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Waco raid - 20 years ago today - has your perspective changed?

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Old
03-02-2013, 10:10 PM
  #51
slip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylizer1 View Post
Facts this, facts that.......get a life.

Do us all a favour and make stuff up.
It's actually a fascinating topic. Too bad some posters immediately tune out because they've been conditioned to associate criticism of Waco with right wing nut jobbery. But that's because they've succumbed to the noise of the corporate news machine (alas, am I being cynical when I point out that a few companies control the vast majority of news distribution networks?).

Again, it all pivots on the question of state power and it's monopoly on "legitimate" or sanctioned violence. Does that make Marx a wingnut? How about Foucault? Malcolm X? Each in their own way engaged in a similar critique. I don't see how/why a rigorous questioning of state power -- especially when it so egregiously crosses the line into sheer brutality -- makes us all Alex Jonses or crazed conspiracists. One imagines the ability to engage in such questioning as lurking at the core of any meaningful democratic structure.

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03-03-2013, 12:33 AM
  #52
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Here's a brief synopsis of some of the undisputed facts:

In the days leading up to the final assault on April 19, tanks and Bradley vehicles clear bikes, vehicles, toys, gocarts, and everything else from the outside perimeter of the building. The effect of this is to create a fire birm. If a fire breaks out, it will be contained.

On the morning of April 19, tanks punch holes into the wooden structure. The effect of this is similar to opening the vents on a potbelly stove. If a fire breaks out, it will burn hotter and faster.

Tanks introduce CS particulant into the building. While this is not flammable, the accelerant used to spread it, methylene chloride (Dichloromethane) is flammable. In other words, a flammable accelerant is pumped into the building for several hours preceding the fire.


Last edited by tape to tape: 03-03-2013 at 12:45 AM.
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03-03-2013, 02:24 PM
  #53
Stylizer1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip View Post
It's actually a fascinating topic. Too bad some posters immediately tune out because they've been conditioned to associate criticism of Waco with right wing nut jobbery. But that's because they've succumbed to the noise of the corporate news machine (alas, am I being cynical when I point out that a few companies control the vast majority of news distribution networks?).

Again, it all pivots on the question of state power and it's monopoly on "legitimate" or sanctioned violence. Does that make Marx a wingnut? How about Foucault? Malcolm X? Each in their own way engaged in a similar critique. I don't see how/why a rigorous questioning of state power -- especially when it so egregiously crosses the line into sheer brutality -- makes us all Alex Jonses or crazed conspiracists. One imagines the ability to engage in such questioning as lurking at the core of any meaningful democratic structure.
Some find it easier to analyze the headlines and study the propaganda.

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03-05-2013, 06:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Stylizer1 View Post
Some find it easier to analyze the headlines and study the propaganda.
What they fail to realise is that they are victims of social engineering. People that post memes are engaging in textbook astroturfing. Whether or not they are sock puppets or have simply followed the trend is irrelevant.

I Was a Paid Internet Shill: How Shadowy Groups Manipulate Internet Opinion and Debate

Millions Spent to Confuse Public About Geoengineering

U.S. military says Metal Gear sock puppets are real

Online astroturfing gets sophisticated

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03-05-2013, 05:28 PM
  #55
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Of course they were burned out. To believe otherwise is to believe in fairy tales.

You think our government doesn't do **** like that?
Of course they do.

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04-19-2013, 03:17 AM
  #56
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Today is the 20th anniversary of the final assault.

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04-19-2013, 05:06 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Again, it all pivots on the question of state power and it's monopoly on "legitimate" or sanctioned violence.
I'd just like to hear your alternative to this. In what situations should citizens be allowed to engage in "legitimate" violence and the police not be? Arrests? Incarcerations? Executions? (Are there other forms of "legitimate" sanctioned violence?)

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04-19-2013, 12:32 PM
  #58
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Disgusting thing that went down there ... I dont give a **** what anybody thinks.

The US GOV literally gave ok to bombing and burning children alive ...

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04-19-2013, 12:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN88 View Post
Disgusting thing that went down there ... I dont give a **** what anybody thinks.

The US GOV literally gave ok to bombing and burning children alive ...
Except they didn't. All evidence except for a few anecdotal accounts from survivors of the event says it was started by the Branch Davidians, not the authorities.

Waco was mishandled and the FBI and others deserve some of the blame, but to state they actively killed the people that day is, typically for you, completely wrong.

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04-19-2013, 03:34 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN88 View Post
Disgusting thing that went down there ... I dont give a **** what anybody thinks. :
I agree Koresh was a disgusting blight on humanity

ATF handled the situation badly (As was case at Ruby Ridge as well) ,,, But the ultimate blame for every death falls on Koresh and his people

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04-19-2013, 03:42 PM
  #61
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I put it on the same level as the Warren Commission, incompetently done, but that doesn't mean there's a conspiracy.

