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Canadian Politics IV

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Old
03-27-2013, 10:26 AM
  #251
Gobias Industries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
I live adjacent to his riding, so let me say from personal experience: Mark Warawa is an awful, awful person. A real 'moral majority' throwback politician. I wish they didn't muzzle him like this but it's more than obvious his goal isn't 'research' here.
Yeah, part of me would prefer to let these guys speak and bring down the Conservatives a notch or two.

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03-27-2013, 01:13 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Yeah, part of me would prefer to let these guys speak and bring down the Conservatives a notch or two.
The right wing Christian fundie MPs (and there are several who are Liberals as well) have spoken in the past in the House and even introduced motions that Harper has voted against.

There are wack-a-doodle CPC MPs but they are out on the periphery of the political spectrum and easily dismissed as we saw with Conservative MP Stephen Woodworth's abortive (pun intended) attempt to re-write the law in the Criminal Code about when human life begins. It was voted down in the House of Commons and PM Harper voted against it as promised.

In 2008 a private member's bill by then Edmonton Conservative MP Ken App, The Unborn Victims of Crime Act, was introduced which sought to treat unborn babies as separate victims when their mothers are attacked or murdered. It was defeated. And PM Harper voted against it on the floor of the House of Commons as he clearly saw the real intent behind the bill - limit choice in abortion.

In December 2010, "Roxanne's Law," a bill proposed by Conservative Winnipeg MP Rod Bruinooge seeking to make coerced abortion a criminal office, was defeated. Again PM Harper voted against it. The Prime Minister said said clearly that his government wouldn't be supporting the bill and restated he wasn't interested in an abortion debate.

In April 2011 PM Harper said when Conservative MP Brad Trost earlier tried to revive the abortion debate in the guise of denying funding for Planned Parenthood, PM Harper clearly saw through the baffle gab -

"Very clearly I am against reopening that debate. That is my position, now and in the past five years as well, and as long as I am prime minister, we will not reopen the debate on abortion. We will leave the law as it stands."

"I'm not opening this debate (on abortion). I don't want it opened. I have not wanted it opened. I haven't opened it as Prime Minister. I'm not going to open it. The public doesn't want to open it. This is not the priority of the Canadian public or this government and it will not be."


When Woodworth announced his intended motion Justice Minister Justice Minister Rob Nicholson speaking for PM Harper and the government released a terse two line statement before Woodworth's news conference announcing his motion was even finished.

"Private member's motions are considered in accordance with the rules of Parliament. The prime minister has been very clear [that] our government will not reopen this debate."


The rallying cry of this small group of extremist MPs seems to be "You either stand with us or stand with the baby murderers."

And if these CPC members do not like the CPC party position, they are free to leave the party and sit as independents. Of course their chances of re-election would be slim and none if they do not run under the CPC banner.

Part of being a caucus is that you are subject to party discipline.
Conservative MP Mark Warawa is a "rogue member" and has to suffer the consequences of holding views contrary to his caucus, one of his caucus colleagues said Wednesday morning after Warawa complained he wasn't allowed to talk about abortion in the House of Commons.
...
Ontario Conservative MP Jay Aspin told reporters on the way into caucus that it's Warawa's problem he brought up an issue contrary to party policy.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has repeatedly said the Conservatives won't reopen the abortion debate.

'Rogue members' have to 'suffer the consequences'
Aspin says Warawa "needs to think about that and address his problem."

"If these rogue members want to do what they want to do, they have to suffer the consequences and that's all I have to say," Aspin said.

"He [Warawa] is a rogue member for this particular issue."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...on-motion.html

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Old
03-27-2013, 05:30 PM
  #253
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http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/03...n_2961948.html

Don't do it, Canadian provinces!!!

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Old
03-27-2013, 11:10 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
HMMMMM...

Somehow "Beaver Diplomacy" just does not have the same historical impact as "Panda Diplomacy", eh?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/video...ticle10308558/
Heh, bah, the panda just has a better PR firm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
I disagree, it was the Chinese ambassador, not the leader of their country so Harper could easily have sent Baird as the Minister of DFAIT to attend.

