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2013 NHL Draft Thread II (6/30, 3PM EDT)

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Old
03-14-2013, 03:54 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by CBJ Bob View Post
Good analysis. I believe Barkov is worth the price to move up. He's dominating the top league in Finland as a 17 yo. He's going to be one of the youngest players drafted. IMO he'd be #1 overall most years. This size and skill dosn't come along often.
IMO, there are 5 guys this year who could have been the #1 overall last year. Jones, Mackinnon, Barkov, Drouin, Nichushkin. If any draft is going to be close to 2003 it could be this one, though even the people at the '03 draft didn't know it was going to be that good.

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03-14-2013, 04:34 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by CBJ Bob View Post
Good analysis. I believe Barkov is worth the price to move up. He's dominating the top league in Finland as a 17 yo. He's going to be one of the youngest players drafted. IMO he'd be #1 overall most years. This size and skill dosn't come along often.
Of course the price (to move from 10th to 4th) I was discussing (Calvert + Golo) is way short of what it will likely cost. In fact its possible that the team sitting at 4 simply won't trade to 10 unless they get what would be an overpayment from our perspective.

The exceptions I can foresee to that, where a team would be willing to move down from 4th, is if a team that is already built down the middle (like Philadelphia) decides they would rather take our pieces and draft a Nurse or Nichushkin at 10. They would still get a lot out of us because they would have other offers to move down, but it would likely benefit both sides.

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03-14-2013, 04:53 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by CBJ Bob View Post
Good analysis. I believe Barkov is worth the price to move up. He's dominating the top league in Finland as a 17 yo. He's going to be one of the youngest players drafted. IMO he'd be #1 overall most years. This size and skill dosn't come along often.
This is case where Jarmo is really going to come in handy, since it's hard to get a read on Barkov.

He's going to be a solid NHLer. The question is what his offensive potential is. At the WJC, he hasn't looked all that great, but the whole Finnish team was terrible. Barkov's skating isn't elite, which is the real question mark. The bigger ice actually helps slower players, since it gives them more space and time.

Barkov's stats are amazing for a 17 year old, but his linemate Ville Nieminen has almost identical numbers and you wonder how much that helped.

Elias Lindholm ended up 29th in scoring in the SEL and broke Nicklas Bäckström's scoring record for 18 year olds, but he's continuing to slide for no apparent reason.

If a player like Shinkaruk explodes in the WHL playoffs, it could push Barkov and Lindholm down. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I hope there are enough teams that like another player a little better that the Jackets can have a huge steal without having to give up assets to trade up.

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Old
03-14-2013, 04:58 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by major major View Post
Of course the price (to move from 10th to 4th) I was discussing (Calvert + Golo) is way short of what it will likely cost. In fact its possible that the team sitting at 4 simply won't trade to 10 unless they get what would be an overpayment from our perspective.

The exceptions I can foresee to that, where a team would be willing to move down from 4th, is if a team that is already built down the middle (like Philadelphia) decides they would rather take our pieces and draft a Nurse or Nichushkin at 10. They would still get a lot out of us because they would have other offers to move down, but it would likely benefit both sides.
My original thought was a roster player and a prospect, used Calvert & Goloubef as examples and did say it was probably a low ball. I have never been particularly adept at framing trade values.

It is still my point that it will not be worth what it will cost to move up. Take the 4/40 add it to what we have and away we go. Then work at balancing the roster. There's very good chance they all start in SPR.

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03-14-2013, 05:04 PM
  #180
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In my opinion, I would trade for one of the top 4 spots. Exactly what I'm not sure but I'd swap our 1st pick and then add accordingly depending on how far away our pick was. I think I'd be willing to give up either our last 1st or our 2nd and throw in a prospect/young guy.

To me getting one of Mackinnon, Drouin, Barkov is very important. We need a center that can score or a wing for that matter. In my opinion we don't have anyone who is a potential 30 goal scorer. We need one.

I'm not even sure we have 1st line players as defined by other teams. I think we need one.

We have too many guys who are redundant. Smallish, quick, good defenders, hustlers,etc , especially as defined by the last 10 games
or so. This would be a chance to potentially turn one or two of them into something special.

Conversely if we collapse and have say wind up with the 3rd pick, I assume those above who won't trade up would be very willing to trade down because obviously the 3rd pick isn't worth much?

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03-14-2013, 05:06 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest View Post
This is case where Jarmo is really going to come in handy, since it's hard to get a read on Barkov.

He's going to be a solid NHLer. The question is what his offensive potential is. At the WJC, he hasn't looked all that great, but the whole Finnish team was terrible. Barkov's skating isn't elite, which is the real question mark. The bigger ice actually helps slower players, since it gives them more space and time.

Barkov's stats are amazing for a 17 year old, but his linemate Ville Nieminen has almost identical numbers and you wonder how much that helped.

Elias Lindholm ended up 29th in scoring in the SEL and broke Nicklas Bäckström's scoring record for 18 year olds, but he's continuing to slide for no apparent reason.

