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Old
03-01-2013, 10:11 AM
  #426
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Wow... that is pretty sad. But then again it's USA Today, the newspaper literally written for people with a 6th grade reading level / education. Doesn't shock me that it's superficial in its reporting.
It looks like that is just a lame poll and Allen was simply reporting the results and not suggesting himself that Letang is a Norris candidate.

Kevin Allen is one of the rare few hockey writers I respect the hell out of (he was the first to report Staal wanted to play with his bro). Allen has been covering the sport since I started to play way back as a little kid in the mid 80s.

He made losing McMillian tolerable.

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03-01-2013, 10:13 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by sovietsanta87 View Post
Question....where is the other defenseman in that second picture? I see niskanen, but that other guy by the goal post is crosby....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...whj99VnA#t=76s

The other defenseman is Martin, who is in the faceoff circle to Fleury's right. Neal is out by Gleason at the blue line.

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03-01-2013, 10:14 AM
  #428
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That's why a sick part of me wants them to get blown out, just to highlight the problems on the team. Chances are they will win somehow and further prolong the inevitable.
Trust me the Pens very rarely win here, I wouldn't bet any money on our Pens tomorrow

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03-01-2013, 10:18 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by nhindian View Post
lol this board


FIRE EVERYONE!!!!!




....and replace them with whom?
No, Bylsma will suffice.

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03-01-2013, 10:19 AM
  #430
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Originally Posted by radapex View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...whj99VnA#t=76s

The other defenseman is Martin, who is in the faceoff circle to Fleury's right. Neal is out by Gleason at the blue line.
Yeah gotta say in the last few games other than his offensive contributions Martin has kind of sucked as well. Just all the other suckage going on with the team has kind of hidden it.

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03-01-2013, 10:20 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by radapex View Post
To help illustrate your point... the goal scorer is highlighted in each still.




Orpik said in the postgame, that you could cover the area they scored all four from with a blanket, maybe we should trade Nashville a 1st for Gill's snuggie.

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03-01-2013, 10:22 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
This is another stretch of games I said was coming, so I'm not close to being pissed or worried. I know it worked out for the Pens and Kings firing their coach mid season, but that is a pretty rare occurrence.

Win streaks. Meh.

Losing streaks. Meh.

Will DB figure it out and finally become a disciplinarian? I have no idea, but I'll wait and see before I lose my **** over it.

Will Shero realize now that Malkin and Crosby mask a lot of problems on this team and tweak the roster? See above.

It's easy to be confident in these guys when things are going well, but quite difficult to support them when things look bleak. I'm just being patient and letting these two try and figure things out.

It will take both of them working together to make this a championship team and if one of them doesn't do their part, it's pretty obvious what the end result will be.
What's the statute of limitations on this?

As I keep saying, we were having this same conversation 27 months ago in the Lindy Ruff thread. Many people preached patience, that Bylsma was a good young coach and would grow. Is there anything in the last 27 months to suggest that Bylsma has grown?

At some point, patience becomes an exemplar of the sunk cost effect. IMO, we're there, and we've been there for a little while now.

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03-01-2013, 10:25 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Those guys are underperforming but I wouldn't get rid of Engo unless we're getting someone else who can fight / send a real message, without being totally useless on the ice (most fighters). Otherwise this team will get abused even more than it has at times.

Also those names are not going ot shake anyone up even though most of them need to go. Trade an Orpik, then people will sit up and take notice. Of course if Martin is hurt now that's not a possibility, but I think we're nearing the point where Orpik's value is going to steadily drop the next few years. We could still get a very nice return for him + pick / prospect.




This has nothing to do with Shero and the mellowdrama doesn't help. We didn't just get our ***** handed to us by Florida and Carolina because Shero didn't acquire Semin last summer. There is an attitude problem in the room and an inability to adapt on the ice, and both of those problems land squarely on the coach.

Hopefully Shero has been keeping tabs on the coaches since last year's end of season and playoff meltdown. I don't ever expect him to say a word about the coaches as that would undermine them completely (so we won't see it coming if Disco is going to get the boot), but the only way I'm going to lose faith in Shero is if he continues to let leadership issues affect this team to the point we go into the playoffs cold, without any coaching change.


