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Daly on impact of realignment on expansion, negotiations w/NHLPA

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02-28-2013, 02:24 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
I don't think that's the case.

They'd like two conference of 15 teams. The division of those teams is what would "make or break" it.
Even if there were 15 teams in both conferences, one division in each conference would have 8 teams, and the other would have 7 teams. That could be enough for the NHLPA to continue to cry imbalance.

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02-28-2013, 02:29 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Starting to sound like the NHLPA wants to keep it at 6 divisions.
Like I've been saying, guys, the League has introduced this idea of more than 2 Conferences, so what they should do is go with 3 Conferences, try that out at least until expansion (though I think it could still work even with expansion, especially if they could bring 3 new teams in, one for each Conference). The 3-Conference structure just seems to work so nicely, with the exception of not doing much to improve Minnesota's situation.

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02-28-2013, 02:45 PM
  #128
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Even if there were 15 teams in both conferences, one division in each conference would have 8 teams, and the other would have 7 teams. That could be enough for the NHLPA to continue to cry imbalance.
It shouldnt matter. If they seeded the playoffs 1 through 8 in each conference it would be balanced.

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02-28-2013, 02:48 PM
  #129
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It shouldnt matter. If they seeded the playoffs 1 through 8 in each conference it would be balanced.
Personally I wouldn't mind that, but then the CTZ teams (and Detroit if they were the team sent back west) would complain about potentially facing a west coast team in the first round of the playoffs.

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02-28-2013, 03:55 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
And with 16 teams in the ETZ, there is no alignment of 15 in one conference and 1 in the other that can occur without enraging that 1 and ensuring that the alignment will not pass the BOG. Because either that 1 is Detroit, meaning the Red Wings are enraged about being left in the west and raise hellfire & damnation to prevent it; or it is Columbus, in which case not only are they enraged to be made the western sacrificial lamb but the other 14 western owners rage against losing the Wings as a conference road draw.

The PA had better pick their battle carefully here.
This is going to sound crazy, but why does the PA need to pick their battle carefully?

All the PA can do is withhold reasonable consent, and any realignment plan will not be implemented. What exactly is the worst that can happen? The League implements the plan without the PA's consent, causing the PA to go to court? The League doesn't implement the plan, and goes to court demanding that the PA's lack of consent is unreasonable?

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02-28-2013, 03:57 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
Chimera who is the Capitals union rep mentioned a few weeks back how it was unfair for Winnipeg to be a the sole CDN team in a division. I wonder if that is also an issue the PA might be having in addition to the others mentioned?

I know Jets ownership personally doesn't have a problem with it.
But they are playing CT and MT time-zone teams (better local TV start times) in the division, plus MT/AZT/PT teams in other division of conference.

Minnesota's owner I think has a bit more clout and did not want to be in a division with four Canadian teams.

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02-28-2013, 04:02 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
But they are playing CT and MT time-zone teams (better local TV start times) in the division, plus MT/AZT/PT teams in other division of conference.

Minnesota's owner I think has a bit more clout and did not want to be in a division with four Canadian teams.
I think Minnesota primarily didn't want to be in a division with Vancouver, which is two timezones away.

As for Chimera's concerns about Winnipeg, I think they have something to do with customs considering they'll have to cross the border into the U.S. a lot more often than the other Canadian teams.

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02-28-2013, 04:22 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
Chimera who is the Capitals union rep mentioned a few weeks back how it was unfair for Winnipeg to be a the sole CDN team in a division. I wonder if that is also an issue the PA might be having in addition to the others mentioned?

I know Jets ownership personally doesn't have a problem with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
But they are playing CT and MT time-zone teams (better local TV start times) in the division, plus MT/AZT/PT teams in other division of conference.

Minnesota's owner I think has a bit more clout and did not want to be in a division with four Canadian teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
I think Minnesota primarily didn't want to be in a division with Vancouver, which is two timezones away.

As for Chimera's concerns about Winnipeg, I think they have something to do with customs considering they'll have to cross the border into the U.S. a lot more often than the other Canadian teams.
Don't forget that the original Jets were happy to be in the old Norris division. They were moved to the Smythe when Colorado moved to New Jersey. The Jets did not like being in that division and a big part of that was the Canucks and Kings being 2 timezones away. Cheswick's right about the current Jets ownership liking the potential new alignment and being the only team from Canada is not a problem.

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02-28-2013, 04:24 PM
  #134
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So, from Darren Dreger on that video posted a couple of pages ago:

PA wants 7/8/7/8, or essentially only 15 teams in the 2 easternmost groupings.

League wants 16 - because of Time Zones and TV times. Detroit and Columbus, the 2 easiest candidates for inclusion in the west, have objections. Detroit because they are tired of the being the odd man out, and Columbus because they think that long term, they can't survive otherwise.

Obviously, this is a real problem. Especially since is PHX has to move this summer (whatever %age anyone gives that....) the most likely place is QUE, which would make 17 teams in the Eastern Time Zone.