If a player like Shinkaruk explodes in the WHL playoffs, it could push Barkov and Lindholm down. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I hope there are enough teams that like another player a little better that the Jackets can have a huge steal without having to give up assets to trade up.
It has definitely helped Barkov, in many ways. Nieminen has seemed like good mentor for him.

But it's Barkov who has been the better player. And it was like that when Jannik Hansen was the other winger. And other NHLers were playing against him.

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03-14-2013, 05:08 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest View Post
This is case where Jarmo is really going to come in handy, since it's hard to get a read on Barkov.

He's going to be a solid NHLer. The question is what his offensive potential is. At the WJC, he hasn't looked all that great, but the whole Finnish team was terrible. Barkov's skating isn't elite, which is the real question mark. The bigger ice actually helps slower players, since it gives them more space and time.

Barkov's stats are amazing for a 17 year old, but his linemate Ville Nieminen has almost identical numbers and you wonder how much that helped.

Elias Lindholm ended up 29th in scoring in the SEL and broke Nicklas Bäckström's scoring record for 18 year olds, but he's continuing to slide for no apparent reason.

If a player like Shinkaruk explodes in the WHL playoffs, it could push Barkov and Lindholm down. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I hope there are enough teams that like another player a little better that the Jackets can have a huge steal without having to give up assets to trade up.
Believe me, he's not sliding. I've watched all of his games this spring and he has just played better and better, clearly their best player these first two playoff games. I can definitely see him go ahead of Barkov in the draft. Barkov is having a wonderful season, but he does play on the highest scoring team in a higher scoring league than Lindholm does. Lindholm's scoring puts him in in the middle of elite company with P Forsberg, the Sedins, Backstrom, Näslund and Tomas Sandström.

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03-14-2013, 05:10 PM
  #183
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Never said the tops picks weren't worth much. What I have maintained all along is they aren't worth what it's going to cost if we don't land there on our own.

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03-14-2013, 05:19 PM
  #184
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Believe me, he's not sliding. I've watched all of his games this spring and he has just played better and better, clearly their best player these first two playoff games. I can definitely see him go ahead of Barkov in the draft. Barkov is having a wonderful season, but he does play on the highest scoring team in a higher scoring league than Lindholm does. Lindholm's scoring puts him in in the middle of elite company with P Forsberg, the Sedins, Backstrom, Näslund and Tomas Sandström.
Well, sliding in the rankings. And I don't know exactly why. His recent back injury doesn't seem serious. He played today in Brynäs' second playoff game.

I don't mind if he does slide, because Lindholm would be perfect for the Jackets. He's the playmaking center they need and has an intensity to his game that fits with current game plan.

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Old
03-14-2013, 05:28 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
WHY?

I just don't understand this obsession with getting one of the "top four" big picks. Yes I know they are the creme of the crop and "all that", but I have yet to hear that they are that kind of generational talent that can single-handedly make a team ala Crosby, Malkin, Toews. Yes I get it, look at Pittsburgh, look at Chicago, heard it ad nauseum.

The top pick in the draft guarantees you nothing except a very good player (usually) see EDM. BUT Cup winners have been built with solid drafting that doesn't include the top prize, see BOS, see LA, see ANA. There is so much more to it than just a top Pick.

We have what should be 4 picks in the top 40 in a very deep draft. We have some organizational depth, we have some additional prospects coming. We have managed to change the culture to an environment in which a up and coming young player actually has an opportunity to develop.

We have all this going forward, WHY would we pay an exorbitant price, and make no mistake it will be exorbitant, to move up, when excellent options are there for the taking WITHOUT sacrificing much needed assets already in place?????
I am not saying I would do it, but this is the reason I would. We have a lot of good players. We NEED some great ones. The best/easiest way for us to get those players is at the top of drafts.

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Old
03-14-2013, 05:32 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by alphafox View Post
Yep, the bolded is true, and being fair if we had an organizational history of successful drafting I would be on your team or if i though we only needed top six forwards. I love what JD/JK bring across the board, however most of the scouting team is still the same as under Howson (though I will admit they have been decent the last few years). JK can only be as good as the information he gets. Do I think he will draft well, yes. However, I'd like him to get his team in place first before we just take it on faith that we will draft well.

The other big reason I advocate the trade up method is because I honestly think we have most of what we need already on the team, we just lack a first line. Right now I see our forwards for the future as

XXX-XXX-Anisimov
Dubinsky-Johansen-Atkinson
Foligno-Jenner-Calvert
Dorse-Chaput-Boll

To me we have a lot of good players, and our second and third lines are scoring lines that can play a two way game. Honestly one star that can take over a game and we would have the depth to roll lines like say Boston or Pitt. We have a good team, we just don't have the top end talent to carry our team when we make mistakes or any guys who can take over a game (Johansen may still develop into one). I think we need to focus on top 3 players not simply top 6 guys. As you said no pick is a "lock" to be a star or top line player, but the probability is higher the higher you go in the draft (especially now with the improved scouting of Europe and Russia), I hate to use "quality over quantity" given that our 4 picks are in the top 40, but I would prefer 2 with a higher likelihood of becoming stars.
I agree.

