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The Everybody Panic thread.

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Old
03-01-2013, 08:38 AM
  #51
mpp9
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
This

Seems like a lot of "fire Bylsma" because, well, not firing him isn't working right now, so firing him is the alternative.

If Eaton dresses for Letang Saturday night, the same people who want him fired because he's not holding players (Letang) accountable for crappy play will howl he should be fired because he's depending on too many grinders, and not utilizing the talent available.
If DB wants to keep his job, he has to start holding players accountable for what they do on the ice. Bennett should be getting shifts over Neal. At least he's winning board battles and playing solid hockey for us. Despres should be in the lineup next game over anyone DB chooses. Letang should not see another shift on the 1st unit PP for the rest of his Penguin career.

Next dumb penalty taken, that players sits on the bench his next shift. It's not hard to do. I'd be fine giving Jeffrey, Sutter and Vitale more minutes.

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Old
03-01-2013, 08:38 AM
  #52
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Eaton should dress BUT so should Despres.
I'd put Letang or Niskanen in the press box.

I guess if Martin doesn't play Despres will take his spot and Eaton can take Bortuzzo's.

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Old
03-01-2013, 08:40 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I wish you would at least give credit to Bylsma that he IS preaching the right things yet the players are not listening. It's the players actions that are making Bylsma's job on the hot seat.
That is just so simplistic Cole!
You are going to give Bylsma credit for saying the right things, because he can state that "we cannot take stupid penalties"?
Just the fact that the word stupid is in that sentence means that it is something every person alive can agree to as something obvious. Doing something stupid is stupid. The majority of the time what we hear from Dan isn't even intelligible.... its all about getting to our game. Who the hell even knows what it is now a days, because we have hardly seen the original blue print in action for consecutive games for a couple of years!

Either way, HE is the coach, and if HE never reacts to those players making taking stupid penalties or making terrible mistakes, thus standing him up and putting him in the hot seat, by demanding accountability through his actions, then HE is responsible for the fact that the 'culture of accountability' isn't there!
Indeed, when he (for instance) scratches rookies playing well instead of vets who don't - with regularity - then he does exactly the opposite. He is telling vets and rookies alike that accountability is not an issue.

And as for blaming the players making mistakes, which of course we must also do, then I just have to say that we have veered far away from the system he took over and the hockey that he was himself successful having this team play. It is also possible, is it not, that they are asked to execute a system or a style of play, that they simply cannot pull off?
Our breakouts are HIS. Our constantly flawed defensive pairings are HIS. HE is responsible for the frequently headscratch worthy ice time allocation. HE is responsible for our utterly simplistic and boring style of hockey these days. As the coach, HE is responsible for the room giving a damn and having a high compete level. I could go on and on.
No way we need to give credit to him for his brilliant analysis of what ails us, if his public description of those problems has the intellectual force of a 3 year old taking about coloring outside the lines: "Is bad, mama says no no." Especially since... as you correctly point out...... NOTHING SEEMINGLY CHANGES!

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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
And how anyone could say Shero needs canned is hilarious. There is no way in hell anyone could convince me of Shero needing to be fired. He puts amazing teams on the ice every year. That is just people being frustrated.
Clearly the amazing part is arguable. We don't play amazing hockey for one, and most the actually amazing parts of our roster were drafted by his predecessor. Lots of obvious flaws in our team haven't been dealt with for years, and I dare say that Shero has never had a successful Summer as a Penguins general manager. In the greater scheme of things, I still have faith in Shero and think him capable, but he certainly is no longer immune to criticism.


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Old
03-01-2013, 08:47 AM
  #54
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Jeffrey, Vitale and Bennett were our best players last night. Perfect opportunity to hold a vet accountable and not have it directly affect our ability to win games. But I'm sure nothing will change.

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03-01-2013, 09:12 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I wish you would at least give credit to Bylsma that he IS preaching the right things yet the players are not listening. It's the players actions that are making Bylsma's job on the hot seat.

