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Memorial Cup Thread Part II

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05-21-2013, 10:01 PM
  #1
RockLobster
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Memorial Cup Thread Part II

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05-21-2013, 10:07 PM
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I don't like Stastny or RoR as the no.2 center. Trade Stastny, RoR plays on the third line where he belongs, $5 million dollars for an awesome shutdown center with 50-60 point upside as his absolute best output. Duchene-Mack-RoR...you are set down the middle for years. X, Elliott, Siemens, Barrie, EJ....you are set on D for years.

I don't see how Jones is any more a fit than Mackinnon considering Stastny's age and how unproductive him and RoR can be as no.2 centers.

Anyway, you don't draft based on need or fit, period.


Last edited by Avsboy: 05-21-2013 at 10:22 PM.
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05-21-2013, 10:07 PM
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Aw come on we still had one more post to go
London looks like their in trouble. I don't think I've seen London get beaten that badly before. They were used and abused against Halifax. Hunter is really going to have to work his magic before playing Portland/Saskatoon. I think the best thing London has going for them is that the loser of the Portland/Saskatoon game will be playing the second of a back to back against London.

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05-21-2013, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
I don't like Stastny or RoR as the no.2 center. Trade Stastny, RoR plays on the third line where he belongs, $5 million dollars for an awesome shutdown center with 50-60 point upside. Duchene-Mack-RoR...you are set down the middle for years. X, Elliott, Siemens, Barrie, EJ....you are set on D for years.

I don't see how Jones is any more a fit than Mackinnon considering Stastny's age and how unproductive him and RoR can be as no.2 centers.

Anyway, you don't draft based on need or fit, period.
Well, I don't know what you want from a 1st or 2nd line Center, but a center who scores 50-60 points IS a 2nd line Center. So if we get that from O'Reilly then he's at the very least a 2nd Line C.

If you think otherwise (i.e. more points) then your expectations are too high and need to be realigned.

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05-21-2013, 10:12 PM
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Well, I don't know what you want from a 1st or 2nd line Center, but a center who scores 50-60 points IS a 2nd line Center. So if we get that from O'Reilly then he's at the very least a 2nd Line C.

If you think otherwise (i.e. more points) then your expectations are too high and need to be realigned.
That's the thing. I don't have to realign my expectations if we draft Mackinnon, who would hopefully be a PPG player by year three.

What's beautiful about this is how we troll the Oilers. Draft picks Duchene and Mackinnon are just better than most of their offense even though they've sucked for so long.

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05-21-2013, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
I don't like Stastny or RoR as the no.2 center. Trade Stastny, RoR plays on the third line where he belongs, $5 million dollars for an awesome shutdown center with 50-60 point upside. Duchene-Mack-RoR...you are set down the middle for years. X, Elliott, Siemens, Barrie, EJ....you are set on D for years.

I don't see how Jones is any more a fit than Mackinnon considering Stastny's age and how unproductive him and RoR can be as no.2 centers.

Anyway, you don't draft based on need or fit, period.
That's true unless top two picks are 1a 1b which I believe Jones and Mackinnon are. Now Avs can look at the needs and draft by position considering which position needs to be upgraded the most.

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05-21-2013, 10:18 PM
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That's the thing. I don't have to realign my expectations if we draft Mackinnon, who would hopefully be a PPG player by year three.
I'm not talking about MacKinnon.

You are saying that O'Reilly can't be a 2nd Line Center, but say that he needs to be on the 3rd line as an "Awesome shutdown center while scoring 50-60 points"...

I am saying that a Center who scores 50-60 points IS a 2nd line Center, that's what I'm telling you that you need to realign. We already have a #1 Center (Duchene) and two #2 Centers (O'Reilly/Stastny).

I don't see the point in debating with anyone on this. I've made my feelings perfectly clear, I want Jones. I think he's the clear BPA and therefore should be the #1 pick. That he happens to fill an organizational need is just icing on the cake. I won't be unhappy with MacKinnon, but I do feel that it wouldn't be taking the BPA.

It's impossible to compare Jones and MacKinnon in my opinion, because they do play two different positions that have different responsibilities

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05-21-2013, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I'm not talking about MacKinnon.

You are saying that O'Reilly can't be a 2nd Line Center, but say that he needs to be on the 3rd line as an "Awesome shutdown center while scoring 50-60 points"...

I am saying that a Center who scores 50-60 points IS a 2nd line Center, that's what I'm telling you that you need to realign. We already have a #1 Center (Duchene) and two #2 Centers (O'Reilly/Stastny).

