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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

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Old
03-02-2013, 03:03 PM
  #451
Johnny Engine
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Not a fan of his but I'm going with a guy who fits my defense this year because of his hitting ability and because he can play on the PP for me. (can replace Corbeau and although Phaneuf hits the net once in a blue moon, when he does he has a hard shot!)

He occasionally has a brainfart defensively when he is too aggressive but I have a goaltender and a good stay at home guy to cover that up for me:

D, Dion Phaneuf

Can someone pm the next for me please I'm really busy.
This has to be the most shining example of how we treat modern players. You just drafted him, how will your opposing GMs treat the poor guy?

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03-02-2013, 03:08 PM
  #452
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Of course you wouldn't. You're trying to pump up the great Henrik Sedin, hero of all playoffs.
So Abels playoffs are an advatage for him?? Where are you getting at, there is no distinct advantage between them when it comes to playoffs.

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03-02-2013, 03:14 PM
  #453
TheDevilMadeMe
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Swamp Devils pick

Jerry Toppazzini, RW

Goals: 12th, 19th
Assists: 12th, 17th, 19th
Points: 18th, 20th, 20th

"3rd Team All Star" in 1957 behind Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard, ahead of healthy Andy Bathgate

Played in the 1955, 1958, and 1959 All Star games, all on merit.

Most Shorthanded points 1952-53 to 1966-67 (via overpass):

Player GP SHG SHA SHP
Gordie Howe 1030 19 15 34
Eric Nesterenko 894 22 10 32
Jerry Toppazzini 783 19 13 32
Don Marshall 862 16 13 29
Bob Pulford 727 23 5 28
XXX 964 14 12 26
Alex Delvecchio 1024 16 9 25
Red Kelly 990 12 10 22
Fleming Mackell 483 10 8 18
Allan Stanley 901 2 14 16
George Armstrong 942 7 9 16
Bobby Hull 674 10 5 15
Norm Ullman 817 6 9 15
Dave Keon 472 9 5 14
Tim Horton 978 3 11 14

Hall of Fame referee Red Storey called Toppazzini the best penalty killer he ever saw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Campbell
An industrious checker and penalty killer who wore his NHL career on his face, Jerry Toppazzini never won a Stanley Cup.
...
Toppazzini made it to the Stanley Cup final twice with the Boston Bruins, but it was right in the middle of the Montreal Canadiens run of five straight titles. He regularly drew the assignment of checking guys like Rocket Richard and Gordie Howe and earned most of his facial road map when Ted Lindsay clubbed him across the face, breaking both orbital bones and his nose.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/jerry-t...0341--nhl.html

Sounds like Toppazzini would sometimes switch to LW to shadow Howe or Richard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
Topper was a popular, grinding third liner known for his enthusiastic forechecking, the type of lunch pail player Boston fans love. He was a consistent 15 goal, 45/50 point threat back in the day. He was a leader in the dressing room, too, known for his incessant chattering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
Topper earned his stripes as a hard-driving winger who could kill penalties and score his share of goals. In 1957-58, he set, what was at the time, an NHL record, scoring 7 short-handed goals in one season.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-02-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Old
03-02-2013, 03:17 PM
  #454
Jafar
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So Abels playoffs are an advatage for him?? Where are you getting at, there is no distinct advantage between them when it comes to playoffs.
Even though Sedin scored some points in his playoff run , we all know he didn't play that well.Not a big fan of using +/- statistics , but when you look at his -11 compared to the rest of the Vancouver squad on top of the eye-witness factor , it does raise some questions about his play in the playoffs.

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03-02-2013, 03:19 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So Abels playoffs are an advatage for him?? Where are you getting at, there is no distinct advantage between them when it comes to playoffs.
Let's see, on one hand, we have Sid Abel who captained two teams to a Cup, and was crediting with rallying Detroit in the 1950 playoffs after Gordie Howe's injury (while leading them in goals over the course of those playoffs). Oh and he won a third Cup in 1943, finishing 1 point off the leader in playoff points that year.

