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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

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Old
03-07-2013, 11:32 AM
  #801
Hawkman
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Here's a couple interesting lists.

"Allan Muir of Sports Illustrated listed the top 10 power forwards of all time, somehow omitting Mark Messier, Gordie Howe and Rocket Richard." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nhl...-forwards/#all

This is Pelletier's "top ten defensemen of all time includes the following nine players, ranked in no particular order:

Bobby Orr
Ray Bourque
Nicklas Lidstrom
Doug Harvey
Denis Potvin
Paul Coffey
Brad Park
Red Kelly
Eddie Shore
King Clancy" http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/

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Old
03-07-2013, 11:33 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I live in Germany. It's 16:00 here right now. A better question would be: do I work?
Ah, makes sense....is the Sturm in Sturminator for Marco?

BTW......I lived briefly in Germany as a kid, (my dad was in the USAF), and I have a sister who was born there.

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Old
03-07-2013, 11:55 AM
  #803
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Ah, makes sense....is the Sturm in Sturminator for Marco?
Yep. He was my favorite young player way back in the day when I first chose an HFBoards username. Just for a little context, I am not actually a German, and was living in the Bay Area at the time, and Marco was still a Shark. My Patrick Marleau jersey has a 14 on the back instead of a 12; I'm old-school like that.

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Old
03-07-2013, 12:00 PM
  #804
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The Whalers feel like drafting Robert Svehla, D.



Last edited by MadArcand: 03-07-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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Old
03-07-2013, 12:15 PM
  #805
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Sorry for the wait on the pick guys.

Rod Seiling, D

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Old
03-07-2013, 12:17 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
The Whalers feel like drafting Robert Svehla, D
The Mercurys feel like drafting D Juri Bubla.



Quote:
Jiri Bubla was a legendary defenseman in his native Czechoslovakia during the 1970's and 80's. Bubla, whose name literally translates into "Bubble," represented his country 230 times, scoring 37 goals. He won three world championships and an Olympic silver medal was voted as the best defenseman in the world championships 1979.

He's one of only a few Czechs to have won the world championship title three times (1972, 1976, and 1977). Jiri played most of his career in CHZ Litvinov where he played between 1959-69 and 19 71-79. His other stints were in Dukla Jihlava (1969-71), Sparta Praha (1979-81) and, as North American fans likely remember him, with the NHL Vancouver Canucks (1981-86).

When Jiri played in Litvinov much of the attention was on him and forward Ivan Hlinka. They were the stars of their club team and had a remarkably similar playing career. They were born one day apart. They both became world champions on three occasions. They both started playing in the Litvinov system in 1959. They both played in two Olympics. They both played in the 1976 Canada Cup. And they both played for Vancouver Canucks in the early 1980's. Even in the 1982-83 O-Pee-Chee cards they were inseparable as Ivan Hlinka's card has Bubla's photo on it.
http://canuckslegends.blogspot.com/2...iri-bubla.html

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Old
03-07-2013, 12:18 PM
  #807
EagleBelfour
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmm View Post
Here's a couple interesting lists.

"Allan Muir of Sports Illustrated listed the top 10 power forwards of all time, somehow omitting Mark Messier, Gordie Howe and Rocket Richard." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nhl...-forwards/#all http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/
From the article:

Quote:
"A forward who is big and strong, equally capable of playing physically or scoring goals and would most likely have high totals in both points and penalties. It is usually used in reference to a forward who is physically large, with the toughness to dig the puck out of the corners, possesses offensive instincts...and willingly engages in fights when required."

It's not perfect, but it's close to what I'm thinking. That's why you won't see Mark Messier on this list -- he's more of a powerful forward than a power forward by my definition.

Same thing with Gordie Howe.

I like my power forwards to bring a bit more menace to the table. That's a quality inherent in each of these picks.
So Mark Messier, Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe didn't bring enough ''menace'' in their game, but Milan Lucic & Jarome Iginla did?


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 03-07-2013 at 01:24 PM.
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Old
03-07-2013, 01:20 PM
  #808
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XXX Mistake!
Hey, I've seen that movie. That the one with George's Vagina in it, right?

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:40 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
So Mark Messier, Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe didn't bring enough ''menace'' in their game, but Milan Lucic & Jarome Iginla did?
Well, to be honest, I wouldn't consider Richard a power forward by that definition. Though I think using PIMs as one of the criteria is retarded, but I digress. Richard was only really menacing when he was swinging his stick. Messier...eh, I dunno. I think Mess was pretty menacing, but he wasn't much of a fighter. Howe meets every criteria, though, and only didn't fight much later in his career because nobody wanted to tangle with him. I don't have any idea what the writer was thinking leaving Howe off that list. He should be #1, easily.

