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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-28-2013, 08:40 AM
  #201
Sturminator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Eskimos picks a hardworking right winger:



Bob Nystrom, RW
I guess this is my year to talk about the old Islanders, a subject I've pretty much avoided in the past. There are many more skilled players still available, but Bob Nystrom was all guts and elbows, and was an important veteran leader on that dynasty team who had been there right from the very beginning as an expansion team player. Bob Nystrom is the only non-Hall of Famer from that dynasty team to have his number retired: that's how much he meant to the Islanders.

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02-28-2013, 09:02 AM
  #202
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Montreal select Tony Amonte , RW



BIO HERE

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02-28-2013, 09:21 AM
  #203
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HC Donbass selects Adam Graves, LW.

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02-28-2013, 09:32 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Not to get us a way from the annual Turgeon ****storm, but comments on two other guys:

1) Albert Leduc. He's one of the main reasons I'm skeptical of what Sturminator at least once called "the increasing decadence of ATD bios" - long lines of glowing quotes about a player. I completely bought Leaf Forever's Leduc bio from ATD12 and decided he would be an excellent #5 the follpwing draft. Then sometime during the ATD finals (with Leduc still as my #5), Joe Pelletier came out with a new bio of Leduc that basically said that his "Battleship" nickname was because it took him a long time to get up to speed and couldn't really stop, so he crashed around into everything, whether it be players, boards, whatever. Then later, information was presented that Leduc spent most of his career as a spare which is where all the quotes about the crowd cheering when he came onto the ice came from. I'm not sure where Leduc should be drafted, but I doubt it should be here.
While researching players I've noticed that Pelletier's bios at times contradict other reports that I gather. Because his site is so ubiqutous I tend to use him as a starting reference point, not gospel. While he may have poo-pooed Leduc's skill set, he also is quoted, "He was a big part of Montreal's back to back Stanley Cup championships in 1930 and 1931." Take what you want from this....

I found three articles where he was referred to as a "relief" defenseman.....and in one he was named a star of the game for producing a goal in an "up and down affair"....and the other:
Montreal Gazette 3/13/30:
- Defensively the Canadiens are hard to beat. Mantha and XXXXX form a defensive pard as hard to pass as any in the league while Leduc and XXXXXXXXX are not far behind.

A third referred to him as "another husky checker".

While it appears he may have been a "relief" for some of his career in Montreal, the numbers he put up in that era couldn't possibly have come from vastly reduced minutes played that is implied by other folks. In other words, a 2nd pairing with adequate minutes and good numbers in a 6 team league, is nothing to scoff at.

[side note, in a Boston Bruins history tome come this: "Former NHL defenseman Albert 'Battlesip' Leduc was coaching Proividence at the time is credited with uniting Dumart with Schmidt and Bauer named them the 'Sauerkraut' Line.]

Providence News 1/28/29:
- Albert "Battleship" Leduc, so named from the powerful nature of his skating, a partner of Mantha on the Canadiens defense, ranks a close second to his teammate. Leduc ploughed through for 51 shots on opposing goalers, which produced 5 goals for an average of .98.

Border Cities Star 4/2/30:
- Albert Battleship Leduc and Sylvio Mantha, always dangerous opponents of the now tottering champions [Boston Bruins], were the big guns in the attack of the red shirted French. In the dying moments of the third with four Bruins up the ice, Leduc broke away from the defense on the rush that bought the third goal. His pass to Pete Lepine beat a lone Boston defenseman and Pete's whipping low drive to the far side completed the total of the the Canadiens.

Montreal Gazette 11/24/33:
- Robust hard-hitting Albert Leduc, wearing his Senator uniform with great gusto, was the central figure in last night's struggle. Making his first local appearance in anything but a Canadien sweater. Albert set out to prove that he works earnstly for Ottawa as he did for the Canadiens, and his bumping duels with everyone in sight. The fever caught all the other players with the result that the three periods produced plenty of close, hard-checking hockey, a minimum of open play and a great display of spirit.

Battleship Leduc played no favorites in forcing his attentions on his former teammates. He made strenuous efforts to get any man in sight. That's the way with Albert. he always was an earnest chap in anything he tackled. Albert received a sizeable[sic] ovation on his first appearance.

