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DAL trades Michael Ryder & 3rd Round Pick to MTL for Erik Cole

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02-27-2013, 12:21 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
It seems though that Dallas does not agree with you they are in a rebuild. The options to them were re-sign Ryder or get a guy like Cole. I actually agree with that decision if those were the only options. I don't want Ryder for 3+ more years. I'd take the lesser of two evils for only 2 years remaining.

I, like you, would have preferred they moved him in a futures trade, but that thought, at least according to quotes, never crossed their mind.
Except the thing with trading for futures is they aren't a proven commodity. If you trade Ryder for a first you still don't have a 100% sure fire player.

I'm not saying Cole isn't a gamble, because he is. He either continues to underproduce or lights it up. You can't please everyone regardless

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02-27-2013, 12:31 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Sir Gary Oak View Post
Except the thing with trading for futures is they aren't a proven commodity. If you trade Ryder for a first you still don't have a 100% sure fire player.

I'm not saying Cole isn't a gamble, because he is. He either continues to underproduce or lights it up. You can't please everyone regardless
"Proven commodities" not getting Dallas in the playoffs is something I can't understand any Dallas fan being OK with.

That's what I feel like you're missing. This trade really doesn't put Dallas in a better position to make the playoffs. At best, Cole starts producing ... which Ryder already was.They're very similar players in terms of offense. Intangibles are nice, and they'll be a welcomed addition, but he's signed to be a productive goal scorer.

I'm not going to be pleased to watch Dallas miss the playoffs, and the consolation price is a guy about to turn 35 years old. Like Heika pointed out, there are too many risks associated with this deal. The payoff could be very good, but the risk is greater. Why is a team like Dallas making those types of decisions? To me, that's not bashing the trade or a team. That's a fair question and a reasonable concern. If the trade works out, it's not a win for Dallas. They played a hunch and got lucky. Good for them, but I'm sick of that tactic considering the team has been spinning it's wheels for 4 years.

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02-27-2013, 12:36 PM
  #278
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One more thing about future assets .... I trust their amateur scouting staff quite a bit more right now than I do their pro scouts. The pro scouts gem right now is Alex Goligoski. I can point to a fully stock prospect system that's paying off right now.

Any decisions I can put in the amateur's scouts hands over the pro scouts is a positive move IMO.

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02-27-2013, 12:47 PM
  #279
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The main problem is we made this move despite not being contenders. This is the kind of trade a contender would make to aid in extending their window one more year. That's why I'm mad this trade went down.

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02-27-2013, 12:51 PM
  #280
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You know ... here's what would have made me more comfortable. Would it have been possible to make the deal closer to the deadline?

We're a few games shy of the halfway point, and no realistic person has any confidence that Dallas will or won't make the playoffs. There's just no way to call it.

The deadline is at the 3/4 mark, and there would have been less risk with the trade because IMO the bottom line is this trade is a mistake with no playoffs and a decent move if they get in (and Cole helps).

I think I've made it clear my primary issue is the risk involved, and it could have been minimized assuming this trade didn't have to be rushed and made in just 10 days.

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02-27-2013, 12:55 PM
  #281
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At the very least Ryder was currently worth a 2nd. If he kept producing the way he was he would have certainly been worth a 1st to someone. If Coles problems are based on being in Montreal they would have continued and if anything his value would have been lower in the future than it was now. Its sort of like we sold low on Ryder and bought high on Cole.

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02-27-2013, 12:57 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
You know ... here's what would have made me more comfortable. Would it have been possible to make the deal closer to the deadline?

We're a few games shy of the halfway point, and no realistic person has any confidence that Dallas will or won't make the playoffs. There's just no way to call it.

The deadline is at the 3/4 mark, and there would have been less risk with the trade because IMO the bottom line is this trade is a mistake with no playoffs and a decent move if they get in (and Cole helps).

I think I've made it clear my primary issue is the risk involved, and it could have been minimized assuming this trade didn't have to be rushed and made in just 10 days.
A good negotiator probalby could have waited til the deadline and made a better deal, even if that person was dead set on getting Erik Cole.

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02-27-2013, 01:02 PM
  #283
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Hi guys, Im a Habs fan. My 2Cents on Cole :

Last year he was our best goalscorers. He had great acceleration and knew what to do to score goals and to make the other teams take penalties. He used to crash the net hard and to pass behind other teams defencemen.

This year, he looked like he was not ready to play. He was probably suprised that the lock out ended, and he didnt look in shape. When the season started he clearly looked like an old man with skates.

It would not be fair to say he hasnt gain confidence/speed in the last couple of games. He started to look like he wanted to play again. He started to skates and bang a little more. Erik Cole, was not playing great, but he was still our forward with the most hits this year.

Maybe your management thought Ryder would not sign with you. And they knew the market was thin this summer, and they prefered to gamble on Cole, then to have nobody to replace Ryder next year.

While, on our side, our management wanted to make a big splash this summer and they wanted Cole off the books going forward. Because I'm sure of one thing, Ryder wont be sign by us this summer.