The sports team thing in the US is a tradition and they come to him, he does not go to them.


Your posts get better and better. You are now claiming that the the Canadian PM should no longer meet with the Chinese ambassador, like, because we're too important.

On top of that, you think spending time inflating the egos of athletes is more important than managing trades relations with world powers.

My God, and you call me stupid.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:05 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Who knows but either way he should have been in Ottawa to meet with the Idle no More youth. But hey I guess the Natives and youth in general of this country, their concerns for the environment are not as important as a couple of pandas.
Harper has this thing called a job. Something those protestors obviously don't. Maybe they should get one.

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03-28-2013, 04:42 AM
  #256
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Harper Government pulls Canada out of UN desertification convention - first country in the world to do so.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle10475872/

I have no idea what the real reason is here. Maybe it's an environmental thing; perhaps the UN committee is linking desertification to anthropogenic climate change? Perhaps the ongoing change in priorities of linking aid to trade rather than poverty? The action though is typical considering the Harper government's neo-con attitude towards the UN.

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03-28-2013, 05:08 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny LaRue View Post
Heh, bah, the panda just has a better PR firm.





Your posts get better and better. You are now claiming that the the Canadian PM should no longer meet with the Chinese ambassador, like, because we're too important.

On top of that, you think spending time inflating the egos of athletes is more important than managing trades relations with world powers.

My God, and you call me stupid.
You've changed your stance though. Three years ago you were praising Harper's hardline on China because of Tibet and human rights, trade be damned. I remember you were the no.1 pro-Tibet, anti-Beijing poster here; I also remember agreeing with you to some degree but I disagreed Harper was genuine on this topic. Harper officially changed his tune quietly for 'the athletic' Olympics, you were fairly quiet then. By now Harper has pulled a full 360 (for oil/economic reasons) and so have you (for partisan reasons I suppose). You have a right to change (only dinosaurs never adapt) and I'm just pointing this for the record that there is a very close correlation to the official CPC talking points and your own views. You knew that right?


Last edited by Puck: 03-28-2013 at 05:26 AM.
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Old
03-28-2013, 06:41 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny LaRue View Post

Your posts get better and better. You are now claiming that the the Canadian PM should no longer meet with the Chinese ambassador, like, because we're too important.

On top of that, you think spending time inflating the egos of athletes is more important than managing trades relations with world powers.

My God, and you call me stupid.
Wow now I am wondering if you really are stupid. As mentioned in the past I never called you stupid, I called one part of one of your replies stupid. You seem to not be able to see the difference. Also great job at twisting what I said to serve your needs, you would make a great Conservative marketing man, you would be good at creating attack adds it seems.

When did I say that the Canadian PM should not meet with the Chinese ambassador? I said in this case Baird, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, could have easily done the job allowing Harper to show that he cares about the needs of the Native population and of young people.

Also where exactly did I say that spending time inflating the ego of athletes is more important than trade relations of any kind? Just making things up I see.

Not sure how old you are but you seem to be really young and have never been in the real world, never held a real job, etc. You sound very much like someone that has led a sheltered life and just knows what he has read in books or see on tv.

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Old
03-28-2013, 06:43 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Harper has this thing called a job. Something those protestors obviously don't. Maybe they should get one.
How do they obviously don't? Please show me something that says they don't? Part of the Idle movement, and I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of it, includes the issue of native jobs, especially for youth.

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03-28-2013, 06:45 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
You've changed your stance though. Three years ago you were praising Harper's hardline on China because of Tibet and human rights, trade be damned. I remember you were the no.1 pro-Tibet, anti-Beijing poster here; I also remember agreeing with you to some degree but I disagreed Harper was genuine on this topic. Harper officially changed his tune quietly for 'the athletic' Olympics, you were fairly quiet then. By now Harper has pulled a full 360 (for oil/economic reasons) and so have you (for partisan reasons I suppose). You have a right to change (only dinosaurs never adapt) and I'm just pointing this for the record that there is a very close correlation to the official CPC talking points and your own views. You knew that right?
Because he seems to be your typical Conservative, bends as the winds blow and also does not seem to have an true opinion of his own. He was the same way on the geek board, he hated China, hated Apple and others for using Chinese workers and chastised them for their human rights record, etc. But over the last 6 months or so not a word about it anymore. Curious.