Montreal Gazette 11/20/62 (In a feature 'Half A Century of Hockey: Who Was The Greatest?'): :
- There was Albert "Battleship" Leduc–a typical Habitant. Of a highly excitable temperment, he made all his moves at top speed. He could score on his lone end-to-end rushs, but more than anything else, he could hand out a solid bodycheck, and that, in its day, was the most important attribute of any defenceman.

Montreal Gazette 12/5/30:
- The Flying Frenchmen came right back with two tallies in a row to wrest the lead. Both were solo efforts. The spectacular Albert "Battleship" Leduc steamed down centre, and crashed through the Ranger defence for the first.....

Montreal Gazette 4/15/31:
- Joseph Albert Leduc, otherwise known as "Battleship" Leduc is one of the most colorful figures in all hockey. Besides being a sturdy and effective defenceman, "Albair" is a scoring threat of considerable ability, and his steaming rush down the ice is sometimes the "piece de resistance" of an otherwise dull game. His legs working like pistions, Albert dashes down and swerves at no defence. The other guard combination that Albert has backed up before has not yet been evolved and he dives headlong into the opposition when he reaches it. Most of the time he barges through and when he does he is deft with a shot or a pass.

He is a jocular nature, one of the most feared, and yet the most liked defenceman in the game. On trips with the team he is invariably the life of the party.

Ottawa Citizen 11/9/33:
- As stated before, Albert "Battleship" Leduc was outstanding. The ex-Canadien played a grand game and his stout defensive work, in which he bounced all incoming Habitants with zest and precision, made him a star.

Montreal Gazette 1/15/34:
- Albert Leduc, opposing his former teammates, played his usual boisterous game, smacking into Canadiens with every ounce of his weight and, whenever the Flying Frenchmen would shiw signs of resentment at his robust work, Albert's big grin sprang into being, he slapped his opponents on the back and left them undecided whether to grin back or hit back. The Battleship is probably the most cheerful fellow in the NHL.

Montreal Gazette 3/6/35:
- Albert Leduc, recalled from Quebec again, played his third game with the Canadiens. The Battleship raced in on his old teammate George Hainsworth late in the game looking for a rebound , but George caught the puck high on the chest and held on tto it. Leduc forthwith pushed puck, Hainsworth and all backward into the net. It was the kind of movement that might cause trouble, but not between these two. The both laughed uproariously over the incident.

Tim Burke column / Montreal Gazette 2/17/77 / 'Serge, Larry rate defensive duo':
- .....two stout pairs from the Canadiens' bygone days were Bouchard and Reardon (1940s) and Mantha and Leduc (1930s).

A small feature and cartoon in the Calgary Daily Herald (12/19/30) explains how King Clancy got the scar on his chin. On a rush Clancy came forward, Leduc set himself to upset the attack and clipped/high sticked him under the chin. ("King wouldn't back up from a baby cyclone" is the cartton blurb)....alas, Ottawa scored on the ensuing PP but it ain't the first time that's ever happened.

Border Cities Star 2/20/32:
- The setting of Howie's [Morenz] priize story is Pittsburgh. It was during the season of 1929-30, Pittsburgh, last in the NHL. The Canadiens were there for a game. The Montrealers were quartered at Webster Hall, a famous stopping place for both hockey and baseball teams. The players had been down for a swim at the hotel's large pool. Coming out of the dressing room after the water frolic, Albert "Battleship" Lediuc decided to put on a circus act for his mates. There was a series of rings suspended by long ropes from the ceiling and extending the length of the pool. The idea is swing away from one end of the pool on one ring and swing along the line of ropes and rings to the other end. Nothing to it if you judge your distances and your swings. Unfortunately "Battleship" ran into difficulties when he negotiated the first few rings and reached the center of the pool. He wiggled and twisted and squirmed, but couldn't reach the next ring, nor the one on his left. He finally shouted for assistance. His mates, however, had suddenly gone deaf. At last "Battleship" gave up the struggle, let go and dropped into the pool, clothes and all.

Again, my kind of guy....


Last edited by BubbaBoot: 02-28-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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02-28-2013, 09:41 AM
  #205
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Looking to acquire an upcoming pick.