And how anyone could say Shero needs canned is hilarious. There is no way in hell anyone could convince me of Shero needing to be fired. He puts amazing teams on the ice every year. That is just people being frustrated.
Perhaps. But by it's very definition, if it is actually the players not listening, then has the coach not lost the players which also is an issue with the coach? If some players are uncoachable whoever is the coach then with some notable exceptions should they not be replaced, and is that not the fault of the GM? The most obvious notable exception of course is Malkin. He will continue to make dumb drop passes to no one, continue to lose his temper and get baited, but except for trying to get through to him to temper that, you take the bad with the exceptional good.

But again, with a few notable exceptions, losing a team like you describe is on management and coaching as much if not more than it is on the players. If they can not change what the players are doing it is on them to recognize the issue and to fix or replace the problems. Especially when they go on for years, and despite change on the roster, the problems remain the same.

There is an old saying. If one person calls you an ass, do not worry about it. Two people? No worries. When the third person calls you an ass maybe you should begin wearing a saddle and giving people rides because you probably are one.

If these problems just popped up, no worries they can fix them. But they have been ongoing for years now and no fixes. At some point it is on management.

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Old
03-01-2013, 09:15 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Jeffrey, Vitale and Bennett were our best players last night. Perfect opportunity to hold a vet accountable and not have it directly affect our ability to win games. But I'm sure nothing will change.
i think we need a line of Bennett Jeffrey Dupuis, a line with motivated players lol
Dupuis always gives 110%

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03-01-2013, 09:26 AM
  #57
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Let me add one more example:

Paul Martin is playing the way he is because Shero and Paulie himself held #7 accountable. Shero asked him if he wanted a trade because he was so bad. Paul stood up and said he wanted to live up to expectations. The reason he's playing with passion is because he challenged himself. Something I think Bylsma could be doing a lot better. But when you make mental errors and keep doing it - why would you change?

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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
That is just so simplistic Cole!
You are going to give Bylsma credit for saying the right things, because he can state that "we cannot take stupid penalties"?
Just the fact that the word stupid is in that sentence means that it is something every person alive can agree to as something obvious. Doing something stupid is stupid. The majority of the time what we hear from Dan isn't even intelligible.... its all about getting to our game. Who the hell even knows what it is now a days, because we have hardly seen the original blue print in action for consecutive games for a couple of years!

Either way, HE is the coach, and if HE never reacts to those players making taking stupid penalties or making terrible mistakes, thus standing him up and putting him in the hot seat, by demanding accountability through his actions, then HE is responsible for the fact that the 'culture of accountability' isn't there!
Indeed, when he (for instance) scratches rookies playing well instead of vets who don't - with regularity - then he does exactly the opposite. He is telling vets and rookies alike that accountability is not an issue.

And as for blaming the players making mistakes, which of course we must also do, then I just have to say that we have veered far away from the system he took over and the hockey that he was himself successful having this team play. It is also possible, is it not, that they are asked to execute a system or a style of play, that they simply cannot pull off?
Our breakouts are HIS. Our constantly flawed defensive pairings are HIS. HE is responsible for the frequently headscratch worthy ice time allocation. HE is responsible for our utterly simplistic and boring style of hockey these days. As the coach, HE is responsible for the room giving a damn and having a high compete level. I could go on and on.
No way we need to give credit to him for his brilliant analysis of what ails us, if his public description of those problems has the intellectual force of a 3 year old taking about coloring outside the lines: "Is bad, mama says no no." Especially since... as you correctly point out...... NOTHING SEEMINGLY CHANGES!
TR, you know I 100% agree with you. I'm reaching out to other posters who are screaming "fire Bylsma" and don't have reasons behind it. Your take is much more passionate than mine right now because I'm simply so tired of calling him out. There is nothing you said that I don't agree with. I think you nailed just about everything and people simply cannot argue you.

At least we knew the players stopped responding to MT because they hated him. For a group that loves Dan Bylsma, I laugh at how little they show it on the ice. You would think they'd want to keep him around and they are doing a damn good job of making him pack his bags.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Jeffrey, Vitale and Bennett were our best players last night. Perfect opportunity to hold a vet accountable and not have it directly affect our ability to win games. But I'm sure nothing will change.
Agreed. But we do know nothing will change.