I say give Marc Crawford the reigns as an interim coach this spring and see if he can do some good things with the team going into the playoffs. If it doesn't work out you get another coach this summer. That's if we keep losing games like this.

Losing is one thing, losing on account of what appears to be a lack of urgency / motivation is another.




Standings out of context are irrelevant. Philly is slumping and the Rags started slow also. Where we are has as much to do with other teams' play as our own and in any case regular season record means squat as we found out the last few years.

People's reaction to the coaching go WAY back and are predicated on a lack of leadership and consistency with the team, and an inability to adapt to other teams' game plans on many occasions, all of which fall in the coach's responsibility basket.




The Canes when healthy are better than some people here give credit for but more improtantly we're not nearly as "elite" as some people assume us to be. We're missing some key ingredients that all great teams have, and it goes beyond just personnel issues.
There's a fine line there, CV. Leave the roster construction out of it. If this team has leadership issues and there are issues adapting, then, while that may fall primarily on the coach, Shero is his boss and thus in his own way culpable.

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03-01-2013, 10:25 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by vyktor View Post
Orpik said in the postgame, that you could cover the area they scored all four from with a blanket, maybe we should trade Nashville a 1st for Gill's snuggie.
That's pretty accurate. Every goal was scored from within a few feet of the crease. Prime scoring areas, and the first thing you learn to defend as a defensemen. We're looking at a breakdown of the most basic concept of defense.

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03-01-2013, 10:26 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
Has the media asked/written about Letang's PP struggles?
Is that question a joke? This isn't Toronto or New York.

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03-01-2013, 10:28 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Is that question a joke? This isn't Toronto or New York.
Team has had poor defensive coverage and effort multiple times this year.

Media's solution?

MARK EATON NEEDS TO PLAY.


If Mark Eaton is the answer, your question is hilariously bad.

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03-01-2013, 10:29 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
Wow this comment from thepensblog makes me appreciate the more critical eye on this board:

"The game sucked from the Penguins' point of view. However, there's no need for bridge jumping just yet. I don't know if it's just me, but I keep coming back to the lockout. It threw a major wrench into everything. I know this was game 21 and you'd think they'd have their **** together by now. But I think the evil lockout is still having an effect on a lot of teams. There was no long training camp to implement systems and develop good habits within those systems. There have been injuries. Teams are playing a lot of back-to-back games or games with just a day in between. Maybe they are pressing too much because of the shortened season and they know a brief losing streak could mean the difference between playoffs and no playoffs. I don't know. But this is the Penguins we're talking about. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Kunitz, Letang, Orpik, Fleury, Bylsma, Granato, Shero, freaking Lemieux. They all won't stand for mediocrity, which is how the past few games have gone. I'm very confident that the Penguins will get this ship righted. And look for Shero to make a splash at, or before, the deadline I think. "
2010 . . . Stanley Cup hangover, Fleury
2011 . . . Crosby and Malkin out
2012 . . . Crosby not himself, Fleury
2013 . . . The Evil Lockout

Well, now that this year's excuse is out of the way, shall we start speculating on what next year's excuse will be. (but only mildly so)

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03-01-2013, 10:32 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Team has had poor defensive coverage and effort multiple times this year.

Media's solution?

MARK EATON NEEDS TO PLAY.


If Mark Eaton is the answer, your question is hilariously bad.
All those media clowns talk about how Tomlin has looked as Steelers coach with the passage of time from the previous regime which, for better or worse, was about structure, discipline, and accountability.

What's funny is that they refuse to see the obvious parallel for the Penguins. I guess free food during games will do that.

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03-01-2013, 11:09 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
2010 . . . Stanley Cup hangover, Fleury
2011 . . . Crosby and Malkin out
2012 . . . Crosby not himself, Fleury
2013 . . . The Evil Lockout

Well, now that this year's excuse is out of the way, shall we start speculating on what next year's excuse will be. (but only mildly so)
The Hawks and Bruins are just getting hammered by this lockout haha. The funny part about that 'argument' too is that we have the scoring leader as well. It's like but even with Crosby leading the league the rest of our team is just THAT affected by the lockout!!!