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03-28-2013, 07:11 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Because he seems to be your typical Conservative, bends as the winds blow and also does not seem to have an true opinion of his own. He was the same way on the geek board, he hated China, hated Apple and others for using Chinese workers and chastised them for their human rights record, etc. But over the last 6 months or so not a word about it anymore. Curious.
I didn't mean to pile on. I don't mind Johnny, he has been posting here for awhile. He keeps it clean and isn't dirty (although he does have a bad habit of reading extra into things that weren't said) . He does seem to try to think things out openly on the board but he lives in a conservative environment and I doubt he will ever break out of that bubble. Thome26 was another conservative poster here that has really grown up on this board. He's getting smarter and I've always wanted to tell him that I'm genuinely impressed with the development of his arguments. But he too will always be uber-con and we'll always disagree (he'll just get smarter at defending his position and be more stubborn ).


Last edited by Puck: 03-28-2013 at 07:19 AM.
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Old
03-28-2013, 08:15 AM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
I didn't mean to pile on. I don't mind Johnny, he has been posting here for awhile. He keeps it clean and isn't dirty (although he does have a bad habit of reading extra into things that weren't said) . He does seem to try to think things out openly on the board but he lives in a conservative environment and I doubt he will ever break out of that bubble. Thome26 was another conservative poster here that has really grown up on this board. He's getting smarter and I've always wanted to tell him that I'm genuinely impressed with the development of his arguments. But he too will always be uber-con and we'll always disagree (he'll just get smarter at defending his position and be more stubborn ).
Indeed I have nothing against Johnny but he seems to be pissed and continues to think I called HIM stupid a while back when I said the given argument was stupid. Comparing the abolition of the Senate with selling the Parliament Buildings and other Government of Canada buildings along the waterfront.

'Tis life I guess.

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03-28-2013, 08:34 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Harper Government pulls Canada out of UN desertification convention - first country in the world to do so.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle10475872/

I have no idea what the real reason is here. Maybe it's an environmental thing; perhaps the UN committee is linking desertification to anthropogenic climate change? Perhaps the ongoing change in priorities of linking aid to trade rather than poverty? The action though is typical considering the Harper government's neo-con attitude towards the UN.
And people wonder why we weren't voted into the Security Council.

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Old
03-28-2013, 08:37 AM
  #264
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle10476300/

Quote:
Mr. Harper managed to put a temporary lid on the dissent during a lengthy caucus meeting Wednesday where he defended his position, sources say.

The Prime Minister reminded his MPs he made a pledge to Canadians during the 2011 election: that his government would not reopen the abortion debate and that Conservatives wouldn’t bring forward legislation on the topic.

“He said he’s determined to keep his word to the people of Canada and he views this motion as tantamount to breaking the promise,” one source said.

“He vowed he would use whatever tools are at his discretion to prevent the abortion debate from being reopened.”

Conservative MPs had entered this weekly caucus meeting expecting a quarrelsome confrontation after several backbenchers had gone public Tuesday and complained their rights to speak for their constituents were being “taken away” by the PMO.

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03-28-2013, 08:44 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
I wish he hadn't muzzled these MPs. If nothing else, it would have given their constituents - and the Canadian public - a chance to see 1950s-style social conservatism make its return. It'd be funny if Harper refused to sign Warawa's nomination papers in 2015. Not that it'll happen, but it'd still be amusing.

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03-28-2013, 09:10 AM
  #266
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Many CPC views have changed on democratisation, openness, transparency in government, committee work, from the time they were in opposition. I hope the next party to power doesn't have a similar change of heart, when it's in their interest to do so. The only hope on that score IMO would be a minority setting where the minor partner holds the major partner's feet to the fire on their promises to the naive. Immediately. The longer they wait, the more they forget.