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03-07-2013, 01:42 PM
  #810
Rob Scuderi
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Yeah, cause staying healthy and productive was just not fair!

(and yes I get that Forsberg had a higher peak in most people's opinion, but what happened to career value?)
You're the only person (facetiously) saying 10 years isn't worth looking at. I said I'd like to see a shorter one too to be more fair to "earliest era NHLers and Crosby and Malkin." Nothing about invalidating what Francis did accomplish or doing a kindness to the injury-prone players.

Quote:
Or a system for evaluating the top 7 seasons only of a player's career across eras.

I thought the ATD was a career thing?
"Across eras" is why I questioned 10 years. That's not saying 10 years shouldn't be looked at, or that any of these posts are a hard and fast look at ATD value.

It's just an attempt to measure their on paper offensive value and can be done with any number of benchmarks. You're talking about the cons of using a lower number, but each number of seasons will have pros and cons and aren't meant to supersede the other. Look at the one you take most seriously and go with it - you certainly can't be wrong. Other people may not agree and look at a different one or none at all if they don't care for the system.

I question the effectiveness of 10 seasons going back to players in the 30s, but its probably the best for post-expansion stars, and does a good job of dinging the injury prone guys.

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:44 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Well, to be honest, I wouldn't consider Richard a power forward by that definition. Though I think using PIMs as one of the criteria is retarded, but I digress. Richard was only really menacing when he was swinging his stick. Messier...eh, I dunno. I think Mess was pretty menacing, but he wasn't much of a fighter. Howe meets every criteria, though, and only didn't fight much later in his career because nobody wanted to tangle with him. I don't have any idea what the writer was thinking leaving Howe off that list. He should be #1, easily.
Richard was a trained boxer and one of the best fighters in the league, so he was definitely menacing when he wasn't swinging his stick. Theres a reason it was a big deal when Howe beat him in a fight.

Richard wasn't much of a hitter like Messier or Howe though

That writer apparently started following hockey sometime after 1995...

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:53 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Richard was a trained boxer and one of the best fighters in the league, so he was definitely menacing when he wasn't swinging his stick. Theres a reason it was a big deal when Howe beat him in a fight.

Richard wasn't much of a hitter like Messier or Howe though

That writer apparently started following hockey sometime after 1995...
Yeah I don't get why these lists are called all-time when they're really the past 20-30 years. He didn't even make a token mention of a player from before expansion.

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Old
03-07-2013, 02:01 PM
  #813
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The Firebirds are proud to round our our defense with Kimmo Timonen


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Old
03-07-2013, 02:04 PM
  #814
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Im originally from Helsingborg, tho I live far from there now. If you live in eastern or southern germany then its far from me. But if Im in Helsingborg I can be in hamburg within liek 3 hours
I live about 100 km north of Frankfurt. Driving at German speeds, it's about four hours from Hamburg to chez moi. If you're ever in the neighborhood, my door is open.

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Old
03-07-2013, 02:07 PM
  #815
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The Firebirds are proud to round our our defense with Kimmo Timonen

That's a hell of a #6 defenseman, IMO.

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Old
03-07-2013, 02:08 PM
  #816
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Richard was a trained boxer and one of the best fighters in the league, so he was definitely menacing when he wasn't swinging his stick.
Was he really? Shows what I know.

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Old
03-07-2013, 02:11 PM
  #817
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That's a hell of a #6 defenseman, IMO.
Yup not bad for a (relative) midget.

Lots of experience on both special teams.

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Old
03-07-2013, 02:13 PM
  #818
TheDevilMadeMe
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Timonen could easily be a #5. His only weakness is lack of size, and it's easy to find a big dude to put next to him.

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Old
03-07-2013, 02:15 PM
  #819
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Timonen could easily be a #5. His only weakness is lack of size, and it's easy to find a big dude to put next to him.
I know that is what we do around here, and I did it too with Ludwig/Boyle, but it doesn't eliminate the weakness - just mitigate it.

Although some defensemen can be very effective without using their size anyways.

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Old
03-07-2013, 02:24 PM
  #820
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Having watched almost every game of Timonen's tenure as a Flyer I thought he was great value here. Despite his size he still does a great job on the penalty kill. His stick work and gap control is simply amazing. As others have said he can play in any situation on the ice. On the Powerplay he has played in many different systems, some where he is the main QB, others where he is a secondary option.

Even though Timonen isn't physical he's still tough IMO. The guy hardy misses a game and blocks a ton of shots and absorbs some big hits even in his later years. Very happy to have Kimmo on the team.