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Old
02-28-2013, 11:02 AM
  #206
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Now that Amonte and Gaborik have been drafted (interestingly, both earlier than expected...I guess I'm not the only one who works with these numbers), I can publish what are probably the most interesting results thus far of my VsX scoring similarity study. I have been slowly working my way through all of the post-consolidation scoringliners in the ATD (when I say scoringliner, I mean in real life) and putting together a bunch of data to get an idea of how ATD forwards compare to one another from this perspective, which I believe is ultimately a lot more valuable than comparing players based upon their rankings in scoring tables. My data is still far from complete, but it is getting there, and has already yielded quite a bit of fruit. At any rate, without further ado, a comparison of a big group of similar "star" (but not superstar) scorers from expansion to the present using my new VsX benchmarks. The players are arranged in reverse order from when they played their first games in the NHL, with the most recent rookie at the top. I have marked the top-7 seasons in bold. Everyone has a different method, but I tend to look at the top-7 seasons first when making comparisons, and consider everything after the 7th season as a kind of extra, or "longevity", if you will. Your mileage may vary:

Quote:
Henrik Zetterberg VsX:
87, 81, 80, 71, 66, 64, 60

Marian Gaborik VsX:
79, 78, 78, 74, 63, 62, 50

Tony Amonte VsX:
89, 80, 73, 71, 70, 67, 59, 53

Rod Brind'amour VsX:
81, 81, 73, 72, 69, 66, 60, 58

Steve Larmer VsX:
88, 78, 73, 70, 68, 64, 64, 63, 60, 54

Glenn Anderson VsX:
84, 79, 72, 71, 68, 67, 60, 56

Dave Taylor VsX:
83, 78, 76, 72, 68, 57, 55, 51, 50

Jacques Lemaire VsX:
91, 89, 74, 72, 71, 63, 61, 59, 56, 50

Yvan Cournoyer VsX:
81, 76, 73, 73, 71, 71, 69, 58, 57, 57, 50
The players are not perfectly similar and this is not a commentary on their overall value, but they are close enough to one another as scorers that I feel it is appropriate to place them in a single group. This second set of numbers I generated today using the post-expansion benchmarks calculated by bluesfan. I think they are also quite interesting, both in terms of what changes from the above, and in terms of what does not.

Quote:
Henrik Zetterberg VsTop18:
102, 96, 87, 84, 81, 77, 70, 54

Marian Gaborik VsTop18:
95, 93, 92, 85, 73, 67, 59, 58, 51

Tony Amonte VsTop18:
104, 89, 84, 84, 84, 81, 67, 67, 62, 57, 57

Rod Brind'Amour VsTop18:
94, 90, 85, 83, 78, 75, 71, 70, 70, 64, 61, 56

Steve Larmer VsTop18:
96, 84, 83, 83, 81, 76, 75, 72, 67, 65, 58, 57

Glenn Anderson VsTop18:
96, 90, 88, 88, 80, 73, 71, 67, 56, 55, 53, 52

Dave Taylor VsTop18:
103, 100, 91, 88, 81, 62, 62, 61, 61, 55, 50

Jacques Lemaire VsTop18:
104, 101, 91, 91, 81, 79, 75, 75, 64, 59, 55, 51

Yvan Cournoyer VsTop18:
104, 93, 85, 84, 83, 83, 82, 73, 67, 57, 57
The VsTop18 numbers are kinder to 70's players Cournoyer, Lemaire and Taylor, for reasons which are up for debate. I have my own theory as to why that might be so, but I'm interested in input from the rest of the crowd. It's obviously up to each GM to determine if the results of this study are insightful or worthless quackery on my part. They perhaps shed light into a few shadowy corners of the ATD - on a few players who have been persistently over or underrated as a result of canon, prejudice or lack of information. Or perhaps not...

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02-28-2013, 11:26 AM
  #207
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I liked Rod the Bod where I got him but this this makes him look real good

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02-28-2013, 11:28 AM
  #208
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After seeing those numbers, I am REALLY happy I gave Tony Amonte a massive leap last year in pick value.

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02-28-2013, 11:29 AM
  #209
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After seeing those numbers, I am REALLY happy I gave Tony Amonte a massive leap last year in pick value.
Loved that 3rd line of yours last year.

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02-28-2013, 11:31 AM
  #210
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Loved that 3rd line of yours last year.
Damned Canadian bias didn't love my American line....


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02-28-2013, 11:40 AM
  #211
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Damned Canadian bias didn't love my American line....

Eye-catching lack of firepower in the top 6 was the only devastating weakness people probably saw in your team.

