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Old
02-28-2013, 11:18 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by vespa99 View Post
Im amused by the fact that every trade proposal with Phili is met with protests of how the Phili player is fantastic and going no where, yet the Flyers are still no good. How does that work?
Is Eberle any good? Hall? RNH? Yet the Oilers still stuck. And have for years. This is Philly's worst season in 6 years. Have some context please.

The real issue here is Couturier to Edm solves a problem for the Oilers. But Gagner, Hemsky, Petry, etc...solves NOTHING for Philly. How is that hard to see. Does Philly get a potential #1 D-man? NOPE! Therefore, solves nothing. These teams are not good trading partners. We have similar strengths for F.

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02-28-2013, 11:21 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by vespa99 View Post
Im amused by the fact that every trade proposal with Phili is met with protests of how the Phili player is fantastic and going no where, yet the Flyers are still no good. How does that work?
Because people aren't asking to trade for our crappy players, just our good ones that we aren't looking to give away. Are you guys looking to sell Eberle and Yakupov just because the oilers are terrible?

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02-28-2013, 11:39 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
I don't think Petry + 1st is the same value that Pittsburgh got for staal.

Penguins got :

Brandon Sutter. Better defensively than Staal and perfect for the 3rd line center spot
Brian Dumoulin. Future top 4 d man
8th overall (Derrick Pouliot) Potential top pairing D man though they could have gotten Trouba or Forsberg and gotten better value for the pick

You're offering :
Petry - Probably not slotting into our top 4 until Meszaros is moved
1st (Currently 7th now. +/-2 brings it to 5th to 9th) As of the players expected to go there, only Zadorov, Nurse, and Nichushkin really interest me and none are going to slot in for a few years time.
Good analysis. You're also forgetting (or at least you forgot to add to your post) that Jordan Staal was a pending UFA the year he was traded and that the Penguins had no room really to re-sign him as the #3C. He had to be moved.

People are also ignoring that Staal was moved at the end of his RFA years. The years of him being a "good value" were/are over. He's getting 6M per year for 10 years. Couturier is on a 900k ELC for 2 more years and after that, he'll be an RFA.

Selling Sean Couturier to the EDM Oilers primarily for a 7th overall draft pick would be an insanely stupid thing for the Flyers to do. Doing so WHILE THE SEASON IS GOING ON and that draft pick's value is in flux would just compound that stupidity. We'd be solving one of the massive holes on the Oilers and we'd be lucky for that pick to remain in the top 10.

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02-28-2013, 11:55 AM
  #79
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If the Oilers are drafting in the top 5, I could see something happening between the Flyers and the Oilers @ the draft, like something around Drouin and Couturier.

From a team needs perspective, it would make sense. The Oilers already have 3 top/elite wingers (or guys who are well on their way to becoming elite wingers), while the Flyers could use another upper echelon winger.

And while Couturier is very important to the Flyers' defense, he has too much talent to be kept only in a 3rd line shutdown role and with Laughton coming over to the Flyers next year, Couturier could be moved. And obviously, the Oilers would love to acquire a good 2 way center like Couturier.

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02-28-2013, 12:04 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Good analysis. You're also forgetting (or at least you forgot to add to your post) that Jordan Staal was a pending UFA the year he was traded and that the Penguins had no room really to re-sign him as the #3C. He had to be moved.

People are also ignoring that Staal was moved at the end of his RFA years. The years of him being a "good value" were/are over. He's getting 6M per year for 10 years. Couturier is on a 900k ELC for 2 more years and after that, he'll be an RFA.

Selling Sean Couturier to the EDM Oilers primarily for a 7th overall draft pick would be an insanely stupid thing for the Flyers to do. Doing so WHILE THE SEASON IS GOING ON and that draft pick's value is in flux would just compound that stupidity. We'd be solving one of the massive holes on the Oilers and we'd be lucky for that pick to remain in the top 10.
Him turning down the 10 year 60m contract was just him making it obvious that he wasn't going to sign there and was only interested in going to Carolina.

As we saw with the Nash situation, if a player is only picking one place to go, his value drops.

They probably turned down bigger offers do to him a favor

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
If the Oilers are drafting in the top 5, I could see something happening between the Flyers and the Oilers @ the draft, like something around Drouin and Couturier.

From a team needs perspective, it would make sense. The Oilers already have 3 top/elite wingers (or guys who are well on their way to becoming elite wingers), while the Flyers could use another upper echelon winger.

And while Couturier is very important to the Flyers' defense, he has too much talent to be kept only in a 3rd line shutdown role and with Laughton coming over to the Flyers next year, Couturier could be moved. And obviously, the Oilers would love to acquire a good 2 way center like Couturier.
The only draft-eligible player that I would want to see Couturier moved for would be Seth Jones. Both Drouin and MacKinnon have more offensive potential than Couturier, but it would open up a huge hole on the roster that were not even sure if Laughton can fill yet. Yes, finding a winger to keep up with Giroux is something to look at, but it's a luxury at this point. The offense will continue to produce, regardless of any added talent up front. Jones fills a much bigger need and he's worth potentially losing another key role for.