On the other hand, we have Henrik Sedin.

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03-02-2013, 03:20 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Even though Sedin scored some points in his playoff run , we all know he didn't play that well.Not a big fan of using +/- statistics , but when you look at his -11 compared to the rest of the Vancouver squad on top of the eye-witness factor , it does raise some questions about his play in the playoffs.
Hey schaultsquared...here's another example of what I was talking about... now we can use +/- to discredit a player.

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03-02-2013, 03:23 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Hey schaultsquared...here's another example of what I was talking about... now we can use +/- to discredit a player.
I made sure to put my use of +/- statistic within the context of that run.Henrik Sedin had the 2nd worst +/- ratio of the entire Vancouver Canucks despite scoring over 20 pts.

Anybody with a pair of eyes knew Kesler was the main guy on that squad and the Sedins , despite scoring points , weren't playing very well.

Or are you trying to sell Sedin based on his numbers as some kind of playoff hero? unfortunately for you we all saw him play , and what we saw is nothing too glorious.

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03-02-2013, 03:25 PM
  #458
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plus/minus...the most pointless stat in hockey.

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Old
03-02-2013, 03:25 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Let's see, on one hand, we have Sid Abel who captained two teams to a Cup, and was crediting with rallying Detroit in the 1950 playoffs after Gordie Howe's injury (while leading them in goals over the course of those playoffs). Oh and he won a third Cup in 1943, finishing 1 point off the leader in playoff points that year.

On the other hand, we have Henrik Sedin.
Who led his team to game 7 of the Stanley cup finals?

Who has obviously played with a weaker team compared to Abel throughout his career, the fact that you need to split hairs like their playoffs clearly shows that I am right in saying there is not that much at all seperating them offensively.

Now we factor in Henrik will be playing with Ted Lindsay and Charlie Conacher...Side Abel will be playing the wing(which you will also have to get at later) with Phil Esposito and George Armstrong.

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03-02-2013, 03:25 PM
  #460
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Given that Jafar bent over backwards to explain his caveats, and that the usual problems with low +/- have to do with bad teams and defensive roles (neither of which apply to sedin), I don't see what you're complaining about.

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Old
03-02-2013, 03:26 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
plus/minus...the most pointless stat in hockey.
Mark Fraser was and I don't know who still is leading the league in plus minus... you took the words right out of my mouth.

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Old
03-02-2013, 03:28 PM
  #462
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Looking to move up to an immediate pick from #475, I can package that with #486 + more. PM me.

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Old
03-02-2013, 03:29 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Given that Jafar bent over backwards to explain his caveats, and that the usual problems with low +/- have to do with bad teams and defensive roles (neither of which apply to sedin), I don't see what you're complaining about.
Let's start talking about plus minus then...how does Espo look in New York. Pretty big waste of time to discuss such a meaningless stat.

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03-02-2013, 03:29 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
plus/minus...the most pointless stat in hockey.
It's a pointless stat in general but that doesn't mean we can't use it if we put it into context.Both Sedins had the 2nd and 3rd worst +/- numbers of the entire Vancouver Canucks.Kesler had a 0 and Henrik Sedin had a -11.In 20 something games , I don't think the statistic is pointless.

Everybody knows xxxx was the man and is mostly responsible for Vancouver going that far.The Sedins did score some points , but it seems they were scored on big time as well.

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03-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #465
monster_bertuzzi
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
It's pointless stat in general but that doesn't mean we can't use it if we put it into context.Both Sedins had the 2nd and 3rd worst +/- numbers of the entire Vancouver Canucks.Kesler had a 0 and Henrik Sedin had a -11.In 20 something games , I don't think the statistic is pointless to use.
The Sedin didn't play well in the final , but they were very solid first 3 rounds.

edit: and isn't K****r undrafted?

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03-02-2013, 03:33 PM
  #466
markrander87
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
It's a pointless stat in general but that doesn't mean we can't use it if we put it into context.Both Sedins had the 2nd and 3rd worst +/- numbers of the entire Vancouver Canucks.Kesler had a 0 and Henrik Sedin had a -11.In 20 something games , I don't think the statistic is pointless.

