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Getting Kronwalled

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Old
02-26-2013, 06:31 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Honestly, if he fought a couple times a year I'd be his biggest fan.

I like players that throw big hits.

But I don't like when said players never, ever drop the gloves.
Thats fair, but why should he have to fight? He's not out there to please the fans, hes out to help his team win.

Why would he fight (and risk an injury, hes clearly a terrible fighter) if it helps his team MUCH more not to fight?

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02-26-2013, 06:33 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by nbwingsfan View Post
I agree there are certain times that he does cross the line.

But like you said, the vast majority are fantastic hits that just are not done enough in the NHL today due to too many fans flipping out any time a player is knocked down on their team.

These hits happen because players have not yet realized that they need to keep their head up or be laid out when Kronwall is on the ice. Too many players feel protected and are not looking out for their own safety, which is taught to players at such a young age.
It is the same thing with Ballard. People think his hip checks are clipping, sure he's gotten low maybe once or twice, but the vast majority are just huge hits that PO people.

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02-26-2013, 06:34 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by nbwingsfan View Post
Thats fair, but why should he have to fight? He's not out there to please the fans, hes out to help his team win.

Why would he fight (and risk an injury, hes clearly a terrible fighter) if it helps his team MUCH more not to fight?
I'm just old-fashioned in some aspects, I guess (even though I'm in my 20's).

Players who throw bit hits (like Kronwall) and fight are some of my favorite types of players.

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02-26-2013, 06:40 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
I'm just old-fashioned in some aspects, I guess (even though I'm in my 20's).

Players who throw bit hits (like Kronwall) and fight are some of my favorite types of players.
Which is fine and completely understandable.

What I dont understand are fans(not saying you) who think that Kronwalls hits are a disgrace JUST because he doesnt fight and that he absolutely has to fight after laying these hits or else he doesnt deserve to be in the NHL, as if there is actually a rule stating he must do so.

They never stop to think that the whole point of an NHL game is to win, and that Kronwall is helping much more by not fighting and drawing a penalty instead.

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02-26-2013, 06:43 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by nbwingsfan View Post
Which is fine and completely understandable.

What I dont understand are fans(not saying you) who think that Kronwalls hits are a disgrace JUST because he doesnt fight and that he absolutely has to fight after laying these hits or else he doesnt deserve to be in the NHL, as if there is actually a rule stating he must do so.

They never stop to think that the whole point of an NHL game is to win, and that Kronwall is helping much more by not fighting and drawing a penalty instead.
Couldn't agree more. I love it when guys like Kassian feel the need to stand up for their teammates after a clean hit, and help us by taking a stupid penalty.

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02-26-2013, 06:50 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by nbwingsfan View Post
Thats fair, but why should he have to fight? He's not out there to please the fans, hes out to help his team win.

Why would he fight (and risk an injury, hes clearly a terrible fighter) if it helps his team MUCH more not to fight?
He shouldn't have to fight, but when he leaves his feet like that hit on Kesler, he should expect someone to try to injure him or one of his teammates in retribution.

One way to prevent that is to fight.

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02-26-2013, 06:54 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
He shouldn't have to fight, but when he leaves his feet like that hit on Kesler, he should expect someone to try to injure him or one of his teammates in retribution.

One way to prevent that is to fight.
Actually he shouldnt expect that at all, since exactly 0 players have ever gone after Kronwall OR anyone on his team and intentionally try to injure them as "retribution"..its literally NEVER happened.

All that happens is players go after him, they get a penalty, and the Wings get a powerplay.

Hence, helping his team win, the whole point of hockey.

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02-26-2013, 06:55 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
He shouldn't have to fight, but when he leaves his feet like that hit on Kesler, he should expect someone to try to injure him or one of his teammates in retribution.

One way to prevent that is to fight.
If he injured a player, why would a fight make it better? To use an extreme case, did Moore's fighting prevent the Bertuzzi-Moore incident? (The answer is no.)

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02-26-2013, 07:06 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by nbwingsfan View Post
Actually he shouldnt expect that at all, since exactly 0 players have ever gone after Kronwall OR anyone on his team and intentionally try to injure them as "retribution"..its literally NEVER happened.

All that happens is players go after him, they get a penalty, and the Wings get a powerplay.

Hence, helping his team win, the whole point of hockey.
If he isn't going to be called for the hits where he leaves his feet, and won't answer the bell, the only option for other players is to take justice into their own hands. Not saying they have in the past, but at some point someone will.

There are many ways to help your team win. Injuring the opposing team's players is one of them. So, if somebody took out Datsyuk in response to a dirty Kronwall hit, I guess you would support that, right?