Once again, I'm not declaring that Couturier will be a better player than either Drouin or MacKinnon, but he will certainly play a more important role for the Flyers moving forward.

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02-28-2013, 12:07 PM
  #82
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I must say that I'm pleasently surprised and pleased with the fan talk in this thread.
Both fan bases are making solid points without resulting in attacks.
I also have to agree with the flyers fans. If couts gets traded to the oil we fill our need of a big strong two way center. What do the flyers get? They need a potential #1 or #2 d- man or a top 6 winger.
Oilers can't fulfill the first trade. So with that said and keeping in mind both teams needs perhaps the teams are talking about the following players( Whitney,couturier, Yakupov, grossman, Gagner, Petry, briere, and 1 st round picks)

Does Gagner+ Whitney work for briere?
Or a big Yakupov + 2nd for couturier + 1 st ?

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by spot View Post
I must say that I'm pleasently surprised and pleased with the fan talk in this thread.
Both fan bases are making solid points without resulting in attacks.
I also have to agree with the flyers fans. If couts gets traded to the oil we fill our need of a big strong two way center. What do the flyers get? They need a potential #1 or #2 d- man or a top 6 winger.
Oilers can't fulfill the first trade. So with that said and keeping in mind both teams needs perhaps the teams are talking about the following players( Whitney,couturier, Yakupov, grossman, Gagner, Petry, briere, and 1 st round picks)

Does Gagner+ Whitney work for briere?
Or a big Yakupov + 2nd for couturier + 1 st ?
It always nice to see threads where people can discuss things civilly.

Gagner + Whitney for Briere is overpayment by the Oilers. Briere isn't what he was even just a couple of years ago. He may pick it up come playoff time, but I'm not holding my breath even if we get there. There's some talk that he may be amnestied at the end of the year.

Yakupov + 2nd for Couturier + 1st is enticing, but I think they would pass. It just opens up too big of a hole for what would be a very nice luxury on an already high powered offense. Not trying to put down Yak though.

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02-28-2013, 12:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
It always nice to see threads where people can discuss things civilly.

Gagner + Whitney for Briere is overpayment by the Oilers. Briere isn't what he was even just a couple of years ago. He may pick it up come playoff time, but I'm not holding my breath even if we get there. There's some talk that he may be amnestied at the end of the year.

Yakupov + 2nd for Couturier + 1st is enticing, but I think they would pass. It just opens up too big of a hole for what would be a very nice luxury on an already high powered offense. Not trying to put down Yak though.
Briere has always had the ability to comback and surprise.
Also this oil team is sorely lacking vet leadership.
If Horcoff is bought out, we may need some help in that department.
In addition Whitney due to injuries and mobility issues is a shell of his former self.
He does still possess an elite first breakout pass however. Gagner after this season could be in
For a huge pay increase. 4-5 million/ season.

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by spot View Post
I must say that I'm pleasently surprised and pleased with the fan talk in this thread.
Both fan bases are making solid points without resulting in attacks.
I also have to agree with the flyers fans. If couts gets traded to the oil we fill our need of a big strong two way center. What do the flyers get? They need a potential #1 or #2 d- man or a top 6 winger.
Oilers can't fulfill the first trade. So with that said and keeping in mind both teams needs perhaps the teams are talking about the following players( Whitney,couturier, Yakupov, grossman, Gagner, Petry, briere, and 1 st round picks)

Does Gagner+ Whitney work for briere?
Or a big Yakupov + 2nd for couturier + 1 st ?
As a Flyers fan I'd think very hard about that second deal. I'd jump all over the first one but I don't think the Oilers would be too wild about it and I don't think Briere is going to waive (not just for the Oilers, for anybody).

The second one is interesting because of each teams needs. Flyers could use a scoring winger and Laughton doesn't have nearly the upside of Couturier but he can help replace his defensive play. Couturier would be a solid two way piece to compliment the offensive upside of Hall, Eberle, and RNH. The picks balance out the value disparity between the two pretty well.

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02-28-2013, 12:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
The only draft-eligible player that I would want to see Couturier moved for would be Seth Jones. Both Drouin and MacKinnon have more offensive potential than Couturier, but it would open up a huge hole on the roster that were not even sure if Laughton can fill yet. Yes, finding a winger to keep up with Giroux is something to look at, but it's a luxury at this point. The offense will continue to produce, regardless of any added talent up front.

