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Kesler out with a broken foot

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Old
02-28-2013, 10:59 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by jimmythescot View Post
Nobody takes friendly tournaments seriously. In Scotland in order of merit it's the SPL (Presidents trophy) - Scottish Cup - League Cup - 1st Division - Challenge Cup - Rest of the Leagues.

After that its a bunch of stuff that's very local and nobody cares about. Friendly cups being the very lowest of these.

I'd prefer a balanced schedule and have the league be the biggest award as it relies much less on luck, and if everyone is desperate to win every game it gives a much higher intensity level than the current regular season.
The cascadia cup and nutri lite cup are not friendlies. Yet they take these sooooo incredibly seriously. When asked about their goals for the season, the caps out right say how big winning cascadia and nutri lite would be. Really? How big of an accomplishment is it to be the best out of 3 teams. Or "we're the best in canada!!!!" but theres only 3 teams....

Also, I just can't get excited about winning a game to not be relegated. "ZOMG WE GOTTA WIN ! OUR TEAM IS THE WORST OF THE BEST AND WE GOTTA STAY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BEST LEAGUE INSTEAD OF BEING SENT DOWN TO A WORSE LEAGUE!"


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02-28-2013, 11:42 AM
  #227
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Yes, but it's mostly in the minds of the fans.
You said there was a problem with the system. So fan expectation should be expected.
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Originally Posted by Jyrki21 View Post
And besides, it isn't true: fans clearly care about stuff like division titles, All-Star selections, stats, etc., because they debate them endlessly on the radio and over the Internet.
So fans only care about winning the Cup but they also care about these other things?

You're all over the place.

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02-28-2013, 11:49 AM
  #228
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Also, I just can't get excited about winning a game to not be relegated. "ZOMG WE GOTTA WIN ! OUR TEAM IS THE WORST OF THE BEST AND WE GOTTA STAY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BEST LEAGUE INSTEAD OF BEING SENT DOWN TO A WORSE LEAGUE!"

It's akin to the battle for the final playoff spot. The context makes for a compelling story but you can't convince me it's the best hockey. Relegation sounds like a whole other level of suck. But I'm sure it's intense.

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02-28-2013, 11:51 AM
  #229
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Now we can't even trade him while he still has some value.

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02-28-2013, 12:24 PM
  #230
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Now we can't even trade him while he still has some value.
More accurately, Gillis can trade him but his value is diminished.

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02-28-2013, 01:06 PM
  #231
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More accurately, Gillis can trade him but his value is diminished.
Why trade Kesler? He's the Canuck's top play-off performer, and arguably their best player.

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02-28-2013, 02:18 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
Now we can't even trade him while he still has some value.
What

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02-28-2013, 02:19 PM
  #233
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What
Typical Canucks fans.

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02-28-2013, 02:41 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Jyrki21 View Post
OK, you totally got me with the light-colored text. I was definitely about to lay into your response.


What does this even mean? We all want to win. But acknowledging the high probability that we can't doesn't mean we should tank, or that we should view losing the 7th game of the SCF as the same as missing the playoffs. (For the record, the NHL is complicit in this with its draft system. A lottery for the #1 overall that barely affects anyone doesn't in any way correct the perverse incentive.)


Yes, but it's mostly in the minds of the fans. There are different tiers of accomplishment (making the playoffs, winning the division, winning playoff rounds, etc.) This idea that "everyone is an equal loser but the team who wins the Cup" is a pretty recent phenomenon in my experience, probably spread by pointless Internet trash talk. Accomplishment in sports has always been relative, and a reductionist approach like this is just a recipe for bitterness. I mean, when the BC Lions won their first ever game in an otherwise disastrous inaugural season in a tiny league, there were street parties. Belarus issued a postage stamp when they beat Sweden in a single Olympic hockey game. Soccer teams who win promotion from div. 3 to div. 2 are freaking thrilled.

Sports is entertainment, and it's way more fun to have the possibility of sometimes being happy. Yes, the Canucks are not an expansion team, and we're at the stage where we want them to win the Cup, but we can't pretend that not being able to against horrible odds means that we should treat everything as a massive failure and have to "blow it up" every year.


First of all, forget peewee -- in every pro sports league in the world outside of North America, the Cup is one distinction, while winning the league is another, in addition to numerous other distinctions. All of those fans stick with their club even through relegation to lower levels because it isn't all about one thing, it's about racking up as much glory as you can. In North America, the Cup is the end goal, yes. If it is truly the "only thing that matters" (to the point that you can't enjoy the sport on its own, or be excited when your team does something short of winning the Cup) then it's almost pointless to watch games. And besides, it isn't true: fans clearly care about stuff like division titles, All-Star selections, stats, etc., because they debate them endlessly on the radio and over the Internet.