Personnally? I think the 3rd round pick, was not necessarily, but you know what? Thank you very much! haha
I think they could have re-signed Ryder if they wanted to..but Nieuwy basically said he wasn't sure he did want to..then the opportunity for Cole came along and he took it. The thing is you'd probably have to offer Ryder a four year contract for him to sign in Dallas..or anywhere else. If they were going to re-sign Ryder, they'd probably want it to be for two years which wouldn't work for Ryder. So- now they have someone he sees as a better player that will be signed another two years instead of four. And that $4 mil per season might be less than what Ryder gets in FA.

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02-27-2013, 01:07 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
"Proven commodities" not getting Dallas in the playoffs is something I can't understand any Dallas fan being OK with.

That's what I feel like you're missing. This trade really doesn't put Dallas in a better position to make the playoffs. At best, Cole starts producing ... which Ryder already was.They're very similar players in terms of offense. Intangibles are nice, and they'll be a welcomed addition, but he's signed to be a productive goal scorer.

I'm not going to be pleased to watch Dallas miss the playoffs, and the consolation price is a guy about to turn 35 years old. Like Heika pointed out, there are too many risks associated with this deal. The payoff could be very good, but the risk is greater. Why is a team like Dallas making those types of decisions? To me, that's not bashing the trade or a team. That's a fair question and a reasonable concern. If the trade works out, it's not a win for Dallas. They played a hunch and got lucky. Good for them, but I'm sick of that tactic considering the team has been spinning it's wheels for 4 years.
This isn't a long-term move, but it's a mid-term move. Not looking to the far-off future, but not ONLY looking at this season(probably figures for this season it's a wash or slight improvement). But it means that Nieuwy thinks they can be a good playoff team for the next two seasons(if that's not his thinking it really doesn't make any sense to make this deal) and Cole will help. Whether he's right I don't know. I do think if the youngins step up and they can make some kind of move on a top 4 D improvement, they can be pretty dang good the next couple years.

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02-27-2013, 01:10 PM
  #285
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Well the problem is Cole no Cole, Ryder no Ryder the main problem with this club, ie the defense didn't get improved. This isn't a playoff team without a better defense so while we may have filled a hole with a better player than the kids, and that's debatable considering the way Cole has played coming out of the lockout you still haven't by any means improved your team. Again at best it's lateral and at worst it's a step back. Considering the way the kids have stepped in and contributed why would you pull the reins on that direction it seems obvious the club is heading toward?

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02-27-2013, 01:14 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
It seems though that Dallas does not agree with you they are in a rebuild. The options to them were re-sign Ryder or get a guy like Cole. I actually agree with that decision if those were the only options. I don't want Ryder for 3+ more years. I'd take the lesser of two evils for only 2 years remaining.

I, like you, would have preferred they moved him in a futures trade, but that thought, at least according to quotes, never crossed their mind.
And there in lies the disconnect from actual play on the ice to vision of the front office. Just like the previous four years before nothing about this club screams playoff contender. But let's say they do squeak in are the really better off with 5 and out against Chicago than moving guys like Ryder, Robidas, Morrow, and perhaps Roy to put themselves in a better position for next season. IE with more prospects, trade chips to improve the defense at the draft, or some combination thereof?

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02-27-2013, 01:23 PM
  #287
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Well the problem is Cole no Cole, Ryder no Ryder the main problem with this club, ie the defense didn't get improved. This isn't a playoff team without a better defense so while we may have filled a hole with a better player than the kids, and that's debatable considering the way Cole has played coming out of the lockout you still haven't by any means improved your team. Again at best it's lateral and at worst it's a step back. Considering the way the kids have stepped in and contributed why would you pull the reins on that direction it seems obvious the club is heading toward?
I hear you, but good team D play also involves the forwards, and the F group hasn't done the best job either in that regard. And Cole is supposedly an upgrade on Ryder defensively.

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02-27-2013, 01:25 PM
  #288
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And there in lies the disconnect from actual play on the ice to vision of the front office. Just like the previous four years before nothing about this club screams playoff contender. But let's say they do squeak in are the really better off with 5 and out against Chicago than moving guys like Ryder, Robidas, Morrow, and perhaps Roy to put themselves in a better position for next season. IE with more prospects, trade chips to improve the defense at the draft, or some combination thereof?
If you're looking for being in a better position NEXT season, Cole helps(if he's not in decline..TBD). Prospect or draft picks wouldn't help for NEXT season. Course flipping him for D help like you say would have been preferable.

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02-27-2013, 01:31 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
Well the problem is Cole no Cole, Ryder no Ryder the main problem with this club, ie the defense didn't get improved. This isn't a playoff team without a better defense so while we may have filled a hole with a better player than the kids, and that's debatable considering the way Cole has played coming out of the lockout you still haven't by any means improved your team. Again at best it's lateral and at worst it's a step back. Considering the way the kids have stepped in and contributed why would you pull the reins on that direction it seems obvious the club is heading toward?
I'm hoping that this is precursor to another trade. Cole makes Morrow expendable. Package Morrow with a pick and try to land a defenseman.