I don't see the point in debating with anyone on this. I've made my feelings perfectly clear, I want Jones. I think he's the clear BPA and therefore should be the #1 pick. That he happens to fill an organizational need is just icing on the cake. I won't be unhappy with MacKinnon, but I do feel that it wouldn't be taking the BPA.

It's impossible to compare Jones and MacKinnon in my opinion, because they do play two different positions that have different responsibilities
I don't think Jones is the clear cut BPA, he's just the best fit for the Avs. Like I said in my post above, Jones and Mackinnon are 1a 1 b.

Also considering that great d-men come along less often than forwards is what makes Jones an intriguing choice.

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05-21-2013, 10:42 PM
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I don't think Jones is the clear cut BPA, he's just the best fit for the Avs. Like I said in my post above, Jones and Mackinnon are 1a 1 b.

Also considering that great d-men come along less often than forwards is what makes Jones an intriguing choice.
The good thing is that no matter who we pick the other 2 are going to be in the East so we won't have to play against them all the time if they turn out to be amazing.

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05-21-2013, 11:32 PM
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I'm starting to lean more towards Nate Mac now...but I won't be angry if we draft Seth.

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05-22-2013, 12:49 AM
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I don't think scouts are going to be too swayed by what happens in the Memorial Cup. Sample size is just too small. They should already know every player inside out by now and have a decision in the bag.

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05-22-2013, 03:09 AM
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I don't think scouts are going to be too swayed by what happens in the Memorial Cup. Sample size is just too small. They should already know every player inside out by now and have a decision in the bag.
Not even close IMO. Scouts/GM don't have the same biased attitude as fans. There's not a Crosby in the field. Neither Jones, Drouin, Mackinnon are so far ahead of eachother that any team will have a easy choice. They haven't even done the interviews have they? A players character could deff sway opinion if the talent is close, heck some teams it could sway the opinion if the talent wasn't close.

Memorial Cup will have little affect because they have years worth of scouting on these players like you said. Mackinnon has been watched for how long? Jones same deal. Memorial Cup is like the NHL finals tho, and no doubt people will be looking at how these guys step up in the "big moments" and looking at the compete level and competitiveness I imagine. Which probably won't be enough to do much in the grand scheme of things.

I'm sure they have a good idea but I would completely shocked if they were 100% nothing can change there mind decided before any interviews, the combine, memorial cup and games still being played. Just wouldn't make sense.

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05-22-2013, 05:25 AM
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That's true unless top two picks are 1a 1b which I believe Jones and Mackinnon are. Now Avs can look at the needs and draft by position considering which position needs to be upgraded the most.
They havent looked like 1a and 1b at the Memorial Cup, that's the problem. No one would be talking about MacKinnon if that's the case.

Besides, look at this forum. Not one post for Jones has been anything other than "we need a dman".

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05-22-2013, 05:27 AM
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A players character could deff sway opinion
I pray that's not the case. Players charm in the interview room won't help you much on the ice.

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05-22-2013, 05:30 AM
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I don't think scouts are going to be too swayed by what happens in the Memorial Cup. Sample size is just too small. They should already know every player inside out by now and have a decision in the bag.
That's a bad call too, if any scout is dismissing these games as irrelevant. What that does is basically play favorites and ignore if your favored pick has bad games. That's not evaluating players. And if the pick turns out not to be everything that he was hyped? You'll go back to these games and honestly look at them and say "well, he really wasnt that good. We wanted him to be and we hoped, but...".

How do you think draft blunders happen?

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05-22-2013, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure
They are both high IQ big D men, but Seth has him beat in physical tools.
Seth Jones is an impressive specimen physically, still needs to add some muscle and get even bigger.

The problem I have with this is that in the matches I seen him, at moments he looks like a 5ft-8in defenseman trapped in a 6ft-4in body. He doesn't use his physical tools, he doesn't punish anyone and plays a small man's game. Someone needs to tell him he's big and he can manhandle his opponents.


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05-22-2013, 06:18 AM
  #17
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Manny Malhotra stands out as an example of too much focus on a great Memorial Cup run.

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05-22-2013, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by marioni View Post
They havent looked like 1a and 1b at the Memorial Cup, that's the problem. No one would be talking about MacKinnon if that's the case.

Besides, look at this forum. Not one post for Jones has been anything other than "we need a dman".
Interesting take on things which I kind of agree with.

