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Erik Gustafsson (2012-13 season and beyond)

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Old
03-10-2014, 12:12 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But what you are talking about isn't what is going on. What you are arguing for is for Gus to be given a chance to prove he is superior, unless you are going to tell me that Gus's last 27 games vs. Grossmann's last 63 games tells the tale, at which point I would vehemently disagree and revert to my argument that it is at least as likely that Grossmann rebounds than it is that Gus continues or improves.

If Gus deserves a shot to keep his spot, why doesn't Grossmann deserve a shot to get it back? Like I said in my last post to a different user...at what point does Gus lose the spot? Is it his spot now because he is 25 and Grossmann is 29 and is slumping? How many bad games would it take for Gus to lose the job to Grossmann? And so forth and so on. I'd like to hear an answer to those questions, because if you can convince me that there is a method to your plan then I can come around to your position.
Grossmann deserves a shot to get it back, sure.

BUT HE"S NEVER LOST IT. That's the ****ing problem. He has been outplayed by Gus, who has done literally nothing but play solid hockey and increasingly earn his spot and remove doubt whenever he gets in the roster. He has been unfairly benched for minimal or no reason for players who don't outperform him. That hurts the team, so it's highly objectionable. And considering that it fits the larger trend of the Flyers being horrific at D development, it's disturbing. There's a reason Chis Therien is the closest thing to a home-grown impact defenseman that the Flyers have developed in our life time....you should really let that sink in before you continue defending the Flyers' choices concerning defensive development.

Once again, nobody here is preaching blind loyalty to anything. We are railing against the blind loyalty to vets like Grossmann. Railing against that does not automatically mean we are preaching blind loyalty to prospects. That's a strawman you're inventing so you can argue against it.

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03-10-2014, 12:16 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
In fairness a lot of teams do this to some extent. It's still archaic and stupid thinking, but it's not unique to this organization at least.

Also in fairness, this is the worst case of preferential treatment I've seen in a long while. Grossmann inherently doesn't have a skill-set that this team needs, has not been benched once to my memory (or at least almost never is), and has brought pretty much nothing to the table for many games now due to really poor play combined with limited uses.

So archaic old-boys club type thinking isn't unique to the Flyers, but it's still stupid and it's pretty ridiculous at this point in this case.

I don't really care if other teams do it. It hurts them too. It's fine if they want to damage themselves (hello, Montreal and your obsession with speaking French), but I prefer to see my team run more practically.

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03-10-2014, 12:18 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't really care if other teams do it. It hurts them too. It's fine if they want to damage themselves (hello, Montreal and your obsession with speaking French), but I prefer to see my team run more practically.
I added a nice little edit paragraph at the bottom I think you'll enjoy that I sense you'll agree with.

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03-10-2014, 12:18 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Just look at Hal Gill. What a dumb signing. He serves zero purpose. That's a role that should be filled by AHL callups if needed; they're likely to be at just about the same level of effectiveness, AND you get to evaluate them at the NHL level. Instead, the org chooses to place a guy with no future in the roster ahead of guys who just might have some sort of future.
Which AHL guy would you like to have seen be the 8th defenseman this year being a healthy scratch for all but four games?

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03-10-2014, 12:20 PM
  #255
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It is probably better to have Hal Gill on the team instead of a prospect because of that. The only benefit a player would get from being the 8th defenseman is collecting a NHL pay check. Other than that, they can develop in the AHL.

It's not like the Flyers are in bad shape cap wise now either, Gill's cap hit is nothing, and isn't hurting our team.

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03-10-2014, 12:22 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Which AHL guy would you like to have seen be the 8th defenseman this year being a healthy scratch for all but four games?
You don't NEED to carry an 8th dman everywhere you go. The 7th should be enough barring a sudden, rare emergency that costs you two Dmen at once with no time to fix it. The 8th guy can stay in the AHL until needed.