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02-27-2013, 01:33 PM
  #290
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If you're looking for being in a better position NEXT season, Cole helps(if he's not in decline..TBD). Prospect or draft picks wouldn't help for NEXT season. Course flipping him for D help like you say would have been preferable.
I know I"m oversimplifying this to make a point ... but Cody Eakin isn't helping this team right now? We all called Antoine Roussel's impact on this team?

The point with Eakin is you were able to get a quality young player having a big impact by selling a veteran you didn't want. The point with Roussel is yes you probably won't get as high profile a player as Eakin for Ryder, but you never know what young guy is going to break out and shock us all.

That's why I don't buy into this argument.

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02-27-2013, 01:46 PM
  #291
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I know I"m oversimplifying this to make a point ... but Cody Eakin isn't helping this team right now? We all called Antoine Roussel's impact on this team?

The point with Eakin is you were able to get a quality young player having a big impact by selling a veteran you didn't want. The point with Roussel is yes you probably won't get as high profile a player as Eakin for Ryder, but you never know what young guy is going to break out and shock us all.

That's why I don't buy into this argument.
That and I think it's pretty damn evident that our amateur scouts know what the hell they're doing. I'd rather they ask around and inquire about a couple of dozen of guys be they forwards or defenseman to take a chance on than trust the pro scouts about various 5/6th defenseman that may or may not be had. If nothing else we've proven we can develop wingers, there's a market for them and we could package a pick/prospect to someone for a young defender, even if by doing so, we have to wait for a year for them to be ready.

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02-27-2013, 01:52 PM
  #292
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I hear you, but good team D play also involves the forwards, and the F group hasn't done the best job either in that regard. And Cole is supposedly an upgrade on Ryder defensively.
We're getting killed largely on turnovers by d-men (like Jordie Benn last night on CLB's 4th goal) and poor net front coverage (a d-man's territory). It's the blueline that needs more improvement.

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02-27-2013, 02:26 PM
  #293
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Cole can be great defensively but that's not going to shave a 1.00 off our GAA. It's not going to help egregious turnovers down low or help us get out of our own end more consistently with our other three lines.

People keep saying Cole is the better player. We'll see. I'm just not buying it yet and he still doesn't address the glaring team need at defense.

If this is phase one of a multi-part move then okay we'll see but just as it is in the context of this year or next year Cole isn't the difference as to whether this team makes the playoffs or not.

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02-27-2013, 03:19 PM
  #294
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Glaring defensive weaknesses are Goligoski, backchecking (specifically a certain Benn), and inexperienced D-men. And a pair of absolutely horrendous backups.

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02-27-2013, 03:30 PM
  #295
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Cole can be great defensively but that's not going to shave a 1.00 off our GAA. It's not going to help egregious turnovers down low or help us get out of our own end more consistently with our other three lines.

People keep saying Cole is the better player. We'll see. I'm just not buying it yet and he still doesn't address the glaring team need at defense.

If this is phase one of a multi-part move then okay we'll see but just as it is in the context of this year or next year Cole isn't the difference as to whether this team makes the playoffs or not.
Our offense has really woken up while Kari has been out. I'm inclined to wait until we see what this team is like in front of Kari before I get upset about them doing nothing about defense. Our defense has even seemed to get better as the season goes on, and a big chunk of our goals allowed are from poor goaltending, not so much defensive lapses, IMO.

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02-27-2013, 03:30 PM
  #296
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We're getting killed largely on turnovers by d-men (like Jordie Benn last night on CLB's 4th goal) and poor net front coverage (a d-man's territory). It's the blueline that needs more improvement.
Don't disagree, just saying it's better to have Cole than Ryder for defensive ability. Backchecking and forward D coverage is important too. The replies above to my other post, great points... They did nail it on a guy like Eakin and seems the track record on prospects is a lot better than scouting established players.

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02-27-2013, 03:34 PM
  #297
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People keep saying Cole is the better player. We'll see. I'm just not buying it yet
Well, just looking at it on paper he definitely seems like a better player(unless Cole has truly regressed). The scoring from them is equal. But in every other area I can think of Cole is considered to be better. I am glad to have a fast guy. The only guy on the team I'd consider to be VERY fast is Garbutt. Ryder is usually useless if he's not scoring goals. His sudden playmaking renaissance was fun to watch though.

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02-27-2013, 03:35 PM
  #298
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Our offense has really woken up while Kari has been out. I'm inclined to wait until we see what this team is like in front of Kari before I get upset about them doing nothing about defense. Our defense has even seemed to get better as the season goes on, and a big chunk of our goals allowed are from poor goaltending, not so much defensive lapses, IMO.
We all have been utterly spoiled by the God-like Kari who covered up for the shoddy defensive play. Nihlstorp and Bachman look pedestrian by comparison, but they have been decent. The defense is more to blame than the goaltending from the backups, IMO.

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02-27-2013, 03:54 PM
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Interesting piece here at TFP.

Missed opportunity maybe?

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02-27-2013, 04:11 PM
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Would you be willing to do a Smith for Merrill swap?

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