As for the ROR as a second line centre. Yes, he is good enough to be one without a doubt. But the teams who win Championships are teams that have been rolling with 3 great centres. Think of Malkin, Crosby and Staal. Jordan Staal is not a third line centre, but when he was used as one look how strong the team is.

It's not out of the question that ROR could one day be a 1C, but when he's a team's third best centre, that team looks pretty good.



Does everybody remember this board falling a few years ago when this team needed a D and everyone though Larsson was our man. Then we picked Landy and people were so upset. The organization knew he was our man and was best player available and I don't think anybody regrets them choosing our captain then. I trust our scouts and I know they will take whoever they think will be the better NHL player, regardless of their position.

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05-22-2013, 07:55 AM
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The good thing about the front office shake up not hitting Pracey we don't have a new bunch of guys playing catch up and only getting some playoffs and Memorial Cup as evaluators.

Pracey and co. Have had a good idea where the Avs would be drafting for months and surely have done due diligence on the top prospects.

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05-22-2013, 08:34 AM
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Not to make excuses but maybe the full schedule is catching up with Seth. This is his first year in the WHL after playing NTDP, and with the WJC, WHL playoffs, and now Memorial Cup hes gotta be up around 100 games played this year.

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05-22-2013, 09:05 AM
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Scouts have seen these players for 2-3 years and know their capabilities more than anyone on this board except maybe a select few. A couple games at the Memorial Cup will have very little to no change on the draft order, people are crazy to think otherwise. It is just such a small sample size when you look at 4-5 games compared to 120-130+ games that they have on film or have seen in person.

What MacKinnon and Drouin are showing is exactly what they have shown all season and especially in the playoffs. So this comes as absolutely no surprise, in fact it was pretty much expected. When you look at that line you have an extreme abundance of talent with 2 top 3 picks and a mid 2nd round pick a year after his draft year. They should put up a bunch of points because it is not often you have that level of talent on a line.

For the people wanting Jones to just manhandle everyone, you obviously don't watch junior hockey enough. Bigger players like Jones, Siemens, Zadorov, etc get called for many penalties for just being bigger and stronger than their opponents. I would also like it if Jones would have a bit more of that in him, but I think part of it is coaching and part of it is his nature. I think he will be more physical in the NHL because of coaching and he won't have as many crappy penalties on him if he does. Though he will never be known as a Pronger or Stevens type hitter.

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05-22-2013, 09:09 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by kento19 View Post
As for the ROR as a second line centre. Yes, he is good enough to be one without a doubt. But the teams who win Championships are teams that have been rolling with 3 great centres.
Not necessarily. LA had Kopitar, Richards, and Stoll. Kopitar is great, Richards had a crappy season followed up by a great playoff and Stoll was the defensive guy. Boston had Krejci, Bergeron, and Chris Kelly. Bergeron is who we hope O'Reilly can become, and is Krejci a huge upgrade over Duchene? Kelly is your standard 3rd line center. Chicago went with Toews, Bolland, and I think Sharp played center that year. What all 3 of those teams did have is a franchise defenseman leading the way.

There's no one way to build a Cup team, but Pittsburgh is the rare team that won without a franchise defenseman. When you have the two best centers in the world, that helps, but not every team will have that.

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05-22-2013, 10:27 AM
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Prior to the World Juniors MacKinnon was considered to be the consensus number one pick amongst scouts; however, after the tournament there was a shift towards Jones.

Was that changes attributed towards their play in the tournament? If so, is the Memorial Cup not held in the same regard? Just curious.

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05-22-2013, 10:29 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by GamingGiant View Post
Prior to the World Juniors MacKinnon was considered to be the consensus number one pick amongst scouts; however, after the tournament there was a shift towards Jones.

Was that changes attributed towards their play in the tournament? If so, is the Memorial Cup not held in the same regard? Just curious.
Most scouts were impressed with Jones play in the WHL more than the WJC. I'd also rank WJC above the Memorial Cup.

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05-22-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GamingGiant View Post
Prior to the World Juniors MacKinnon was considered to be the consensus number one pick amongst scouts; however, after the tournament there was a shift towards Jones.

Was that changes attributed towards their play in the tournament? If so, is the Memorial Cup not held in the same regard? Just curious.
If you read McKenzie's analysis of the rankings, scouts mention Jones' play in the WHL as their reason for changing, which is reasonable considering he played against weaker competition the year before.

I'm sure the WJC helped, but it's not the only reason.

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