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04-19-2013, 05:46 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by kov View Post
I'd just like to hear your alternative to this. In what situations should citizens be allowed to engage in "legitimate" violence and the police not be? Arrests? Incarcerations? Executions? (Are there other forms of "legitimate" sanctioned violence?)
I'm not interested in putting forth an alternative. I was attempting to situate the actions of T. McVeigh in the context of his perception of the government's egregious attack on the Branch Dividians. He's not the first to question and react to state power, and he certainly won't be the last.

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04-19-2013, 09:05 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN88 View Post
yup.


To clear it up, what Epsilon and Co wont care about anyhow. The Establishment is supposed to be active in satanic cult and okkultism. Like the Skull & Bones fraterity at Yale for example.

The way I understand it the people at Wako were strong believers, maybe depicted by the media as a christian extremism ... they believed in a conspiracy by Satan through the "government"

Sacrificial death is not uncommon. TuPac, Biggie, Aliya ... it is out there
wut?

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Old
04-20-2013, 04:38 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
wut?
Oh, you have not met NYRFAN88? He is our resident crackpot. There isn't a conspiracy theory in existence that he doesn't believe in. Once you realize he isn't to be taken seriously, he provides a lot of entertainment.

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04-20-2013, 07:38 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
wut?
It is quite simple. In order to achieve even bigger wealth and celebrety status, many have sacrificed people to dark powers.

I believe that Puffy sacrificed Biggie. Before BIggies death Puff was his *****, after that BOOM hes one of the richest most successful mofos out there.

Aliya was engaged to Diamond Dash (correct name? You know Rockawear, JAy-Zs partner.) He sacrificed her. As did the Jacksons with Micheal.

These are dark dark secrets. You want me to be the looney, fine. Np, you're all harmless.

It just makes more sense to me ... on the other side humans always try to figure **** out they dont understand, this is my way of doing it ...

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05-01-2013, 01:37 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Except they didn't. All evidence except for a few anecdotal accounts from survivors of the event says it was started by the Branch Davidians, not the authorities.

Waco was mishandled and the FBI and others deserve some of the blame, but to state they actively killed the people that day is, typically for you, completely wrong.
...lmao anecdotal accounts, how about 5 separate expert evaluations of the FLIR video that conclude that gunfire was being directed into the buildings as the fire began...anecdotal accounts, if you mean survivors that claimed they were being shot at as they tried to escape the fire...

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05-01-2013, 02:42 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN88 View Post
It is quite simple. In order to achieve even bigger wealth and celebrety status, many have sacrificed people to dark powers.

I believe that Puffy sacrificed Biggie. Before BIggies death Puff was his *****, after that BOOM hes one of the richest most successful mofos out there.

Aliya was engaged to Diamond Dash (correct name? You know Rockawear, JAy-Zs partner.) He sacrificed her. As did the Jacksons with Micheal.

These are dark dark secrets. You want me to be the looney, fine. Np, you're all harmless.

It just makes more sense to me ... on the other side humans always try to figure **** out they dont understand, this is my way of doing it ...

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Old
05-01-2013, 06:20 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape to tape View Post
...lmao anecdotal accounts, how about 5 separate expert evaluations of the FLIR video that conclude that gunfire was being directed into the buildings as the fire began...anecdotal accounts, if you mean survivors that claimed they were being shot at as they tried to escape the fire...
Source?

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05-01-2013, 12:51 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Source?
Correction, there are 4 separate reports that conclude the FLIR flashes are gunfire.

You may be able to find these online, the info moves around quite a bit as sites get deleted...

1. Dr. Allard's sworn affidavit.
- concludes FLIR flashes can only be gunfire
2. Infraspection Institute FLIR analysis report for CBS' 60 Minutes.
- report concurs with Dr. Allard's findings...is never shown on 60 minutes...
3. Maurice Cox' special report entitled Sun Reflection Geometry.
- report concludes FLIR flashes are gunfire.
- challenges official explanation that flashes are sunlight reflections, aircraft would have to travel at mach 1.8...
4. Report to Congress on Infrared Footage at Waco by Carlos Ghigliotti.
- hired by FBI to discredit other reports
- is given first generation video
- concludes FLIR flashes are gunfire directed at building