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03-01-2013, 11:13 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
The Hawks and Bruins are just getting hammered by this lockout haha. The funny part about that 'argument' too is that we have the scoring leader as well. It's like but even with Crosby leading the league the rest of our team is just THAT affected by the lockout!!!
You know the old saying about excuses, right?

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:48 AM
  #441
DaveG
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I've heard a number of people say this over the years... what is it about him that's bad? Is he a chronic line-jumbler or something?
Among other things. He has been awful when it comes to developing young players during his time in Carolina. Most of the talent that's come up over the last decade has had their breakouts under Lavi (Eric Staal, Ward, Williams, Pitkanen) or Muller (Faulk, Tlusty). Skinner's the one exception to that and he basically had to force his way into the top 6 via his play. Offensively his big strategy is simply wearing other teams down in the offensive zone via puck possession and a heavy two-man high forecheck. It works when the teams have strong depth especially with good physical wingers. When it's working you get our 2002 season or 2009 season, but when it's not you get the start we had last season where the team had just 8 wins in in the first 25 games before making the coaching change.

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03-01-2013, 11:49 AM
  #442
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
What's the statute of limitations on this?

As I keep saying, we were having this same conversation 27 months ago in the Lindy Ruff thread. Many people preached patience, that Bylsma was a good young coach and would grow. Is there anything in the last 27 months to suggest that Bylsma has grown?

At some point, patience becomes an exemplar of the sunk cost effect. IMO, we're there, and we've been there for a little while now.
Has he grown as a coach in the last two years? Absolutely. I've seen a plethora of adjustments no one on here ever seems to mention.

Do I think he has grown enough as a coach to make this a championship team? Not right now.

I'm not concerned about the systems in place; I'm concerned about the execution. Everyone can focus on the stretch pass, zone coverage schemes and whatever things they nitpick about, which is fine. In the end, DB systems are sound enough to make this a very powerful team.

The reality is every system is flawed. There is a way to beat ANY system you can think of. However, the difference between talented teams and great teams is discipline.

This board can debate all of DB shortcomings, but his Achilles heel is that he refuses to make his vets accountable. That is something that can be corrected quite easily, if he has the stones to change.

That's why I think he can turn things around, because it isn't about him being incompetent. It is about losing his stubbornness. Stubborn people can change, incompetent people are hopeless.

For me, if he and Shero lead another playoff flame out this spring, DB should be fired and Shero should be put on notice.

That's where I stand.

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03-01-2013, 12:45 PM
  #443
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Late to the party but a few notes and one lightning rod...

- Borts. I am a big fan, but tonight he had some bad luck. Wasn't for lack of trying

- Analysis Paralysis - This team plays such rigid systems that when the face hardship they seem so completely lost. The team also looks like it is playing "unnatural" hockey. These are soft, improvable obs. i know, but i doubt i am alone in noticing the lack of emotion, conviction, chemistry in our on ice product. Pains me to say it, but i have come to really not like the brand of hockey we play these days. We need gordon bombay to cut ties with hendricks hockey, and come duck calling back.

- Letang for his ways. Others mentioned it but he is really a D bag on the ice. I am surprised he doesn't pay more for it. I want more toughness on the team, but what Tanger does with the cross checks every shift is not "tough". Nor does it seem effective

Lightning Rod: If i had to choose one, Crosby or Malkin, i would easily take Malkin at this point.
Sid just isn't as dynamic and while the points are coming, i don't see him taking over games anymore. Hopefully that changes. It's easy to get on Geno for the fly bys, but if i had to say which one has played the game more like a captain and leader it would be Geno. More emotion, more desire, more willingness to get his nose dirty. When Malkin plays you notice him in all 3 zones every shift. Disrupting plays, carrying the puck, creating.....Sid is just not at that level right now. He had a few shifts vs. philly were it looked like he was "back". but in the larger sample he has not looked like a generational talent. Last night, for example, E Staal looked far and away the best player on the ice. Geno is also of clear import to the PP. And, I have to think that if he had a competent winger on the 2nd line he would be leading the team in pts.

All things considered, losing streaks happen. This is still a good team that could make a run if the stars align. So i hold out hope.

Jiggy, well said on stubborn vs. incompetent. Hopefully one doesn't result in the other for HCDB long term.