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03-10-2014, 12:22 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Which AHL guy would you like to have seen be the 8th defenseman this year being a healthy scratch for all but four games?
Do other teams even usually carry 8th D to play almost zero games? Seventh sure, but 8th? That's an honest question, I don't even recall many teams doing that.

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03-10-2014, 12:23 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Grossmann deserves a shot to get it back, sure.

BUT HE"S NEVER LOST IT. That's the ****ing problem. He has been outplayed by Gus, who has done literally nothing but play solid hockey and increasingly earn his spot and remove doubt whenever he gets in the roster. He has been unfairly benched for minimal or no reason for players who don't outperform him. That hurts the team, so it's highly objectionable. And considering that it fits the larger trend of the Flyers being horrific at D development, it's disturbing. There's a reason Chis Therien is the closest thing to a home-grown impact defenseman that the Flyers have developed in our life time....you should really let that sink in before you continue defending the Flyers' choices concerning defensive development.

Once again, nobody here is preaching blind loyalty to anything. We are railing against the blind loyalty to vets like Grossmann. Railing against that does not automatically mean we are preaching blind loyalty to prospects. That's a strawman you're inventing so you can argue against it.
So Grossmann loses his spot to Gus based on his performance this year and Gus gains the spot based on his performance. Gus is better than Grossmann because he played better in the last 27 games. Forget about Grossmann's prior years. They mean nothing. It is purely what have you done for me lately. I simply don't agree with that. It has nothing to do with blind loyalty on my end either, it is just that I think it is more likely for a guy to rebound.

And you still didn't provide me with any sort of framework to your idea on how the team should treat this and similar situations. When should Grossmann have been benched (i.e. how many bad games or sub-par performances would it take to bench Nicklas Grossmann)? How long does the benching last (until Gus (or other replacement) craps the bed)? Does he get a "warning shot" benching of a game or two regardless of the performance of his replacement? What is the next step? Is Gus then given the spot indefinitely? We obviously know you don't like the idea of Gus getting benched after one bad game, but how about two? Three? Are they in a row? If Gus gets benched and Grossmann only plays "ok" in his return, is he going to get randomly benched in favor of Gus? Do you ever consider a guy's past performance or is it only the current season (more time than that?, less time than that?)?

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03-10-2014, 12:23 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Do other teams even usually carry 8th D to play almost zero games? Seventh sure, but 8th? That's an honest question, I don't even recall many teams doing that.
I think I recall some teams icing 7 dmen a game if they are short on forwards, maybe I'm wrong.

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03-10-2014, 12:23 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I added a nice little edit paragraph at the bottom I think you'll enjoy that I sense you'll agree with.
Yeah. He preached accountability and I've yet to see much of it.

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03-10-2014, 12:27 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So Grossmann loses his spot to Gus based on his performance this year and Gus gains the spot based on his performance. Gus is better than Grossmann because he played better in the last 27 games. Forget about Grossmann's prior years. They mean nothing. It is purely what have you done for me lately. I simply don't agree with that. It has nothing to do with blind loyalty on my end either, it is just that I think it is more likely for a guy to rebound.

And you still didn't provide me with any sort of framework to your idea on how the team should treat this and similar situations. When should Grossmann have been benched (i.e. how many bad games or sub-par performances would it take to bench Nicklas Grossmann)? How long does the benching last (until Gus (or other replacement) craps the bed)? Does he get a "warning shot" benching of a game or two regardless of the performance of his replacement? What is the next step? Is Gus then given the spot indefinitely? We obviously know you don't like the idea of Gus getting benched after one bad game, but how about two? Three? Are they in a row? If Gus gets benched and Grossmann only plays "ok" in his return, is he going to get randomly benched in favor of Gus? Do you ever consider a guy's past performance or is it only the current season (more time than that?, less time than that?)?
Why does it need to be a formula? You're trying really hard to make something simple into something complex.