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03-07-2013, 03:11 PM
  #821
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Ken Daneyko - Kimmo Timonen

Do we really need to worry about Timonens lack of physical play, which I don't even agree with?

Timonen is not Scott Stevens but he isnt Phil Housley either.

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Old
03-07-2013, 03:27 PM
  #822
Rob Scuderi
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Here's the weighted VsX scores for best 7 years

1. Gretzky 155.9
2. Esposito 125.0
3. Lemieux 121.8
4. Beliveau 109.8
5. Mikita 109.6
6. Morenz 106.8
7. Cowley 105.3
8. Dionne 104.1
9. Sakic 99.1
10. Lach 97.0

11. Bentley 96.4
12. Boucher 95.9
13. Trottier 94.9
14. Thornton 94.6
15. Yzerman 94.4
16. Apps 94.2
17. Forsberg 91.7
18. Stewart 91.1
19. Oates 90.8
20. Barry 90.6

21. Messier 90.2
22. Ullman 89.5
23. Schmidt 89.3
24. Stastny 89.0
25. Ratelle 88.8
26. Clarke 88.5
27. Francis 88.3
28. Richard 87.5
29. Hawerchuk 86.6
30. Savard 86.4

31. Lindros 86.3
32. Delvecchio 85.5
33. Sittler 85.2
34. Perreault 85.2
35. Crosby 84.0
36. undrafted 83.6
37. Gilmour 83.2
38. Sedin 82.9
39. Sundin 82.7
40. Turgeon 82.6

41. Kennedy 82.4
42. Modano 82.1
42. Roenick 82.0
44. Fedorov 82.0
45. Nicholls 81.7
46. Weiland 81.3
47. H. Smith 79.9
48. Lafontaine 79.8
49. Datsyuk 79.7
50. Weight 79.5

51. Watson 79.1
52. B. Richards 79.1
53. Lecavalier 78.2
54. Federko 77.8
55. McKenney 76.5
56. Lemaire 76.5
57. Goyette 76.0
58. Malkin 75.9
59. Keon 73.4
60. Brind'Amour 73.4

61. Macleish 73.2
62. P. Mahovlich 71.7
63. Niewendyk 70.9
64. B. Smith 69.6
65. Muller 65.4

I used the percentages Dreakmur gave me for Morenz, but haven't looked at any of the other pre-merger guys. Hooley Smith, for example, could pick up another score higher than his best 7 from after 1927. Cowley's best season (1941, not a war year) gives him a score of 140.9.


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 03-07-2013 at 05:39 PM.
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Old
03-07-2013, 03:34 PM
  #823
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Timonen's size is hardly a problem for him in today's NHL. In an all time context it's something to worry a little about, but not too much. Of all players drafted in this draft, I've probably seen the second most of him behind another Flyer that will be drafted. He's not afraid to go into the corners, and relies on exceptional positioning, stickwork, and putting himself between the attacker and the net to make up for his smaller size. He's an extremely smart, cerebral defender. Almost every game, he blocks a shot with his foot, winces, looks like he's done for the game, and then he's back out on the ice his next shift. His ability to play through pain is incredible. One of the more underrated players of the last 10 years in the NHL if you ask me. Over 40 adjusted points in his last 10 years in the NHL(and it would probably be 11 with this season if it was a full season).

Next to Ken Daneyko, he'll have no problems.

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03-07-2013, 03:42 PM
  #824
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Timmonen was definitely on my radar.

Murray Oliver, C.

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Old
03-07-2013, 03:46 PM
  #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I used the percentages Dreakmur gave me for Morenz, but haven't looked at any of the other pre-merger guys. Hooley Smith, for example, could pick up another score higher than his best 7 from after 1927. Cowley's best season (1941, not a war year) gives him a score of 140.9.
Thank you for putting that together. It's hard to know what to make of the pre-consolidation scores for Morenz, though I don't think we should just take them at face value, and I would have to look at Dreak's system in greater detail to be sure of his consolidated numbers. At any rate, it's only one of Howie's top-7 seasons, so mostly academic.

The top-7 list looks pretty tight, with the exception of 1940's/wartime stars Cowley, Lach and Bentley, who look pretty seriously overrated here. Apps and Schmidt both missed a number of peak seasons to the war (Schmidt more than Apps), so it's hard to call them overrated by this metric. Maybe the wartime guys will just always have to schlep an asterisk around? It would likely be more trouble than it's worth to try to agree on a normalized metric for judging their performances, and personally I just don't give much of a **** about these players. Interesting that Esposito remains ahead of Lemieux, though there are obviously "circumstances" in this case.

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