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02-26-2013, 07:06 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by thebigbea View Post
he loves hitting with his back.. but it guess it's better than hitting players with his shoulder... that's why he doesn't cause too much injuries..

the thing i don't like about him is he doesn't back up what he does.. you have to drop your gloves once a while if you are playing like this.. ..
Why does he have to drop the gloves? As long as the hits are legal and clean he shouldn`t have to answer to anything. hockey is a physical sport and if you or your teammate get leveled by a clean hit it`s your own fault for not paying attention and keeping your head up. take it like a man. if it`s an illegal hit then i agree with you. but in kronwalls cases there aren`t any illegal checks imo.

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02-26-2013, 07:07 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I love that Kronwall doesn't fight. Both because it draws powerplays for the Wings, and because it annoys the sort of yokel fans I love to see upset.
He shouldn't fight after a clean hit.

A hit where he leaves his feet, though? He should expect some sort of retribution.

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02-26-2013, 07:10 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Honestly, if he fought a couple times a year I'd be his biggest fan.

I like players that throw big hits.

But I don't like when said players never, ever drop the gloves.
I understand this line of thinking completely and generally agree that I would rather him fight a couple times to seem a bit more honest in what he does. He doesnt do it and people can dislike him for that and I dont have a problem with it.

People calling every one of his hits illegal is a different story though. I think the Nashville hit was pretty bad but that was before the crackdown on hits like we have now. The Kesler one even though it looks bad you can find still frames where he appears to be on ice at contact, same with pretty much all of his hits. He times them so well that its impossible to tell on most. Timed so well that they are within the rules. People can not like the hits but dont say theyre all illegal you look stupid doing that. A lot of Flyer fans were calling for his head and a suspension after the Voracek hit and afterwards JV himself said it was his fault for not having his head up

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Old
02-26-2013, 07:10 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by CaptainCally View Post
Why does he have to drop the gloves? As long as the hits are legal and clean he shouldn`t have to answer to anything. hockey is a physical sport and if you or your teammate get leveled by a clean hit it`s your own fault for not paying attention and keeping your head up. take it like a man. if it`s an illegal hit then i agree with you. but in kronwalls cases there aren`t any illegal checks imo.
leaving your feet is an illegal check


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02-26-2013, 07:14 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
If he isn't going to be called for the hits where he leaves his feet, and won't answer the bell, the only option for other players is to take justice into their own hands. Not saying they have in the past, but at some point someone will.

There are many ways to help your team win. Injuring the opposing team's players is one of them. So, if somebody took out Datsyuk in response to a dirty Kronwall hit, I guess you would support that, right?
If his hits were dirty like you say, then Kronwall would have been suspended or fined. But the fact is he NEVER has, not once.

I can guarantee that Shanahan and NHL officials know more about hockey than you do, and they have deemed every single one of his hits legal and not worthy of a suspension.

So yes, if a player injured Kronwall with a hit that was not deserving of a suspension, then I would expect non of the wings players to go after said player.

And no, someone will not "eventually" go after Detroits star players because of a Kronwall hit. Do you even realize how rare that happens to ANY team?

And btw Kronwalls hits have rarely really injured anyone.

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02-26-2013, 07:17 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by nbwingsfan View Post
I said players who made CLEAN hits.

Which of Cooke's suspended hits were clean and within the rules that made him have to change his game? Please tell me.
They made plenty of clean hits. Some of which resulted in injuries.

Cooke less so but Armstrong was top on my list for a reason.

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02-26-2013, 07:19 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
He shouldn't fight after a clean hit.

A hit where he leaves his feet, though? He should expect some sort of retribution.
I'm fine with him dropping down and refusing to fight back. If the refs do their jobs properly, that means a 7 minute pretty powerplay for the Wings.

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02-26-2013, 07:19 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
They made plenty of clean hits. Some of which resulted in injuries.

Cooke less so but Armstrong was top on my list for a reason.
I'm not going to continue this argument until you show me video evidence. Because anyone can make a claim without backing it up.

Something you have continued to do.

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02-26-2013, 07:23 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I'm fine with him dropping down and refusing to fight back. If the refs do their jobs properly, that means a 7 minute pretty powerplay for the Wings.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I completely understand. I admit his hits are usually clean, but we're talking about those occasions where he leaves his feet and makes a dangerous, dirty check.

Are you saying you like it when he makes a dirty hit then hides behind the refs?

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02-26-2013, 07:25 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I completely understand. I admit his hits are usually clean, but we're talking about those occasions where he leaves his feet and makes a dangerous, dirty check.