The franchise potential of Jones should be the only piece that they should consider opening up another hole on the roster for. I would also feel a lot more comfortable doing it if they knew that Laughton could come in and take on the defensive assignments that Couturier seems to excel at. Once again, I'm declaring that Couturier will be a better player than either Drouin or MacKinnon, but he will certainly play a more important role for the Flyers moving forward.
Laughton plays a very good game in his own zone. I feel confident that he can take over a shutdown role for our team. He's done so successfully for the U17 team, the U18 team, and the Oshawa Generals at one time or another. Scouts comparisons range from Mike Richards (Selke finalist) to John Madden (Selke winner).

With that confidence, I'd be willing to move Couturier for someone like Jones (obviously) but there's no chance of that happening. But, if the Oilers are drafting in the top 5 and Drouin is the best player available, a trade around Couturier could make sense and as a Flyers fan, I'd 100% be willing to do it. Drouin is going to be special.

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02-28-2013, 12:49 PM
  #87
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If the Flyers are looking for a future top pairing dman I believe Klefbom could fit the bill. Easily the best d prospect the Oilers have had in a while.
Maybe a package of Klefbom + Petry + 1st would be enticing to the flyers. Not sure what that would return but Petry is playing in our top 4 right now so he could definitely help out the flyers, and Klefbom will probably be nhl ready as soon as next year

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02-28-2013, 12:50 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by spot View Post
Briere has always had the ability to comback and surprise.
Also this oil team is sorely lacking vet leadership.
If Horcoff is bought out, we may need some help in that department.
In addition Whitney due to injuries and mobility issues is a shell of his former self.
He does still possess an elite first breakout pass however. Gagner after this season could be in
For a huge pay increase. 4-5 million/ season.
Trust me, you don't want to give up Gagner for Briere. It would be a large overpayment. He's just not worth that type of return anymore.

And while you might gain some veteran leadership w/ Briere, you'd likely lose some regular season production. Briere's greatest value is that he "turns it on" during the playoffs. Unfortunately, that would likely be wasted this season in EDM.

Your second offer of Yakupov + 2nd for Couturier + 1st would be enticing. If both franchises agreed to wait until the offseason to make the deal, I think I'd probably do it. Just have to make sure that the Flyers' first doesn't end up a top 10 pick. If we make the playoffs and the pick is ~20th, I'd probably do it.

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02-28-2013, 12:52 PM
  #89
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The Briere deal would be a no brainer for Philly to do. Of course...that leaves them with Giroux, Schenn, Gagner, and Couturier as C depth....CRAZY!! Certainly Couts or Gagner would be moved of course. But yeah...overpayment by Edmonton of tha deal...and this is from a Flyers fan

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02-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Nugie Boy View Post
If the Flyers are looking for a future top pairing dman I believe Klefbom could fit the bill. Easily the best d prospect the Oilers have had in a while.
Maybe a package of Klefbom + Petry + 1st would be enticing to the flyers. Not sure what that would return but Petry is playing in our top 4 right now so he could definitely help out the flyers, and Klefbom will probably be nhl ready as soon as next year
Petry is top 4 in Edm...but #5 or 6 in Philly. Philly wants a real #1 that bumps everyone down a notch.

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02-28-2013, 01:02 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Nugie Boy View Post
If the Flyers are looking for a future top pairing dman I believe Klefbom could fit the bill. Easily the best d prospect the Oilers have had in a while.
Maybe a package of Klefbom + Petry + 1st would be enticing to the flyers. Not sure what that would return but Petry is playing in our top 4 right now so he could definitely help out the flyers, and Klefbom will probably be nhl ready as soon as next year
Brutal, trade most of Edmonton's D away plus a 1st, is too much of a over payment. It sounds like Edmonton has big plans with Klefbom and their not going to be trading him away.

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02-28-2013, 01:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Trust me, you don't want to give up Gagner for Briere. It would be a large overpayment. He's just not worth that type of return anymore.

And while you might gain some veteran leadership w/ Briere, you'd likely lose some regular season production. Briere's greatest value is that he "turns it on" during the playoffs. Unfortunately, that would likely be wasted this season in EDM.

Your second offer of Yakupov + 2nd for Couturier + 1st would be enticing. If both franchises agreed to wait until the offseason to make the deal, I think I'd probably do it. Just have to make sure that the Flyers' first doesn't end up a top 10 pick. If we make the playoffs and the pick is ~20th, I'd probably do it.
I must admit that I'm biased because I have always liked briere. He is money in the playoffs.
The oilers should not pay Gagner what he will be requesting after this season. Not because he is a bad player but because he does not fit on this already small team. My thought was to trade Whitney, and Gagner add briere and buy out Horcoff. I guess I'm thinking of a sequence of moves.
IMO- the oilers could only make the second deal( Yakupov) right now and not in the off season.
The risk for the flyers would be that there 1st could be a top 15 pick?