Have you seen this place after, like, a preseason loss? I'm not the one who is taking it too seriously -- I am trying to offer some perspective here to counterbalance the "last overall is the same as second overall" mentality. Nobody applies this to their own life ("I'm not the CEO of Exxon-Mobil? I may as well be homeless!"), so it's ridiculous that they would apply it to other things.
I think there needs to be some perspective here though right? I mean your generalization is pretty broad and you are attempting to apply it to the Canucks fan which in this case doesn't fit that generalization and can't be further from it. All those accomplishment that you listed that people celebrated. We've celebrated similar ones already...there isn't anything left. That's the difference.

In the last 5 years, this team or it's players have won the following trophies:
Campbell (Going to the finals)
Presidents' (back to back)
Ted Lindsey
Art Ross
Hart
Jennings
Selke
GM of the Year

I don't understand how "It's the cup or nothing" is the wrong mentality for the fans of this team. What else can we cheer for? All the things you've listed, no one cheers for a status quo. Fans cheer for improvement, regardless of what sport or region.

I don't think it's a NA thing because there are lots of Ottawa fans last year that cheered when they made the playoffs. The panthers fans? It comes down to expectation and I don't agree with your generalization that "North American" fans its all "cup or nothing". But for this team, I think there are arguments to be made.

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02-28-2013, 02:49 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Kaphis View Post
I think there needs to be some perspective here though right? I mean your generalization is pretty broad and you are attempting to apply it to the Canucks fan which in this case doesn't fit that generalization and can't be further from it. All those accomplishment that you listed that people celebrated. We've celebrated similar ones already...there isn't anything left. That's the difference.

In the last 5 years, this team or it's players have won the following trophies:
Campbell (Going to the finals)
Presidents' (back to back)
Ted Lindsey
Art Ross
Hart
Jennings
Selke
GM of the Year

I don't understand how "It's the cup or nothing" is the wrong mentality for the fans of this team. What else can we cheer for? All the things you've listed, no one cheers for a status quo. Fans cheer for improvement, regardless of what sport or region.

I don't think it's a NA thing because there are lots of Ottawa fans last year that cheered when they made the playoffs. The panthers fans? It comes down to expectation and I don't agree with your generalization that "North American" fans its all "cup or nothing". But for this team, I think there are arguments to be made.

The bolded hits the nail on the head.

When we weren't making the playoffs regularly before the WCE, the year we got to face Detriot and took the first 2 game, I know me and many people I knew cheered for the ride, making the playoffs was a thrill.

But when they make the playoffs easily, when they've won almost every other trophy with this roster, it makes sense to push for improvement and not be satisfied by status quo.

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02-28-2013, 03:10 PM
  #236
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I certainly cheered when Hank won the Art Ross and Hart, Daniel the same but the Ted Lindsay, when we won the President's Trophy, Kesler the Selke. For an organization that's never won much of anything for most of its existence, there deservingly should be recognition for all that they've accomplished over the past 3 years. The team has never been this good or prominent in its history, and these awards are a testament to that.

By no means am I saying it's okay to be complacent, but we shouldn't just write off everything either just because there hasn't been a Cup yet. It reflects on the tremendous improvement this team has taken, step by step. They're all milestones in a journey that has yet to be finished. Time to have a little more pride in what the Canucks have achieved thus far. Championship teams rarely come out of nowhere after all. Who cares what other fans on HF think?

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02-28-2013, 03:12 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
Now we can't even trade him while he still has some value.
Want to explain to us how you trade a guy with a full NTC who has stated for the record he will never waive it?

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02-28-2013, 03:13 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Why trade Kesler? He's the Canuck's top play-off performer, and arguably their best player.
They cant trade him. He has a full NTC and he stated long ago he would never waive it.

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02-28-2013, 04:26 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Why trade Kesler? He's the Canuck's top play-off performer, and arguably their best player.
I'm saying that injured players can be traded. Nothing more or less.

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03-01-2013, 08:48 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
You said there was a problem with the system. So fan expectation should be expected.
The system in North America -- that the tournament part of the season is, contrary to all math and logic, infinitely more important than the far greater sample size that comes before it -- is unique. Fans have unfortunately taken this to the logical extreme and literally deride anything that falls short of winning the Cup. Look at how often the President's Trophy gets thrown at Canuck fans on this site as some kind of insult (almost as though it doesn't get awarded every year). Look at how the Albertan fans will cite their teams' Cup(s) in the '80s as reason we apparently can't be happy when our team does well in the present day. Look at how often the phrase "has never won a thing" is bandied about on these boards for players and teams that have won an awful lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
So fans only care about winning the Cup but they also care about these other things?

You're all over the place.
I'm saying the "Cup or BUST!!!11!!" mentality (whatever it means) or "never won a thing!!!11!" that always gets repeated by fans -- and the predictable reaction that it's a "loser's mentality" any time you point out that there are other things to be happy about and that many things have been won -- is betrayed by the fact that the fans still do bother to talk about these things. I'm saying it's a dishonest approach. There are obviously several things that matter, but no one will admit it, since it's apparently a "loser's mentality" or some sign of weakness. Again, in spite of the fact that no one else evaluates their own life against the criteria that "second is the first loser". That's the most depressing outlook on life I can imagine.