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02-28-2013, 11:47 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Eye-catching lack of firepower in the top 6 was the only devastating weakness people probably saw in your team.
Haha oh no my team last year was a mess I was totally kidding. I had the worst top 6 in the entire thing because I was kind of experimenting with making an all defensive team. I made some really bad picks.

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02-28-2013, 12:05 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The VsTop18 numbers are kinder to 70's players Cournoyer, Lemaire and Taylor, for reasons which are up for debate. I have my own theory as to why that might be so, but I'm interested in input from the rest of the crowd. It's obviously up to each GM to determine if the results of this study are insightful or worthless quackery on my part. They perhaps shed light into a few shadowy corners of the ATD - on a few players who have been persistently over or underrated as a result of canon, prejudice or lack of information. Or perhaps not...
I think that is pretty obviously (imo) because the "average 1st liner" metric in the 70s is going to be impacted pretty severely by the lack of team parity.

Which is also the reason I have argued about adjusted stats for some 70s stars looking better than they should because they were playing on the have teams instead of the have nots teams. It creates a lower average in the league which benefits the guys who played on the teams rolling the weaklings.

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02-28-2013, 12:09 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I think that is pretty obviously (imo) because the "average 1st liner" metric in the 70s is going to be impacted pretty severely by the lack of team parity.

Which is also the reason I have argued about adjusted stats for some 70s stars looking better than they should because they were playing on the have teams instead of the have nots teams. It creates a lower average in the league which benefits the guys who played on the teams rolling the weaklings.
That's basically my interpretation, as well: that the "improved" numbers of Cournoyer, Lemaire and Taylor in this case when compared to an average of the top-18 scorers is actually a mirage due to the shallowness of league scoring rather than an indication that the VsX system is unfair to them. But others may disagree...

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02-28-2013, 12:15 PM
  #215
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I liked Rod the Bod where I got him but this this makes him look real good
Considering what Brind'Amour also brings in terms of physicality and defense, he is real good, and has been I think pretty consistently underrated in the ATD.

One thing I think these numbers show quite clearly is how much of a premium we have historically put on team/playoff performance in the ATD. Dynasty players Lemaire, Cournoyer and Anderson are drafted way before others like Gaborik and Amonte who were remarkably similar in terms of production, but toiled on perennial losers. Playoff performances are valuable and are a part of hockey history, but maybe their value has been historically exaggerated in this forum?

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02-28-2013, 12:17 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Considering what Brind'Amour also brings in terms of physicality and defense, he is real good, and has been I think pretty consistently underrated in the ATD.

One thing I think these numbers show quite clearly is how much of a premium we have historically put on team/playoff performance in the ATD. Dynasty players Lemaire, Cournoyer and Anderson are drafted way before others like Gaborik and Amonte who were remarkably similar in terms of production, but toiled on perennial losers. Playoff performances are valuable and are a part of hockey history, but maybe their value has been historically exaggerated in this forum?
One thing for sure -- the long playoff runs give a player a lot more exposure to fans as the number of teams alive dwindles but people are still watching.

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02-28-2013, 12:17 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
That's basically my interpretation, as well: that the "improved" numbers of Cournoyer, Lemaire and Taylor in this case when compared to an average of the top-18 scorers is actually a mirage due to the shallowness of league scoring rather than an indication that the VsX system is unfair to them. But others may disagree...
I completely agree having done the averages. It's quite obvious that the league simply didn't have the depth it had later.

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02-28-2013, 12:27 PM
  #218
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I completely agree having done the averages. It's quite obvious that the league simply didn't have the depth it had later.
What I find interesting is that the relative values among the players hardly change from the 80's to the 90's to the 00's, which suggests that the 80's truly were a Canadian Golden Age™, and that the league was just as deep in stars during the 80's as it was after the European invasion at the end of the Cold War. This had been my belief for a long time before I recently started to doubt that instinct. I still want to see deeper data on this question (seventies' suggestion to track how many players per year reached certain VsX benchmarks, specifically), but I'm inching back towards my previous position about the relative strength of the eras in question.

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02-28-2013, 01:11 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Considering what Brind'Amour also brings in terms of physicality and defense, he is real good, and has been I think pretty consistently underrated in the ATD.