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03-28-2013, 09:59 AM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Many CPC views have changed on democratisation, openness, transparency in government, committee work, from the time they were in opposition. I hope the next party to power doesn't have a similar change of heart, when it's in their interest to do so. The only hope on that score IMO would be a minority setting where the minor partner holds the major partner's feet to the fire on their promises to the naive. Immediately. The longer they wait, the more they forget.
No kidding, looking back at their original platform on transparency is laughable now.


Last edited by Gobias Industries: 03-28-2013 at 10:44 AM.
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03-28-2013, 10:30 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
No kidding, looking back at their original platform is laughable now.
On some things but on the majority the CPC followed through or tried to do so.

Here is 2006 CPC platform:
http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes2006/le...rm20060113.pdf

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03-28-2013, 10:44 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
On some things but on the majority the CPC followed through or tried to do so.

Here is 2006 CPC platform:
http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes2006/le...rm20060113.pdf
Sorry, yeah I was speaking specifically to transparency and good governance.

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03-28-2013, 11:08 AM
  #270
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Just from a surface read of the CPC platform, they easily went ahead on the business, law and order and right-wing agenda stuff you'd really expect conservatives to push forward (aside from a huge flip flop on income trusts). On the procurements, accountability, openness, transparency dimension, they've really had a pullback.

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03-28-2013, 12:12 PM
  #271
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Re: The dissention in the CPC caucus. I'm with PM Harper, I don't support abortion but I really think that we shouldn't be speaking about it in the HOC nor should be an attempt by any MP to try to re-open it.

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03-28-2013, 02:49 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by bombers15 View Post
And people wonder why we weren't voted into the Security Council.
People who care to pay attention don't wonder.

The CPC's staunch pro-Israel stance had the entire Muslim world lining up to ensure Canada's defeat. That isn't really debated by anybody. Canada lost the crack-pot tin-can dictatorship vote along with the anti-Israel vote and the rest, as they say, was history.

Now a lot of people say that is a prime example of what is wrong with the CPC's foreign policy (losing credibility/worsening relations with the muslim world); but we all know what 'it' was when discussing what it was that Canada wasn't elected to the security council.

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03-28-2013, 03:11 PM
  #273
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Re: The dissention in the CPC caucus. I'm with PM Harper, I don't support abortion but I really think that we shouldn't be speaking about it in the HOC nor should be an attempt by any MP to try to re-open it.
Don't agree, this rules see, pretty clear that as a member Warawa has to right to his 1 minutes at some point. Harper should not be muzzling everything like this and he is because he fears the backlash from the right to chose side etc.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...wa-motion.html

Either way it is going to be appealed and he will likely get his time.

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03-28-2013, 03:14 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
No kidding, looking back at their original platform on transparency is laughable now.
Transparency is easy to campaign on. Once you win an election, it's a different story.

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03-28-2013, 03:24 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
You've changed your stance though. . . .
For one, everybody with a brain changes their opinions on various things from time to time. The whole 'you flip-floped' thing is something that really annoys me; being presently inconsistent or hypocritical is different from changing one's opinion on a topic.

To the point of the whole thing, I personally am not a fan of the extent to which the government seems to have abandoned the principled stance on the PRC of the first couple years of the Harper ministry.

I don't think it is any secret that Harper thought the small limitations to trade with the PRC, due to the more principled stand, could be offset by a conscious effort to grow trade with South America and other developing markets. With the relative weakening of the American market, they've basically accepted that 1) they need the Chinese market and 2) the rest of the world isn't going to hold the communists to account -and Canada does not yet have the influence to do so alone- so hoisting one's self on one's own petard is fairly irrational. At least that is my evaluation of what the situation is.

Outside of some lunatic-types that think we should go to war with the PRC or something like that, I don't know any serious person who is more anti-communist than I am. I am following with considerable interest the ongoing TPP negotiations as I think it represents the best possible counter-weight to the PRC. Long term, a person would probably like to see India involved in something like that as well.

Perhaps the one thing I would like to see more attention placed on India; be it trade, foreign aid, defense cooperation, etc. I would like to see India be our second priority (obviously the US is and will remain for the foreseeable future our most important priority) when it comes to all those things I just mentioned.

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