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American student allegedly punished for not reciting Mexican pledge

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Old
02-27-2013, 04:36 PM
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American student allegedly punished for not reciting Mexican pledge

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes...an-pledge.html

Quote:
The Thomas More Law Center filed the suit on behalf of Brenda Brinsdon alleging the McAllen Independent School District violated the 15-year-old girl’s constitutional rights when she was forced to recite the Mexican pledge and sing the Mexican national anthem.

Brinsdon, who is the daughter of a Mexican immigrant and an American father, refused. She believed it was un-American to pledge a loyalty oath to another country.

Ironically, the school district has a policy that prohibits a school from compelling students to recite the American Pledge of Allegiance.

The district also has a written policy that excuses students from reciting text from the Declaration of Independence if the student “as determined by the district, has a conscientious objection to the recitation.”
Now, yes. It's Fox News. I was skeptical at first. And the Thomas Moore Law Center seems to be a pretty right wing group. I was skeptical then. But the complaint is pretty incendiary if it is true.

If this is all actually true, it is really quite unbelievable.

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02-27-2013, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
A Texas high school student has filed a federal lawsuit against her school after her Spanish teacher allegedly gave her a failing grade for refusing to recite the Mexican pledge of allegiance.
...
The teacher, Reyna Santos, gave her a different assignment on the Independence of Mexico to which she received 13 out of 100 points.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz2M8vIvszA

Nothing to see here, just someone trying to stir up trouble.

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02-27-2013, 04:55 PM
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What punishment?

According to the original source story:
When Brenda made clear she would not stand up and recite the pledge, she was given an alternative assignment: an essay on the history of the Mexican revolution.
...
School district spokesman Mark May defended the presentations, saying it’s a state requirement for upper-level language classes to teach about foreign culture.

According to the state’s Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills standards, students are expected to gain “knowledge and understanding” of other cultures and use the language to demonstrate understanding of different practices and perspectives. There are no specific requirements about learning to recite pledges or anthems.

May said it’s up to the teacher how to interpret and teach the standards.

“It wasn’t required to pledge loyalty and renounce the U.S., they were simply spreading the culture of another country,” May told The Blaze. “In my mind it’s no different from memorizing a poem or memorizing a passage from Shakespeare.”
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011...of-allegiance/

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02-27-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel diamond View Post
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz2M8vIvszA

Nothing to see here, just someone trying to stir up trouble.
Yes. She was given a failing grade after she was given a brush-off assignment with no guidance and no explanation for the failing grade. Looks like the teacher was mad at her and failed her. Which would make this an affront on her civil rights.

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02-27-2013, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
What punishment?

According to the original source story:
When Brenda made clear she would not stand up and recite the pledge, she was given an alternative assignment: an essay on the history of the Mexican revolution.
...
School district spokesman Mark May defended the presentations, saying it’s a state requirement for upper-level language classes to teach about foreign culture.

According to the state’s Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills standards, students are expected to gain “knowledge and understanding” of other cultures and use the language to demonstrate understanding of different practices and perspectives. There are no specific requirements about learning to recite pledges or anthems.

May said it’s up to the teacher how to interpret and teach the standards.

“It wasn’t required to pledge loyalty and renounce the U.S., they were simply spreading the culture of another country,” May told The Blaze. “In my mind it’s no different from memorizing a poem or memorizing a passage from Shakespeare.”
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011...of-allegiance/
Then the failing grade needs to be explained to her. Right now, it looks like retaliation from a Latina teacher for not reciting the Mexican pledge.

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02-27-2013, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Yes. She was given a failing grade after she was given a brush-off assignment with no guidance and no explanation for the failing grade. Looks like the teacher was mad at her and failed her. Which would make this an affront on her civil rights.
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Then the failing grade needs to be explained to her. Right now, it looks like retaliation from a Latina teacher for not reciting the Mexican pledge.
Or the student did not put the work into the assignment and was marked accordingly.

Seems a much more likely explanation to me. YMMV.

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02-27-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Or the student did not put the work into the assignment and was marked accordingly.
She was given a day to do the assignment and turned it in. If that's the case, it will come out in the trial.

Hence why I put "allegedly" in the title. Until then, all we have is her side.