One thing I think these numbers show quite clearly is how much of a premium we have historically put on team/playoff performance in the ATD. Dynasty players Lemaire, Cournoyer and Anderson are drafted way before others like Gaborik and Amonte who were remarkably similar in terms of production, but toiled on perennial losers. Playoff performances are valuable and are a part of hockey history, but maybe their value has been historically exaggerated in this forum?
I think Gaborik and Amonte might be similar in regular season point production to Lemaire, Cournoyer, and Anderson, but I would take the latter three well ahead of them as overall players.

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02-28-2013, 01:12 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I guess this is my year to talk about the old Islanders, a subject I've pretty much avoided in the past. There are many more skilled players still available, but Bob Nystrom was all guts and elbows, and was an important veteran leader on that dynasty team who had been there right from the very beginning as an expansion team player. Bob Nystrom is the only non-Hall of Famer from that dynasty team to have his number retired: that's how much he meant to the Islanders.
Are those Islanders the best real-world team someone might actually be able to piece together in the ATD? Three top-40 skaters + a third-tier goalie ...

Been looking at Nystrom for a couple rounds now and I'm kicking myself that I couldn't ever quite work out the trade I needed to get him and my coach (Irvin). He retired before I got to watch him, but everything I read makes me think he would have fit right in on pretty much any non-Oilers team since.

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02-28-2013, 01:19 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I guess this is my year to talk about the old Islanders, a subject I've pretty much avoided in the past. There are many more skilled players still available, but Bob Nystrom was all guts and elbows, and was an important veteran leader on that dynasty team who had been there right from the very beginning as an expansion team player. Bob Nystrom is the only non-Hall of Famer from that dynasty team to have his number retired: that's how much he meant to the Islanders.
What makes him so special? I'm asking you because you obviously saw him play. He must have been pretty special to get his number retired, but other than that, his resume is pretty unimpressive - never broke 60 points in a high scoring era, only played in one All Star Game, finished 7th in postsason All Star voting the only season he got more than a single vote, never got a single vote for the Selke, never killed penalties.

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02-28-2013, 01:25 PM
  #222
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Are those Islanders the best real-world team someone might actually be able to piece together in the ATD? Three top-40 skaters + a third-tier goalie ...

Been looking at Nystrom for a couple rounds now and I'm kicking myself that I couldn't ever quite work out the trade I needed to get him and my coach (Irvin). He retired before I got to watch him, but everything I read makes me think he would have fit right in on pretty much any non-Oilers team since.
Oilers of the mid 80's, Habs of the late 70's, Leafs of the mid 60's are all arguably better.

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02-28-2013, 01:29 PM
  #223
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Oilers of the mid 80's, Habs of the late 70's, Leafs of the mid 60's are all arguably better.
I think the Oilers and Habs dynasties would be impossible to reunite here. The mid 60s Leafs would be possible but difficult - you'd have to trade your 1st rounder away, get Horton and Mahovlich in the second, then... wait, nevermind, forgot about Red Kelly. I'm not sure if it's possible to get Kelly and the rest of the 60s Leafs, because Kellys' drafted on what he did in Detroit.

The Islanders might be possible - you'd have to trade a crap ton of depth to get 2 first rounders to use on Potvin and Trottier, then cross your fingers that Bossy falls like he did this year. You'd have to really work hard to get Gillies and Tonelli of all people though.

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02-28-2013, 01:32 PM
  #224
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I think Gaborik and Amonte might be similar in regular season point production to Lemaire, Cournoyer, and Anderson, but I would take the latter three well ahead of them as overall players.
In Amonte's case, I'm not so sure. The bio Reen just posted on him has a lot of what I think is new information (and some old stuff I already knew like how he and Mortal_Kombat didn't get along in New York, which led to the infamous trade) on Amonte which roughly corresponds with my recollection of him as a Ranger and then later as a legitimate bad-team star in Chicago, though that's really not my argument to make. Gaborik isn't as well-rounded as the others, sure, but I don't think that can explain a 300 pick gap (or whatever it is) between he and Cournoyer, for example, who wasn't exactly the embodiment of intangibles, himself.

At any rate, offensive production is obviously only one aspect of a player's total value (though for scoringline forwards it is also clearly the most important aspect), and I'm the last person who you're going to catch ignoring intangibles. Be that as it may, I have still found a harder look into the offensive production of NHL scoringliners to be a pretty illuminating exercise.

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02-28-2013, 01:36 PM
  #225
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What does my clock expire? I'm gonna be awhile still at work

JFA87-66-99 is offline  
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