Gus has outplayed Grossmann. He makes Luke Schenn into a better player. So, play him. It's that simple. If he starts to suck and isn't showing signs of turning it around, give Grossmann his shot again. This isn't rocket science.


By the way, it's ~27 good games by Gus. It's not ~63 good games for Grossmann. He's been underwhelming or flat out bad since November. It's also comical that Gus has only played 27 games despite being better than half the D corps every time he plays. GP does nothing to help your argument, since the whole problem here is that Gus hasn't played more games.

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03-10-2014, 12:28 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But what you are talking about isn't what is going on. What you are arguing for is for Gus to be given a chance to prove he is superior, unless you are going to tell me that Gus's last 27 games vs. Grossmann's last 63 games tells the tale, at which point I would vehemently disagree and revert to my argument that it is at least as likely that Grossmann rebounds than it is that Gus continues or improves.

If Gus deserves a shot to keep his spot, why doesn't Grossmann deserve a shot to get it back? Like I said in my last post to a different user...at what point does Gus lose the spot? Is it his spot now because he is 25 and Grossmann is 29 and is slumping? How many bad games would it take for Gus to lose the job to Grossmann? And so forth and so on. I'd like to hear an answer to those questions, because if you can convince me that there is a method to your plan then I can come around to your position.
Grossmann has never lost his spot even though he has been our worst defender for the whole season. The only time I can remember that he hasn't played in his time here in Philly is when he has been injured. In the games Gus has played this season, he has been exponentially better than Grossmann which isn't saying much. Gus should be given the opportunity to be in the lineup over Grossmann for an extended period of time (at least 10 games). And he should keep that spot until he plays as bad has Grossmann has for the last 60 games, which probably won't happen since Grossmann isn't even playing like an NHL defender

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03-10-2014, 12:28 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I think I recall some teams icing 7 dmen a game if they are short on forwards, maybe I'm wrong.
Yeah, but I don't ever recall teams carrying eight D for an entire season? I think the Leafs might be doing it this season, but that's all I can think of.

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03-10-2014, 12:32 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Why does it need to be a formula? You're trying really hard to make something simple into something complex.

Gus has outplayed Grossmann. He makes Luke Schenn into a better player. So, play him. It's that simple. If he starts to suck and isn't showing signs of turning it around, give Grossmann his shot again. This isn't rocket science.


By the way, it's ~27 good games by Schenn. It's not ~63 good games for Grossmann. He's been underwhelming or flat out bad since November. It's also comical that Gus has only played 27 games despite being better than half the D corps every time he plays.
But there has to be some method to your thinking. Simply saying "Gus is better" is not really a solution to anything (nor is it wise IMO to call a player better based on a small sample size). I know you don't have blind loyalty to anyone as you are putting it, but are we treating all players equal? That is why I am asking these questions. If Grossmann loses his job because he has been bad since November, fine. But how long does Gus have to lose the job? He doesn't have the track record of Grossmann, but should he be given the same amount of time to lose the job? Is everyone at risk for this type of situation? If Coburn were sucking this season, does Gus replace him? And so forth and so on.

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03-10-2014, 12:33 PM
  #265
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The blindingly obvious answer to the Great Grossmann-Gustafsson Dilemma is to dress Gus as a 7th defenseman instead of wasting a seat on the bench in the form of Rosewood.

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03-10-2014, 12:36 PM
  #266
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Put Gus on Giroux's wing lol

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03-10-2014, 12:37 PM
  #267
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Put Gus on Giroux's wing lol
Gus probably wouldn't play as bad as Vinny on Schenn's wing

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03-10-2014, 12:47 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But there has to be some method to your thinking. Simply saying "Gus is better" is not really a solution to anything (nor is it wise IMO to call a player better based on a small sample size). I know you don't have blind loyalty to anyone as you are putting it, but are we treating all players equal? That is why I am asking these questions. If Grossmann loses his job because he has been bad since November, fine. But how long does Gus have to lose the job? He doesn't have the track record of Grossmann, but should he be given the same amount of time to lose the job? Is everyone at risk for this type of situation? If Coburn were sucking this season, does Gus replace him? And so forth and so on.
OK.