Are you saying you like it when he makes a dirty hit then hides behind the refs?
Yep, because I couldn't care less about fighting or "The Code" or any of that nonsense.

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02-26-2013, 07:26 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
If he isn't going to be called for the hits where he leaves his feet, and won't answer the bell, the only option for other players is to take justice into their own hands. Not saying they have in the past, but at some point someone will.

There are many ways to help your team win. Injuring the opposing team's players is one of them. So, if somebody took out Datsyuk in response to a dirty Kronwall hit, I guess you would support that, right?
Speaking of class acts, Danille Carcillo leveled an Oilers player in their last game and that player skated right to Hossa and leveled him and leveled him hard.

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02-26-2013, 07:27 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I'm fine with him dropping down and refusing to fight back. If the refs do their jobs properly, that means a 7 minute pretty powerplay for the Wings.
That works sometimes, but other times it just pisses the other team off and gets him off his game where if he just fought it would cool down the situation for the rest of the game. I remember after he hit Voracek the Flyers kept dumping it into his corner and trying to get good contact on him and it was very apparent that he was hesitant to go into the corner and was getting rid of the puck as soon as it touched his stick, many times just turning it over.

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02-26-2013, 07:29 PM
  #147
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Wow.

How many people using the physics actually understand physics? No, two objects colliding do not magically create momentum in a new plane; pool balls do not flip off the table everytime someone makes a hard shot.

Momentum / Force is a vector quantity and conserved only in the direction it is going.

If someone rises up after contact, it is because someone had vertical momentum before contact - or someone is actively creating a vertical force during he hit (ie: someone ducking the hit and then pushing up with their legs as the guy goes over). In this case, you can clearly see Kronwall jumping into all of his hits - he is bringing that vertical momentum. His center of mass is also pretty clearly accelerating upwards before the hits, you can see it from how his knees go from bent to straight right before the hit (just like how we jump). While his feet may or may not be on the ice depending on the instant of the screen grab, that doesn't mean he isn't in the act of jumping.

To suggest the guy is superhuman and can time these jumps to always only land after contact is bunk.

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02-26-2013, 07:30 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Those photos are not incriminating evidence



Yeah, it's more dangerous. Hockey's a dangerous game. Doesn't mean his hits are illegal though. Well there might be a couple, but generally no



I know the rules. The NHL knows the rules, which is why he's never been suspended and hardly even gets penalties from those hits. I'm guessing you know the rules better than Shanahan and his disciplinary committee, right?

So yeah, the rules are available to you if you would like to be informed on the issue
Here you go:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26331


42.1 Charging - A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

It does not say "before" contact. But hey far be it from me to convince some poster on a message board that thinks he knows everything.

As for the non-call -- apparently Shanahan didn't think the Miller/Lucic hit was worthy either.

Carry on .

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02-26-2013, 07:31 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Oni View Post
Wow.

How many people using the physics actually understand physics? No, two objects colliding do not magically create momentum in a new plane; pool balls do not flip off the table everytime someone makes a hard shot.

Momentum is a vector quantity and conserved only in the direction it is going.

If someone rises up after contact, it is because someone had vertical momentum before contact. In this case, you can clearly see Kronwall jumping into all of his hits - he is bringing that vertical momentum. His center of mass is also pretty clearly accelerating upwards before the hits, you can see it from how his knees go from bent to straight right before the hit (just like how we jump). While he feet may be on the ice, that doesn't mean he isn't in the act of jumping.

To suggest the guy is superhuman and can time these jumps to always only land after contact is bunk.
Except exploding upwards in a hit is not illegal if your feet are still on the ice and the primary point of contact is not the head, which is cannot be in the majority of his hits since he turns his back into the hits.

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02-26-2013, 07:32 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Oni View Post
Wow.

How many people using the physics actually understand physics? No, two objects colliding do not magically create momentum in a new plane; pool balls do not flip off the table everytime someone makes a hard shot.

Momentum is a vector quantity and conserved only in the direction it is going.

If someone rises up after contact, it is because someone had vertical momentum before contact. In this case, you can clearly see Kronwall jumping into all of his hits - he is bringing that vertical momentum. His center of mass is also pretty clearly accelerating upwards before the hits, you can see it from how his knees go from bent to straight right before the hit (just like how we jump). While he feet may be on the ice, that doesn't mean he isn't in the act of jumping.

To suggest the guy is superhuman and can time these jumps to always only land after contact is bunk.
If the NHL doesn't want to allow players to explode upwards into hits by contracting then lengthening their knees, they should write the rule that way.

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