Everybody knows xxxx was the man and is mostly responsible for Vancouver going that far.The Sedins did score some points , but it seems they were scored on big time as well.
And now he is 4th among active players in career plus minus( behind Jagr, Datsyuk and Elias). If you want to use that stat against him then you have to take it on the other chin as well, can you put that one into context?

Oh that's right, he's been the driving force behind an elite team for the past 7-8 years...but that doesn't matter!!!

I'd much rather have some substantial evidence proving this instead, like a newspaper article from Thunder Bay Ontario in 1947 from some journalist we know nothing about..

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03-02-2013, 03:35 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
And now he is 4th among active players in career plus minus( behind Jagr, Datsyuk and Elias). If you want to use that stat against him then you have to take it on the other chin as well, can you put that one into context?
No , the burden is on you to put his entire career +/- stats into context if you want to sell him with it.I had the burden to put his playoff run +/- stats into context and I did it.The conversation was about playoff.Did your brain already forgot that little detail?

Basically , I did my job and you didn't , which isn't surprising.

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03-02-2013, 03:38 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
No , the burden is on you to put his entire career +/- stats into context if you want to sell him with it.I had the burden to put his playoff run +/- stats into context and I did it.The conversation was about playoff.Did your brain already forgot that little detail?

Basically , I did my job and you didn't , which isn't surprising.
..you must have skimmed over this part...

Quote:
Oh that's right, he's been the driving force behind an elite team for the past 7-8 years.


You can PM, i'd love to carry on the conversation and not clutter up the draft board (any more then what it already is)

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Old
03-02-2013, 03:41 PM
  #469
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..you must have skimmed over this part...

Oh that's right, he's been the driving force behind an elite team for the past 7-8 years.
No team is elite until it wins a stanley cup in my opinion.But that is completely beside the point anyway , since the conversation weren't about Sedin's regular season career but about playoffs.I only indicated that Sedin had the 2nd worst +/- of his entire squad (and his brother had the 3rd worst) during the relevant playoff run of his career.

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03-02-2013, 03:43 PM
  #470
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You can PM, i'd love to carry on the conversation and not clutter up the draft board (any more then what it already is)
Why should I PM you when I know our ''private'' messaging will be seen by others?

And why should I take ''cluttering up the draft board'' on my shoulders when you were the one throwing this out of nowhere Sedin vs Abel debate in the thread hoping it sticks in your favor? You wanted attention there you got it.

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03-02-2013, 03:47 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
This has to be the most shining example of how we treat modern players. You just drafted him, how will your opposing GMs treat the poor guy?
Acknowledging it now so they won't have to bother later!

He eats minutes, has a great all star record from earlier in his career and does have some positives I needed though.

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03-02-2013, 04:42 PM
  #472
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Thanks for making my pick. Baltimore selects at Pick 464 Left Winger JP Parise



Parise completes a defensive 3rd line for the Blades who's players may chip in offensively late in games. Parise wasn't the best scorer but he gave it his all every game.

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03-02-2013, 04:53 PM
  #473
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This has to be the most shining example of how we treat modern players. You just drafted him, how will your opposing GMs treat the poor guy?
Yeah...I think the bias against imperfect modern players is waning, but it's not yet dead. I think Phaneuf is a pretty good bottom-pairing defenseman, but I'm sure he'll draw his share of fire.

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03-02-2013, 04:56 PM
  #474
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Parise completes a good 2 way 3rd line for the Blades. Parise wasn't the best scorer but he gave it his all every game.
Honestly tony, I don't really consider Parise - Sutter - Graham to be a two-way line. Sutter is a good two-way 3rd liner, for sure, but the wingers have very limited offensive skills.

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03-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #475
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For about 24 hrs this place was so dead you could here the crickets chirping, (even now in the tail of winter). I go to my skate, do some errands and I come back to a slew of roaring haughty pontifications....gawd I love this place!

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