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02-28-2013, 01:06 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Trust me, you don't want to give up Gagner for Briere. It would be a large overpayment. He's just not worth that type of return anymore.

And while you might gain some veteran leadership w/ Briere, you'd likely lose some regular season production. Briere's greatest value is that he "turns it on" during the playoffs. Unfortunately, that would likely be wasted this season in EDM.

Your second offer of Yakupov + 2nd for Couturier + 1st would be enticing. If both franchises agreed to wait until the offseason to make the deal, I think I'd probably do it. Just have to make sure that the Flyers' first doesn't end up a top 10 pick. If we make the playoffs and the pick is ~20th, I'd probably do it.
I'm OK with this trade, helps out both teams, if I'm not mistaken this would be the Flyers 2014 1st and the Ducks 2013 2nd.

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02-28-2013, 01:14 PM
  #94
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I'm OK with this trade, helps out both teams, if I'm not mistaken this would be the Flyers 2014 1st and the Ducks 2013 2nd.
That is where it gets dicey. The 2014 Draft is in Philly so you would think they would want to keep the pick. I just think that if Philly shops Couturier, they would get an offer from a team that would better SUIT their need.

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02-28-2013, 01:18 PM
  #95
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I'm OK with this trade, helps out both teams, if I'm not mistaken this would be the Flyers 2014 1st and the Ducks 2013 2nd.
I think you are right. The oiler do not have there 2nd this year.
Both teams could really benefit from this deal. Flyers could look like this:
Hartnell - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds- Schenn - Yakupov
Gagne - Briere- Read
Rinaldo - Talbot - Fedetenko

And the oilers:
Hall RNH Hemsky
Gagner couturier Eberle
PRV Horcoff Jones
smyth Belanger Eager
Harti
Petrell
And 2 1st's in 2014

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02-28-2013, 01:21 PM
  #96
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Does Gagner+ Whitney work for briere?
Cap constraints are the only thing that wouldn't work on Philly's side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spot View Post
Or a big Yakupov + 2nd for couturier + 1 st ?
There is zero point in this. Simmonds, Hartnell, Read, Voracek...That's a substantial set of top 6 wingers. There's no need to add Yakupov.

Sure Yakupov has offense, but Couturier has elite defense. All things considered, I don't know that either team would trade them for each other straight up.

Adding the 1st to return for a 2nd makes no sense either. We're losing what we need (elite shut-down forward), adding what we don't need (top 6 winger), and dropping in the draft substantially when we need to draft defensemen.

No from Philadelphia.

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02-28-2013, 01:30 PM
  #97
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Cap constraints are the only thing that wouldn't work on Philly's side.



There is zero point in this. Simmonds, Hartnell, Read, Voracek...That's a substantial set of top 6 wingers. There's no need to add Yakupov.

Sure Yakupov has offense, but Couturier has elite defense. All things considered, I don't know that either team would trade them for each other straight up.

Adding the 1st to return for a 2nd makes no sense either. We're losing what we need (elite shut-down forward), adding what we don't need (top 6 winger), and dropping in the draft substantially when we need to draft defensemen.

No from Philadelphia.
Wow, really? Yakupov could slot up to the 1 st line replacing voracek. The you could trade voracek for defence. Yakupov is a 1 st overall pick. Potential 50 goal scorer. I thought the value was there?

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02-28-2013, 01:33 PM
  #98
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Wow, really? Yakupov could slot up to the 1 st line replacing voracek. The you could trade voracek for defence. Yakupov is a 1 st overall pick. Potential 50 goal scorer. I thought the value was there?
The value is there, but this is a trade we do AFTER we've established Voracek for a defenseman.

Until that happens, if it happens, this trade really does nothing to help the Flyers.

It's all nice to say, "just go trade Voracek for a defenseman," but it's a completely different issue in practice.

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02-28-2013, 01:37 PM
  #99
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I think you are right. The oiler do not have there 2nd this year.
Both teams could really benefit from this deal. Flyers could look like this:
Hartnell - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds- Schenn - Yakupov
Gagne - Briere- Read
Rinaldo - Talbot - Fedetenko

And the oilers:
Hall RNH Hemsky
Gagner couturier Eberle
PRV Horcoff Jones
smyth Belanger Eager
Harti
Petrell
And 2 1st's in 2014
The Oilers don't have their 2013 3rd, but they still have their 2013 2nd.

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02-28-2013, 01:46 PM
  #100
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Some of these offers are just crazy:
Yak and 2nd for Couturier and PHI 1st
Yak is going to be a lot better player than Cout and the switch in picks does not justifiy the switch.
Couturier is playing on the 3rd lilne. You guys way over value him. I would say Couturier is worth Petry and prospect or pick.
I would say something around Petry, Belanger(replaces Cout on the 3rd line) and a decent prospect. That is all that he is worth. He is stuck behind Giroux and Schenn.

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