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Originally Posted by Kaphis View Post
I don't understand how "It's the cup or nothing" is the wrong mentality for the fans of this team. What else can we cheer for? All the things you've listed, no one cheers for a status quo. Fans cheer for improvement, regardless of what sport or region.
I'm not saying we shouldn't want the Cup. Obviously we should. I'm saying -- and the reason why I chimed in in this thread to be begin with -- tanking shouldn't be seen as preferable to anything other than winning the Cup. Nor should we immediately seek to fire the coach or "blow up the team" any time they have a date with near-inevitability.

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03-01-2013, 09:42 AM
  #241
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I'm saying that injured players can be traded. Nothing more or less.
I see, but still the Canuck's need more top players, that have Kesler's edge.

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03-01-2013, 10:12 AM
  #242
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Why trade Kesler? He's the Canuck's top play-off performer, and arguably their best player.
Kesler's reputation as a "playoff performer" is largely unfounded. His series against Nashville might be the best series any Canuck has ever had. Beyond that, his playoff resume is ordinary. At best.

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03-01-2013, 10:15 AM
  #243
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Kesler's reputation as a "playoff performer" is largely unfounded. His series against Nashville might be the best series any Canuck has ever had. Beyond that, his playoff resume is ordinary. At best.
ya cuz he injured himself vs SJ

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03-01-2013, 10:22 AM
  #244
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ya cuz he injured himself vs SJ
The series against the Preds was amazing. He scored 5 goals and 11 points in 6 games.

Outside of that series, he has 5 goals and 25 points in 47 career playoff games.

Obviously, he does more than put up points, but they need goals out of him, too.

There are people who want to suggest that Kesler is this playoff warrior, and outside of one incredible series, that's just not the case.

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03-01-2013, 10:30 AM
  #245
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03-01-2013, 10:35 AM
  #246
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The series against the Preds was amazing. He scored 5 goals and 11 points in 6 games.

Outside of that series, he has 5 goals and 25 points in 47 career playoff games.

Obviously, he does more than put up points, but they need goals out of him, too.

There are people who want to suggest that Kesler is this playoff warrior, and outside of one incredible series, that's just not the case.
It's too bad Kesler does get injured so frequently (it seems). It does take away from his performance. I wonder if having a big, tough winger on his line would help with that matter, or is his style of play (combined with his body type) just going to see him get hurt often?

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03-01-2013, 10:38 AM
  #247
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The series against the Preds was amazing. He scored 5 goals and 11 points in 6 games.

Outside of that series, he has 5 goals and 25 points in 47 career playoff games.

Obviously, he does more than put up points, but they need goals out of him, too.

There are people who want to suggest that Kesler is this playoff warrior, and outside of one incredible series, that's just not the case.
He dominated a Conn Smythe trophy winner in the Chicago series, stepped and directly contributed to both goals in game 7 as well (Burrows first goal is a tap-in because Kesler pyloned, Keith, who at the time was the Norris Trophy holder).

Tipped in the game tying goal with under 20 seconds remaining in the Sharks game 5 (on one groin) that led to Bieksa being able to win it in OT.

Kesler is a very important player for us, one who can have just as big an impact in games without scoring. The same can't be said for most of the team in this regard (burrows, Hansen being the only others).

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03-01-2013, 10:41 AM
  #248
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It's too bad Kesler does get injured so frequently (it seems). It does take away from his performance. I wonder if having a big, tough winger on his line would help with that matter, or is his style of play (combined with his body type) just going to see him get hurt often?
Enough with 'big tough' and 'soft' talk.

A big winger isn't going to save Kesler's foot from being broken. It's also not going to keep his groin from tearing.

Kesler's injury problem is he's reckless, and puts himself in dangerous positions both to make plays and draw penalties (that is the part that needs to change...no more leaving your numbers exposed to the center of the ice hoping to get drilled from behind...he does this often).

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03-01-2013, 12:57 PM
  #249
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I'm saying it's a dishonest approach.
I'm not going to get into everything you said. It's only a dishonest approach if you attribute all opinions to an imaginary single person. I happen to be a person that considers the Cup as the only goal. I don't want the team to tank for a draft pick. I don't want division banners, the Campbell trophy/cup/whatever it's called. I want the team to go as far as it can every year but I'd rather those other things not get awarded. As it is, I try not to think about the ones the teams does have. If you think that's a depressing approach, knock yourself out.

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03-01-2013, 03:06 PM
  #250
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Enough with 'big tough' and 'soft' talk.

A big winger isn't going to save Kesler's foot from being broken. It's also not going to keep his groin from tearing.

Kesler's injury problem is he's reckless, and puts himself in dangerous positions both to make plays and draw penalties (that is the part that needs to change...no more leaving your numbers exposed to the center of the ice hoping to get drilled from behind...he does this often).
Who did the Canucks just claim? Oh, a big, tough left winger. Kesler's is not reckless; he's competitive. Seeing his team's knuckle dragger take some measure of revenge, will certainly allow Kesler to channel his competitive spirit in ways (you would say) are not so reckless.

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