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Old
03-14-2013, 07:47 PM
  #187
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Question for the day:

Let's ASSUME (very important part of this) that the Jackets wind up with the 10th pick and one of the top 4 AGREE (another key point) to a deal what would you give up in terms of picks and prospects for one of the top 4 picks?
Way to stir the pot up

I wouldn't give up a ton, to be honest. If the right deal were available (one of those teams having a big interest in one of our prospects), then possibly ... say, the 10th pick and David Savard, I wouldn't consider that too high of a price. But, if it means giving up one of our other first rounders, or a top guy like Boone Jenner, or a decent roster player, then I don't do it. I think there is plenty of talent to be found all throughout this draft.

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Old
03-14-2013, 08:05 PM
  #188
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Way to stir the pot up

I wouldn't give up a ton, to be honest. If the right deal were available (one of those teams having a big interest in one of our prospects), then possibly ... say, the 10th pick and David Savard, I wouldn't consider that too high of a price. But, if it means giving up one of our other first rounders, or a top guy like Boone Jenner, or a decent roster player, then I don't do it. I think there is plenty of talent to be found all throughout this draft.
Do you really think this is a 2003 draft? I vacillate between believing that there are 1st line players available down to ~#20 overall, and that there are only a few 1st line guys.

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03-14-2013, 08:22 PM
  #189
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Do you really think this is a 2003 draft? I vacillate between believing that there are 1st line players available down to ~#20 overall, and that there are only a few 1st line guys.
I think we'll know for sure in 2015 or 16. Its always a crap shoot but most things I've read say its a pretty good pool.

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03-14-2013, 08:27 PM
  #190
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Do you really think this is a 2003 draft? I vacillate between believing that there are 1st line players available down to ~#20 overall, and that there are only a few 1st line guys.
No, I don't think there will be such an abundance of elite level players. But, I do think that it's entirely possible - especially with the right scouting and development system in place - to come away with first line players in that range.

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03-14-2013, 08:37 PM
  #191
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I said this on a game day thread:

If you really want the # 1 pick, we really need to get a new goalie, because BOB will not allow us to get the # 1 pick, he is too good

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03-14-2013, 08:45 PM
  #192
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I said this on a game day thread:

If you really want the # 1 pick, we really need to get a new goalie, because BOB will not allow us to get the # 1 pick, he is too good
lol, very true. That he is one of the biggest reasons I'm optimistic for the future. A kid with the right attitude, who puts in the work. He seems to continue improving and our D is only going to get better as it gets older.

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03-14-2013, 08:52 PM
  #193
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Ive lost all hope for #1 overall. Now hoping for to p5

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03-14-2013, 09:18 PM
  #194
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Ive lost all hope for #1 overall. Now hoping for to p5
Honestly, if the draft is as deep as what everyone is saying, I'm not all that worried about it. We'll draft where we draft and we need to let the guys do their jobs.

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03-15-2013, 12:40 AM
  #195
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It has definitely helped Barkov, in many ways. Nieminen has seemed like good mentor for him.

But it's Barkov who has been the better player. And it was like that when Jannik Hansen was the other winger. And other NHLers were playing against him.
Barkov was better even than Hansen? That's encouraging. What is his downside then? Second line Center?

Barkov or Lindholm are great fits for the Jackets because they both stand a good chance of becoming top line centers.

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03-15-2013, 04:48 AM
  #196
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Barkov was better even than Hansen? That's encouraging. What is his downside then? Second line Center?

Barkov or Lindholm are great fits for the Jackets because they both stand a good chance of becoming top line centers.
Second line C with excellent, near Selke level D and 50-60 points. That's what I see him at least becoming unless injuries or something ruin he's career.

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03-15-2013, 05:37 AM
  #197
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Today we would pick 9 or 10. Rangers 12 or 13. Course either could pick 1 too.

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03-15-2013, 07:23 AM
  #198
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Well, sliding in the rankings. And I don't know exactly why. His recent back injury doesn't seem serious. He played today in Brynäs' second playoff game.

I don't mind if he does slide, because Lindholm would be perfect for the Jackets. He's the playmaking center they need and has an intensity to his game that fits with current game plan.
To be honest, I'm not sure how much these scouting services follow swedish hockey. The ISS had Burakowsky ahead of Lindholm this fall, I really can't take them seriously after that. Last year it was quite obvious for everyone actually watching Allsvenskan that H. Lindholm would be picked ahead or very close to Forsberg, yet they had Forsberg at #2 and Lindholm at #19 in their final rankings. They also ranked Klefbom way ahead of Brodin in 2011 when it was very obvious Brodin was the better player.

Lindholm and Wennberg are by far the best Swedes this year. Right now I think a guy like Robert Hägg would fall to the middle of the second round, he is not good in his own zone and his skating is overrated. Burakowsky is the most difficult guy to project, he has top 10 skill but his season has been worse than expected, the U18 WC could make him a big riser/faller in the draft. De la Rose is a late first/early second rounder, some teams will like him much more than other teams will.

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03-15-2013, 04:31 PM
  #199
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ISS top30 for F an D and top 10 for G.

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03-15-2013, 07:09 PM
  #200
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Lazar at 11? Wow... and I'm a big Lazar fan...

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