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02-27-2013, 06:17 PM
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Ilkka Sinisalo
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So far we have links from Fox News, The Blaze and the Washington Times.

Taking this one with an enormous grain of salt.

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02-27-2013, 06:19 PM
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Failing grade for the class, or for the assignment? A rather big difference being glossed over there.

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02-27-2013, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
So far we have links from Fox News, The Blaze and the Washington Times.

Taking this one with an enormous grain of salt.
Yes, but there is an actual complaint, too, that has been filed with an actual court. These news organizations have just taken the complaint and publicized it (like what would happen with any civil rights complaint).

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02-27-2013, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kov View Post
Failing grade for the class, or for the assignment? A rather big difference being glossed over there.
Doesn't matter in the scheme of things. If it was retaliation for failing to want to pledge allegiance to another country (which, frankly, shouldn't even be allowed in the first place), the teacher should be removed.

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02-27-2013, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Yes, but there is an actual complaint, too, that has been filed with an actual court. These news organizations have just taken the complaint and publicized it (like what would happen with any civil rights complaint).
Right, but Thomas More Law Center is a joke. Most of their lawsuits are thrown out or end up losing. They appeal to the Rick Santorum crowd, people who want to pretend that America was founded as a Christian nation and people shouldn't be allowed to view porno or burn a flag, and public schools should teach intelligent design and abstinence-only education. They exist because the founder of Domino's has a lot of money and is a religious wing-nut.

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02-27-2013, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Right, but Thomas More Law Center is a joke. Most of their lawsuits are thrown out or end up losing. They appeal to the Rick Santorum crowd, people who want to pretend that America was founded as a Christian nation and people shouldn't be allowed to view porno or burn a flag, and public schools should teach intelligent design and abstinence-only education. They exist because the founder of Domino's has a lot of money and is a religious wing-nut.
Look, I don't disagree. THat's why I have put "allegedly" and have not passed judgment. The school has not said that they are not asked to recite the pledge and have not commented any more on the assignment.

Frankly, the school shouldn't be allowing students to take pledges from countries other than America, anyway, but that's just my view. Kind of an odd and awkward thing to have.

FWIW, the complaint is very poorly written and I got a chuckle out of how amateurish it looks.

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02-27-2013, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Right, but Thomas More Law Center is a joke. Most of their lawsuits are thrown out or end up losing. They appeal to the Rick Santorum crowd, people who want to pretend that America was founded as a Christian nation and people shouldn't be allowed to view porno or burn a flag, and public schools should teach intelligent design and abstinence-only education. They exist because the founder of Domino's has a lot of money and is a religious wing-nut.
As they claim at their website they are just:
  • Defending the Religious Freedom of Christians - because like Christians in the US of A are persecuted, eh???
  • Restoring Family Values - gotta watch out for those "radical homosexual groups who demand the legalization of same-sex marriages."
  • Defending the Sanctity of Human Life - as evidenced by that evil Roe vs. Wade decision. It should not be up to the pregnant woman to terminate "an innocent human life."
  • Confronting the Threat of Islam - "Radical Muslims and Islamic organizations in America take advantage of our legal system and are waging a “Stealth Jihad” within our borders. Their aim is to transform America into an Islamic nation. They have already infiltrated the highest levels of our government, the media, our military, both major political parties, public schools, universities, financial institutions and the cultural elite."
  • Defending National Security - "The Law Center opposes the Defense Department’s actions to homosexualize our military and to dilute and destroy its core values and standards of exemplary conduct."
http://www.thomasmore.org/

Just more wack-a-doodle extreme right wing fundamentalists.

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02-27-2013, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
As they claim at their website they are just:
  • Defending the Religious Freedom of Christians - because like Christians in the US of A are persecuted, eh???
  • Restoring Family Values - gotta watch out for those "radical homosexual groups who demand the legalization of same-sex marriages."
  • Defending the Sanctity of Human Life - as evidenced by that evil Roe vs. Wade decision. It should not be up to the pregnant woman to terminate "an innocent human life."
  • Confronting the Threat of Islam - "Radical Muslims and Islamic organizations in America take advantage of our legal system and are waging a “Stealth Jihad” within our borders. Their aim is to transform America into an Islamic nation. They have already infiltrated the highest levels of our government, the media, our military, both major political parties, public schools, universities, financial institutions and the cultural elite."
  • Defending National Security - "The Law Center opposes the Defense Department’s actions to homosexualize our military and to dilute and destroy its core values and standards of exemplary conduct."
http://www.thomasmore.org/

Just more wack-a-doodle extreme right wing fundamentalists.
Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. Until I see the response, I can't write it off as lunacy.