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03-01-2013, 01:04 PM
  #444
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I don't know which of Letang/Niskanen to blame more. It's easy to put it on Nisky but Letang has been equally horrible, imo. I think both players are good players but they aren't a good D pair.
You can't put this on Nisky or Letang.
Martin, Orpik and Bort were equally terrible.Martin and Nisky were awful this game. Awful.
4th line was atrocious. 1st line was just bad. Coaching was simply pathetic in this one.
Plenty of blame to go around in this one.
How can you allow 3 goals in one period with the same exact play from the same exact spot without making a single adjustment??
Martin on the ice for 3 goals against, Vitale and Adams comedicly running into each other while both watching the puck, Carolina scores.

Anyhow, its not panic time. Our team made the Canes look like world beaters. Its not like there was a lack of effort or passion, just a huge display of carelessness, indecision and poor decisions all around.
People have bad games. It happens.
BTW, I feel that I should point out the few bright spots in the play of Dupuis, Kunitz, Jeffrey and Cooke. These guys played above average to good for the most part.

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03-01-2013, 01:12 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post

Anyhow, its not panic time. Our team made the Canes look like world beaters. Its not like there was a lack of effort or passion, just a huge display of carelessness, indecision and poor decisions all around.
People have bad games. It happens.
BTW, I feel that I should point out the few bright spots in the play of Dupuis, Kunitz, Jeffrey and Cooke. These guys played above average to good for the most part.
Nothing personal but i'm tired in general of this "we made a bad team look good" I hope the players aren't telling themselves that.

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:16 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Has he grown as a coach in the last two years? Absolutely. I've seen a plethora of adjustments no one on here ever seems to mention.

Do I think he has grown enough as a coach to make this a championship team? Not right now.

I'm not concerned about the systems in place; I'm concerned about the execution. Everyone can focus on the stretch pass, zone coverage schemes and whatever things they nitpick about, which is fine. In the end, DB systems are sound enough to make this a very powerful team.

The reality is every system is flawed. There is a way to beat ANY system you can think of. However, the difference between talented teams and great teams is discipline.

This board can debate all of DB shortcomings, but his Achilles heel is that he refuses to make his vets accountable. That is something that can be corrected quite easily, if he has the stones to change.

That's why I think he can turn things around, because it isn't about him being incompetent. It is about losing his stubbornness. Stubborn people can change, incompetent people are hopeless.

For me, if he and Shero lead another playoff flame out this spring, DB should be fired and Shero should be put on notice.

That's where I stand.
I think it's more arrogance than stubbornness TBH. It's always about "getting to their game" and ******** like that, but never about adjusting to what the other team is doing to beat their game.

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03-01-2013, 01:18 PM
  #447
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Really glad I've missed the last handful.

I am glad to see Dustin Jeffrey make a few people eat crow. Coaches included.

It's also an eye-opener to find out that Malkin is not, in fact, single-handedly to blame for all of the Pens' defensive woes. Whoda thunk it?!?

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03-01-2013, 01:30 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
Anyhow, its not panic time. Our team made the Canes look like world beaters. Its not like there was a lack of effort or passion, just a huge display of carelessness, indecision and poor decisions all around.
People have bad games. It happens.
BTW, I feel that I should point out the few bright spots in the play of Dupuis, Kunitz, Jeffrey and Cooke. These guys played above average to good for the most part.
For me, the tone was set in the first few minutes. A weak Letang penalty; a terrible Crosby cross-ice pass picked off just past the blue-line; the Niskanen across the slot picked off.

Either their heads were not in the right space, the Letang penalty got into their heads, the game plan was purely wrong, or all of the above.

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03-01-2013, 01:35 PM
  #449
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Too often it almost feels like this team wants to show boat out there too, and not do the simple things that win hockey games. Almost like they are buying into their own hype too much.

Another thing only a coach can fix.

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03-01-2013, 01:43 PM
  #450
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Too often it almost feels like this team wants to show boat out there too, and not do the simple things that win hockey games. Almost like they are buying into their own hype too much.

Another thing only a coach can fix.
The Canes were doing this novel little thing where they passed to the point and, if the point man had a lane to shoot, he shot the puck at the net. No double clutching, no pass to the perimeter for the sake of passing, they just......shot it. With some practice and dedication maybe we can find room in our flawless game plan for this odd but effective notion.

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