So how many more games of Grossmann sucking and Gus outplaying him does it take for you take call for putting Grossmann in the press box?

I think we should establish that first, because it looks like you have some thoroughly unrealistic expectations, and on the surface it looks like any organization using your criteria would never, ever be able to develop their own dmen because those young guys would never, ever be allowed to play, because they could never, ever get a chance to prove themselves.

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03-10-2014, 12:53 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
OK.


So how many more games of Grossmann sucking and Gus outplaying him does it take for you take call for putting Grossmann in the press box?

I think we should establish that first, because it looks like you have some thoroughly unrealistic expectations, and on the surface it looks like any organization using your criteria would never, ever be able to develop their own dmen because those young guys would never, ever be allowed to play, because they could never, ever get a chance to prove themselves.
I've already said I would have no problem with Grossmann getting benched. My problem is sticking a fork in him and handing the job over to Gus because he's having a down year and because Gus has played well for 27 games (I know, I know, Gus's other 60 games were just as good! (also, ignore Grossmann's prior games though because he is 29 maybe)). It sounds great: young, cheap, kid outplays veteran defenseman. But there are potential downfalls to just going with that. I know it is crazy, but sometimes guys have down years, and sometimes guys don't develop into the players we want them to or think they will.

Let's trade Grossmann. Now we have Gus. Oh, he's starting now and playing full time and he's not playing well. I wish we had Grossmann but we traded him because he had a down year and Gus played well for a short time. Nah...that could never happen.

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03-10-2014, 12:56 PM
  #270
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I've already said I would have no problem with Grossmann getting benched. My problem is sticking a fork in him and handing the job over to Gus because he's having a down year and because Gus has played well for 27 games (I know, I know, Gus's other 60 games were just as good! (also, ignore Grossmann's prior games though because he is 29 maybe)). It sounds great: young, cheap, kid outplays veteran defenseman. But there are potential downfalls to just going with that. I know it is crazy, but sometimes guys have down years, and sometimes guys don't develop into the players we want them to or think they will.

Let's trade Grossmann. Now we have Gus. Oh, he's starting now and playing full time and he's not playing well. I wish we had Grossmann but we traded him because he had a down year and Gus played well for a short time. Nah...that could never happen.
Wow, you really, REALLY are making this far harder than it has to be.

It's literally this simple:

-Player plays bad, bench. Replacement comes in.
-Replacement bad? Bench. Player comes in.
-Player still worse? Crap. Go back to Replacement.


With the Flyers, it's a little less logical.

-Player Bad? Play.
-Player seriously, seriously bad? Fine, bench.
-Replacement good? Bench.
-Player still bad? Play.
-Overpay in trade or FA for equivalent of Replacement to get rid of Player.

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03-10-2014, 01:18 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Wow, you really, REALLY are making this far harder than it has to be.

It's literally this simple:

-Player plays bad, bench. Replacement comes in.
-Replacement bad? Bench. Player comes in.
-Player still worse? Crap. Go back to Replacement.


With the Flyers, it's a little less logical.

-Player Bad? Play.
-Player seriously, seriously bad? Fine, bench.
-Replacement good? Bench.
-Player still bad? Play.
-Overpay in trade or FA for equivalent of Replacement to get rid of Player.
Ok so because you haven't answered my question, can I assume that you are telling me that all players to be treated the same? You seem to have an affinity for youth...what if Couturier were playing poorly? Do you bench him? For how long? Do you send him down to the minors or just bench him? This is why I want to know your answers to these questions. To me it sounds like you only want to apply these standards/scenarios to certain players, yet you say you don't. If you do, explain why certain players are to be treated this way and why certain players are not to be treated this way. I have explained why I feel vets should be given the deference they are given. You don't like it but at least I have given a reason. You however, seem to not want to answer me, which leads me to speculate as to how you would work this out, which will undoubtedly lead to you being upset with this post for putting words in your like saying it seems like you only want to apply this to certain players or that you would bench Couturier or whatever.