Quote:
11:24:16 to 36: shots from two locations into hole made by CEV in gym.
11:24:50 to 11:25:04 apparent return fire from inside of gym.
11:26:13 to 11:26:27 additional return fire. If the dark objects behind the tank are indeed shooters, this may have pinned them down. Following this, the tank backs over the dark spots.
11:26:39 "One of the two unknown subjects is clearly visible exiting out of the hole in the front wall of the gym which the tank previously made. The unknown subject turns to the right into the courtyard."
11:28:04 to 11:28:14: gunfire from this person's approximate position, directed toward building.
11:28:18 to 11:28:22: return fire from structure.
11:30:09 to 11:30:15: gunfire from shooter in courtyard, toward building.
11:33:51: gunfire between gym wall and swimming pool, into the structure. The infrared signature of these shots differs from those seen earlier in courtyard area.
11:34:32: one shot at unknown subject that is running and hiding between gym and swimming pool. [This may be the one he showed me]
11:38:34: unknown subject is seen hiding in front of tank.
11:43:36 to 11:59:03: gunshots from 2d story of building directed at tank (I believe he is here referring to the tank penetrating the front).
12:03:59: An unknown subject appears next to the tank in rear of structure.
12:07:42: fire is visible in 2nd story tower.
12:08:12: Unknown subject comes out of tank and shows up at 12:08:51 shooting at another unknown subject that appears at 12:08:34.
12:08:31 to 12:08:32: "A cluster of thermal anomalies appears at the corner of the gym."
12:08:34 and 12:08:44: unknown subject runs from the area where the thermal anomalies were seen, hops over rubble, and hides in gym.
12:08:51: automatic gunfire into area where previous subject hides.
12:10:41 to 12:11:15 numerous rounds shot from center of courtyard, directed at structure.

Past this point, nothing of importance since fire overloads FLIR, but visible media and the soundtrack of FLIR indicates that gunfire did continue. He notes that events at 11:24:31, 11:24:35 and 11:28:14 may have involved more than one shot. He notes that a pattern was apparent: Davidian return fire only occurred following penetration of the building by an armored vehicle. "Total number of events that occurred between 10:41:57 and 12:16:13: 198."
Dr. Allard discusses his findings in Waco - A New Revelation
at 56:10 and 1:01:50. The Maurice Cox report is discussed at 1:03:30.



major case #80 Assault on a federal officer briefing for the attorney general April 12, 1993

Quote:
the assault plan called for demolition of the building and permission to shoot streams of automatic weapons fire into the building to support an armoured vehicle's approach.
In summary, what these reports are telling you is that when the tank enters the gymnasium, it is accompanied by soldiers firing automatic weapons.


The above pic shows the tank entering the gymnasium. There are two soldiers (black dots) firing (flashes) into the building in support. Standard military procedure.

When the fires break out, congregation members that try to escape the fire through the rear dining room doors are gunned down by federal agents outside of the building. The flashes in the below picture are evidence of this, according to the 4 FLIR reports.



Last edited by tape to tape: 05-01-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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05-01-2013, 01:16 PM
  #70
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2 hour Youtube video? Lol didn't watch.

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Old
05-01-2013, 01:26 PM
  #71
tape to tape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
2 hour Youtube video? Lol didn't watch.
The discussion of the FLIR video is at 1:01:50. The Maurice Cox report is discussed at 1:03:30.

Dr. Allard discusses shots from the helicopter at 56:10.


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05-01-2013, 01:27 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape to tape View Post
*Snip*
Thanks.

Are you aware that there are 3 sources that say that the flashes were what the official story states, and a 4th that says it is unclear?:

1. Dr Don Frankel of Photon Research Associates

2. Maryland Advanced Development Laboratory (No link available anymore)

3. Vector Data Systems

And this one that says the evidence isn't strong enough for any reasonable conclusion to be drawn.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find it hard to see this as a confirmed fact.

As well, can you source me the origin of the photograph at the bottom? I can find no official reference to it, so I confirm that any of the reports on the event state anything about it, let alone whether or not it is gun fire.

Lastly, regardless of all of this, though it is interesting for sure, none of this shows that the fire was started by the FBI, purposely or accidentally, as none of these reports state anything about the starting of the fires, simply whether video evidence shows guns being fired or not.

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05-01-2013, 01:50 PM
  #73
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These pics are from a 24 minute video that came with Waco - The Rules of Engagement, called Extra Infrared Footage. I used Vlc media player to capture the stills.

Here's a different 2 hour version of FLIR footage:



http://www.youtube.com/user/WacoSiege1993

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05-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape to tape View Post
These pics are from a 24 minute video that came with Waco - The Rules of Engagement, called Extra Infrared Footage. I used Vlc media player to capture the stills.

Here's a different 2 hour version of FLIR footage:



http://www.youtube.com/user/WacoSiege1993
I currently do not have access to youtube.

Answer me a simple question: is there any documented reference specific to the source of the highlight in the still you took and posted at the bottom of your post anywhere, or are you just stating that as it being seemingly the same as the more explicitly referenced initial assault image and the documented general reference from Edward Allard of "numerous rounds shot from center of courtyard, directed at structure"?

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05-01-2013, 02:18 PM
  #75
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Report to Congress on Infrared Footage at Waco by Carlos Ghigliotti.

That is the report quoted in the earlier post.

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