the most return.

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Old
03-02-2013, 01:15 AM
  #200
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I don't want a trade at all right now. I want a new Head Coach.

If we get one and the team is still ass by the TDL, then sure, blow it up. But for now, we just need a new ****ing coach. McLellan is awful.
Doug Wilson is more of a problem than McLellan.

Wilson did nothing at all to improve this team after they lost to the Blues in the playoffs. It's also his fault that we have no good prospects.

No first round picks in 2008, 2009, 2010 (traded Coyle), and 2011.

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