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03-10-2014, 01:19 PM
  #272
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According to DrinkFightFlyers,

Grossmann hurts the team and gives them a lower chance to win every night, but he should play because he's played better in past years.

Gustaffson helps the team and gives them a better chance to win every night, but he should be benched because he hasn't played much in past years.

That's some seriously flawed logic right there.

The job of the coach is to win games and get the team to the playoffs, not to have a long term plan to get one bad player to get back to being average at the expense of the present day team.

This isn't Giroux we're talking about here, this isn't a player absolutely vital to the teams success that must regain his past form. Grossmann is hurting the team right now and letting him continue to do that isn't worth the potential benefits of him getting back to being merely average.

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03-10-2014, 01:37 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
According to DrinkFightFlyers,

Grossmann hurts the team and gives them a lower chance to win every night, but he should play because he's played better in past years.

Gustaffson helps the team and gives them a better chance to win every night, but he should be benched because he hasn't played much in past years.

That's some seriously flawed logic right there.

The job of the coach is to win games and get the team to the playoffs, not to have a long term plan to get one bad player to get back to being average at the expense of the present day team.

This isn't Giroux we're talking about here, this isn't a player absolutely vital to the teams success that must regain his past form. Grossmann is hurting the team right now and letting him continue to do that isn't worth the potential benefits of him getting back to being merely average.
I have repeatedly said I don't care if Grossmann gets benched or if Gus plays. I just don't agree with people's willingness to get rid of a guy or permanently bench him or whatever because Gus has played well for 27 games. You want to bench Grossmann, great. Bench him. But when Gus has a bad game or a bad stretch, if the coach wants to go back to the proven vet, be my guest. Don't whine and say "it's not fair he played so well the other day why is he being punished for his mistakes when another guy isn't?!" The reason is what I have been saying...he doesn't have the track record. He hasn't earned the right to be given that extra chance.

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03-10-2014, 01:38 PM
  #274
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Ok so because you haven't answered my question, can I assume that you are telling me that all players to be treated the same? You seem to have an affinity for youth...what if Couturier were playing poorly? Do you bench him? For how long? Do you send him down to the minors or just bench him? This is why I want to know your answers to these questions. To me it sounds like you only want to apply these standards/scenarios to certain players, yet you say you don't. If you do, explain why certain players are to be treated this way and why certain players are not to be treated this way. I have explained why I feel vets should be given the deference they are given. You don't like it but at least I have given a reason. You however, seem to not want to answer me, which leads me to speculate as to how you would work this out, which will undoubtedly lead to you being upset with this post for putting words in your like saying it seems like you only want to apply this to certain players or that you would bench Couturier or whatever.
Is there a player on the bench who is better than Couturier? If so, then yes, he should play over him.

But, that's not important or relevant to this discussion. This is: Gus has shown nothing but competence whenever he plays. Grossmann has been terrible for 4 months now.

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03-10-2014, 01:44 PM
  #275
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Is there a player on the bench who is better than Couturier? If so, then yes, he should play over him.
Ok see that is a different argument than you were seemingly making. Just so I have it clear, you are willing to bench players only if there is a better player, not if a player is just playing better? Is that the argument?

Quote:
But, that's not important or relevant to this discussion. This is: Gus has shown nothing but competence whenever he plays. Grossmann has been terrible for 4 months now.
You are willing to throw away an entire body of work based on the last four months? Back to my above quoted text, what if Couturier sucks for the next four months? Do we just leave him in there because there isn't a "better" player or does Holmstrom (or someone) get a shot?

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