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02-27-2013, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post

Frankly, the school shouldn't be allowing students to take pledges from countries other than America, anyway, but that's just my view. Kind of an odd and awkward thing to have.
Why? They're not pledging any kind of allegiance to Mexico, it just sounds like a project to practice speaking Spanish out loud.

However I think having kids pledge allegiance to any country is fascist.

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02-27-2013, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KesselForSelke View Post
Why? They're not pledging any kind of allegiance to Mexico, it just sounds like a project to practice speaking Spanish out loud.

However I think having kids pledge allegiance to any country is fascist.
There are many, many other ways to practice speaking Spanish other than pledging allegiance to the country, man. I've taken foreign language classes. I never had to pledge allegiance to another country.

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02-27-2013, 08:31 PM
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Ilkka Sinisalo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Look, I don't disagree. THat's why I have put "allegedly" and have not passed judgment. The school has not said that they are not asked to recite the pledge and have not commented any more on the assignment.

Frankly, the school shouldn't be allowing students to take pledges from countries other than America, anyway, but that's just my view. Kind of an odd and awkward thing to have.
They shouldn't be doing the pledge of allegiance to America anyway, considering how many of their students are probably of Mexican descent. Anyway, I don't know that reading the Mexican pledge of allegiance is actually pledging allegiance to Mexico, or if it's just a learning exercise. If you stand for O Canada and sing that you'll stand on guard for thee, does that mean that you'll actually go to war for Canada? I remember learning the words of La Marseillaise and maybe even singing it in French class; that didn't mean I was renouncing my American citizenship and declaring my undying love for France.

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02-27-2013, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
They shouldn't be doing the pledge of allegiance to America anyway, considering how many of their students are probably of Mexican descent. Anyway, I don't know that reading the Mexican pledge of allegiance is actually pledging allegiance to Mexico, or if it's just a learning exercise. If you stand for O Canada and sing that you'll stand on guard for thee, does that mean that you'll actually go to war for Canada? I remember learning the words of La Marseillaise and maybe even singing it in French class; that didn't mean I was renouncing my American citizenship and declaring my undying love for France.
The whole point is they can do any other number of exercises. I don't have a problem with them singing the anthem, for example. The whole pledging allegiance thing to me just seems ridiculous and poorly thought out by the teacher.

There is something about a pledge that I and most others would hold to a higher standard than a mere song.

By the way, the girl herself is of Mexican descent. First generation American, actually.

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02-27-2013, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. Until I see the response, I can't write it off as lunacy.
I can.

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02-27-2013, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
The whole point is they can do any other number of exercises. I don't have a problem with them singing the anthem, for example. The whole pledging allegiance thing to me just seems ridiculous and poorly thought out by the teacher.

There is something about a pledge that I and most others would hold to a higher standard than a mere song.

By the way, the girl herself is of Mexican descent. First generation American, actually.
I guess it depends whether a person actually gives a **** about reading a supposed pledge of allegiance. I didn't give a **** when droning through the American pledge of allegiance for the 2000th time. I wouldn't give a **** about reading the pledge of allegiance to Mexico or whatever.

I don't really see how the Mexican pledge of allegiance is less creepy or offensive than someone reciting, say, the Mexican national anthem.

Quote:
Mexican flag
legacy from our heroes
symbol of the unity of our parents
and our brothers

We promise you:

To be always loyal
to the principles of freedom and justice
that makes this an independant,
human and generous nation ,
to which we dedicate our existence.
Quote:
Mexicans, at the cry of war,
make ready the steel and the bridle,
and may the Earth tremble at its centers
at the resounding roar of the cannon.
and may the Earth tremble at its centers
at the resounding roar of the cannon!