I have no way out to offer. I find it fascinating, and also reflective of the way the League continues to deal with the PA, that the PA objected to the Dec 2011 proposal, and then the League offers something to the media 14 months later that doesn't change the most important objection the PA had.

As for the present, my suggestion would be:
Ask Carolina if they mind being with Nashville in the Central (I know the League called it Midwest, but I can't bring myself to do that). Sure, they would be the only ETZ team. But, it's not a bad group - Win, Minn, Chi, StL, Dal, Nas (In this case Colo goes back with the Pacific coast teams to preserve only 2 time zones in any grouping.)

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02-28-2013, 04:28 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by CBCnutcase View Post
Don't forget that the original Jets were happy to be in the old Norris division. They were moved to the Smythe when Colorado moved to New Jersey. The Jets did not like being in that division and a big part of that was the Canucks and Kings being 2 timezones away. Cheswick's right about the current Jets ownership liking the potential new alignment and being the only team from Canada is not a problem.
This is correct as far as everything I have read from the Winnipeg team and ownership, and even their fan base.

Besides, Chimera's job is to represent the Capitals, not the Jets.

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02-28-2013, 04:28 PM
  #136
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I think Minnesota primarily didn't want to be in a division with Vancouver, which is two timezones away.
That wouldn't be the problem.

Move Vancouver to the Pacifc and Dallas to the Central, and this is the improvement for Minnesota's schedule:

Vancouver moves from six games, three home and away, to four games, two home and away.

Dallas moves from four games, two home and away, to six games, two home and away.

That's all the improvement; one game goes from @ Vancouver to @ Dallas. So Leipold (owner of Minnesota) doesn't have it in for the Cancuks. He doesn't want to be in a division with the Western Canadian teams, as he'd rather play the Hawks and Blues a bit more.

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02-28-2013, 04:33 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
This is going to sound crazy, but why does the PA need to pick their battle carefully?

All the PA can do is withhold reasonable consent, and any realignment plan will not be implemented. What exactly is the worst that can happen? The League implements the plan without the PA's consent, causing the PA to go to court? The League doesn't implement the plan, and goes to court demanding that the PA's lack of consent is unreasonable?
Not court - arbitration.

The NHL would implement it's plan and then it would be up to the NHLPA to file a grievance under Article 17 of the CBA - which would be heard and decided by the Impartial Arbiter.

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02-28-2013, 04:39 PM
  #138
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Would be great if we could see a PA proposed alignment. Particular do's and dont's are good, but they don't paint a whole picture.

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02-28-2013, 04:45 PM
  #139
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Would be great if we could see a PA proposed alignment. Particular do's and dont's are good, but they don't paint a whole picture.
I agree with this. I happen to agree with the PA's point here, but I also know that it's easier to complain than to govern - just look at many countries in the Middle East recently. So, for the PA, it's easy to say "We don't like this". It's harder to come up with something that works.

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02-28-2013, 04:45 PM
  #140
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NHLN NHL Live from Dregger -- latest wrinkle seems to be that either Columbus or Detroit will switch to EC, not both.

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02-28-2013, 04:53 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
NHLN NHL Live from Dregger -- latest wrinkle seems to be that either Columbus or Detroit will switch to EC, not both.
Which makes perfect sense right now. Adding Colorado to the Pacific (can't have 3 TZs) gives:
PAC - 8
MID - 7 (15 in the Western Conference)

ETZ conferences = 15 as well.

Then, playoffs:
Top 3 in each group qualify. #4 in the 8-team group always qualifies. #5 is the potential wild card.

So, here, Det/Cmb is in the MID grouping. They can never be crossed to the PAC. There could be a PAC team crossed to the MID. It would be only one round for any MID teams, so that tempers the problem. Plus, if need be, right the bylaw so that no teams from 3 TZs apart meet in Round 1.

Further, I like this: If, and I mean if, PHX moves to QUE, then Carolina joins the MID as well.


Last edited by MNNumbers: 02-28-2013 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Add last paragraph
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02-28-2013, 05:04 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Which makes perfect sense right now. Adding Colorado to the Pacific (can't have 3 TZs) gives:
PAC - 8
MID - 7 (15 in the Western Conference)

ETZ conferences = 15 as well.

Then, playoffs:
Top 3 in each group qualify. #4 in the 8-team group always qualifies. #5 is the potential wild card.

So, here, Det/Cmb is in the MID grouping. They can never be crossed to the PAC. There could be a PAC team crossed to the MID. It would be only one round for any MID teams, so that tempers the problem. Plus, if need be, right the bylaw so that no teams from 3 TZs apart meet in Round 1.

Further, I like this: If, and I mean if, PHX moves to QUE, then Carolina joins the MID as well.
This seems like the most logical thing Ive heard yet. Hope its what takes place.

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02-28-2013, 05:07 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Which makes perfect sense right now. Adding Colorado to the Pacific (can't have 3 TZs) gives:
PAC - 8
MID - 7 (15 in the Western Conference)

ETZ conferences = 15 as well.

Then, playoffs:
Top 3 in each group qualify. #4 in the 8-team group always qualifies. #5 is the potential wild card.