Let gird, oh Fatherland!, your brow with olive
by the divine archangel of peace,
for in heaven your eternal destiny
was written by the finger of God.
But if some enemy outlander should dare
to profane your ground with his sole,
think, oh beloved Fatherland!, that heaven
has given you a soldier in every son.

War, war without quarter to any who dare
to tarnish the coats of arms of the country!
War, war! Let the national banners
be soaked in waves of blood.
War, war! In the mountain, in the valley,
let the cannons thunder in horrid unison
and may the sonorous echoes resound
with cries of Union! Liberty!

O, Fatherland, ere your children, defenseless
bend their neck beneath the yoke,
may your fields be watered with blood,
may their foot be printed in blood.
And may your temples, palaces and towers
collapse with horrid clamor,
and may their ruins continue on, saying:
Of one thousand heroes, here the Fatherland began.

Fatherland! Fatherland! your children swear to you
to breathe their last for your sake,
if the bugle with its bellicose accent
calls them together to battle with courage.
For you, olive wreathes!
A memory for them of glory!
For you, a laurel of victory!
A tomb for them of honor!

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02-27-2013, 08:52 PM
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I see the difference just because a song isn't pledging allegiance. It's a subtle difference, IMO, but a difference nonetheless.

I'm not the biggest fan of our own pledge with the Cold War added wordage and all. But I think it is extremely awkward and odd to have people "dedicating existence" to Mexico via the pledge.

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02-27-2013, 08:59 PM
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Ilkka Sinisalo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
I'm not the biggest fan of our own pledge with the Cold War added wordage and all. But I think it is extremely awkward and odd to have people "dedicating existence" to Mexico via the pledge.
It's awkward and odd to have people dedicating existence to any nation. The U.S. isn't the reason that I exist; I exist because my parents had sex.

Personally I think we should go back to the pre-Cold War wording, with the original salute as well.


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02-27-2013, 09:00 PM
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I can't really condemn it or dismiss it unless I understand the circumstances for it. Do they have to do it every class, or was it a one-off? Was it presented as "you will TAKE this oath" or was it "we're here to learn Spanish language and Spanish-American culture, so here's a bit of it"? Same with the failing grade; I could concoct imaginary contexts where it would be sensible but I don't know anything about the actual context.

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02-27-2013, 09:23 PM
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Just read through the Fox News article. A few things.

Quote:
The recitation of the Mexican pledge and the singing of the Mexican national anthem was part of a 2011 Spanish class assignment at Achieve Early College High School. The teacher, Reyna Santos, required all her students to participate in the lesson.

When Brinsdon refused to back down – she was punished, the lawsuit alleges. She was given an alternative assignment on the Independence of Mexico. The teacher gave her a failing grade – and then required the student to sit in class over a period of several days to listen to other students recite the Mexican flag.

The lawsuit states Brinsdon offered to recite the American pledge in Spanish but the teacher refused her request.
First of all, "required all her students to participate in the lesson" - yes, that's what teachers do. They give an assignment, and the students do it. I was required to do a book report on A Tale of Two Cities and math homework on imaginary numbers.

Second, she was given an alternative assignment, so it doesn't sound like she was really required to participate in that lesson at all.

Third, "required the student to sit in class over a period of several days to listen to other students recite the Mexican flag" - this sounds like she was just being required to attend class. God forbid. What is so offensive about listening to other people read the Mexican pledge of allegiance in a ****ing Spanish class? She wasn't forced to read it herself. It's not like they were performing a pagan ritual.

Fourth, part of learning a language is learning the culture of the nations in which that language is spoken. Her offer to read the American pledge of allegiance in Spanish was dumb. That does not further her knowledge or understanding of a Spanish-speaking country. According to the article, she's already fluent in Spanish, so she was offering to do something that she could do with zero effort or learning involved.

It's possible that the teacher was vindictive and gave her a failing grade; it's also quite possible that she was ******** and did a bad job on her assignment, and was given a lousy grade as a result. The only way this lawsuit has any legitimacy whatsoever is if the student did an acceptable job on her alternative assignment and was still given a very poor mark. The fact that she was given an alternative assignment immediately nullifies the argument that she was forced to recite the Mexican pledge of allegiance and the Mexican national anthem. It certainly does not appear from the words in the lawsuit itself that she was FORCED to do anything besides attend a class and do an assignment.

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