So, here, Det/Cmb is in the MID grouping. They can never be crossed to the PAC. There could be a PAC team crossed to the MID. It would be only one round for any MID teams, so that tempers the problem. Plus, if need be, right the bylaw so that no teams from 3 TZs apart meet in Round 1.

Further, I like this: If, and I mean if, PHX moves to QUE, then Carolina joins the MID as well.
Changing bylaws is not always an easy thing. And under normal terms would require a 2/3 vote. Not sure they could swing that.

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02-28-2013, 05:15 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
NHLN NHL Live from Dregger -- latest wrinkle seems to be that either Columbus or Detroit will switch to EC, not both.
It would almost have to be Columbus if that's the case.

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02-28-2013, 05:27 PM
  #145
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Changing bylaws is not always an easy thing. And under normal terms would require a 2/3 vote. Not sure they could swing that.
Tsanuri,

What change do they have to make to do a new playoff system? Is that a bylaw? If not, then I am using the wrong term, and I apologize. It seems to me that having a provision limiting a ETZ from meeting a PTZ team in Round 1 is no different to write than "The Top 3 seeds in each Conference will be the Regular Season Division Champions, in order of points earned during the Regular Season"

Or, am I missing something?

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02-28-2013, 05:31 PM
  #146
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Oh, and the playing matrix is either of these:
1) vs other conference 15 x 2 =30
for 7team divisions: vs other division in conference: 3x8=24 (rotate extra home game each year). Leaving 28 games in division. 4x5 + 2x4 =28
for 8team division: vs other division in conference: 21
Leaving 31 games. 4x4 + 3x5 = 31

Or,
2) Home/home with everybody. All other games in your own division (the Dec 2011 proposal)

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02-28-2013, 05:35 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Tsanuri,

What change do they have to make to do a new playoff system? Is that a bylaw? If not, then I am using the wrong term, and I apologize. It seems to me that having a provision limiting a ETZ from meeting a PTZ team in Round 1 is no different to write than "The Top 3 seeds in each Conference will be the Regular Season Division Champions, in order of points earned during the Regular Season"

Or, am I missing something?
You used the term w bylaw. Bylaws are a specific thing. And I have no idea if what you were suggesting about two teams meeting across 3 time zones and you using the word bylaw would require it. But it would take some type of change to make sure no teams 3 time zones apart would meet in the first round.

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02-28-2013, 05:40 PM
  #148
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NHLN NHL Live from Dregger -- latest wrinkle seems to be that either Columbus or Detroit will switch to EC, not both.
Detroit would seem to be the logical choice with the present divisions.

Detroit is both closer to and a huge boon to the teams in the NE division; Detroit vs the various Canadian teams and Boston more often is bound to generate massive revenues. Their positioning also adds a lot of potential attendance and TV viewership to Tampa Bay and more importantly Florida, who could use the help.

Meanwhile, Columbus doesn't really do anything for anyone in the Atlantic other than Columbus. It's great for them, of course, but they add nothing to the east, and the east seems to be where the power is at.

Of course, if it comes down to Columbus or Detroit the West would most likely rather have Detroit. The issue is that no one cares about Columbus, so both sides would rather just push them off.

I think what this may come down to the NHL's valuation of Florida vs Columbus. Both are markets in need of aid. As Florida is the larger market and larger TV market, I think the NHL will ultimately favor Detroit in this, but it depends on how hard the West wants to fight to keep them. I think the current 14 east teams are a lock for preferring Detroit, plus Detroit themselves. That would mean they need to get 5 west teams on their side for a 2/3 vote: Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, and Minnesota seem the most likely choices to me (I can see Minnesota's owner throwing his towel in with the other hardliners [who are pretty much all East] and Bettman).

Personally, I think things would be more interesting with an entirely different set of groupings, but business is going to win out here.

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02-28-2013, 06:04 PM
  #149
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--th...214645650.html
Yahoo's Cotsonika takes a look at the problems with proposed realignment, and how to fix.

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02-28-2013, 06:13 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
NHLN NHL Live from Dregger -- latest wrinkle seems to be that either Columbus or Detroit will switch to EC, not both.
Do that and leave the 6 division, 2 conference alone which is the status quo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Oh, and the playing matrix is either of these:
1) vs other conference 15 x 2 =30
for 7team divisions: vs other division in conference: 3x8=24 (rotate extra home game each year). Leaving 28 games in division. 4x5 + 2x4 =28
for 8team division: vs other division in conference: 21
Leaving 31 games. 4x4 + 3x5 = 31

Or,
2) Home/home with everybody. All other games in your own division (the Dec 2011 proposal)
It is unbalanced with the 4 divisions. The 6 division can be balanced with 2011 proposal, 29x2=58 and the 4 other teams in the division six more times, 4x6=24 does equal 82.

The other way would be
4x5=20 or 4x6=24 (divisional games)
10x3=30 (conference games from the other 2 divs
15x2=30 (from the other conference.

and that equals 80 or 84 games.

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