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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Perhaps. But by it's very definition, if it is actually the players not listening, then has the coach not lost the players which also is an issue with the coach? If some players are uncoachable whoever is the coach then with some notable exceptions should they not be replaced, and is that not the fault of the GM? The most obvious notable exception of course is Malkin. He will continue to make dumb drop passes to no one, continue to lose his temper and get baited, but except for trying to get through to him to temper that, you take the bad with the exceptional good.

But again, with a few notable exceptions, losing a team like you describe is on management and coaching as much if not more than it is on the players. If they can not change what the players are doing it is on them to recognize the issue and to fix or replace the problems. Especially when they go on for years, and despite change on the roster, the problems remain the same.

There is an old saying. If one person calls you an ass, do not worry about it. Two people? No worries. When the third person calls you an ass maybe you should begin wearing a saddle and giving people rides because you probably are one.

If these problems just popped up, no worries they can fix them. But they have been ongoing for years now and no fixes. At some point it is on management.
Once again.. I know the two people I agree with on this topic. TR and JF are spot on. That's when it gets hard for someone to actually defend our coach.

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Old
03-01-2013, 09:41 AM
  #58
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Why? So Shero can draft the top 7 PMD in the draft?
Not this year. This year he drafts 5 F and 2 G in round 1 (7F would be too obvious), giving us the deepest system in the recorded history of hockey. In 3-5 years, no one will be able to stop us. We'll make Edmonton look like a soup kitchen.

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Old
03-01-2013, 09:46 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I wish you would at least give credit to Bylsma that he IS preaching the right things yet the players are not listening. It's the players actions that are making Bylsma's job on the hot seat.

And how anyone could say Shero needs canned is hilarious. There is no way in hell anyone could convince me of Shero needing to be fired. He puts amazing teams on the ice every year. That is just people being frustrated.
This is funny. Byslma is preaching the right things but the players aren't listening? Sounds like either the players need to go or the coach.

Shero did amaze me this past offseason making this years team significantly worse on paper than the team that was embarrassed last season in the playoffs. Amazing. Go Shero? MORE defense

And now we might start Mark Eaton? I thought we had this amazing depth of the blue line? We have one injury and now Eaton might play? PATHETIC.

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03-01-2013, 09:53 AM
  #60
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There is far too much serious discussion going on in this thread.

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:49 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post

If Eaton dresses for Letang Saturday night, the same people who want him fired because he's not holding players (Letang) accountable for crappy play will howl he should be fired because he's depending on too many grinders, and not utilizing the talent available.
Letang still plays very well 5 on 5 and PK

he is just god awful on the PP.

Bylsma wont take him off the PP, he's an idiot

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03-01-2013, 10:51 AM
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^ meant Letang plays very well 5on5 and is okay on PK.

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:55 AM
  #63
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The only thing I'll panic over is we CONTINUE to see the same ****ing mistakes over and over again. I could understand if the team loses here and there. I get it. It happens. I could even take mental errors like turnovers as long as they do not repeat every single game.

But w/ the Penguins - the reason it's time to panic is we see the same garbage night in/night out. Their focus is just completely off. Mental mistakes, DUMB penalties, not picking up assignments in the d-zone, barely forechecking hard, relying on skill to win games instead of a team concept, poor breakouts, poor PP breakouts, over-passing.

I think people put too much on Bylsma without understanding why the pressure should be on him. It's the players fault they do these dumb things. It's 100% their lack of effort and lack of focus. But when an entire team is doing it, minus our God Joe Vitale, that is when the blame falls on DB. It's his job to make sure the message is being sent. Only sitting Joe Vitale and Despres isn't really sending the message.

Example: Pre-game he spoke about dumb penalties and was very blunt and said they simply could not happen. He addressed the team. He was spot on. Why is this message not getting across?

Example 2: The guys before a Pens/Flyers game will talk to reporters and say "We need to stay focused and not get caught up in their game." And when we go out there and make the same damn mistake!!! How is it that you know what to do and then completely go against what is being preached?
Cole, here's what I expect of Bylsma: I expect him, as a tactician, as a bench boss, as a motivator, and really in all of his roles to do everything in his power to put his players collectively (and Sid and Geno in particular) in the best possible position to make plays. From there, it's on the players. A good coach sets his players up to play to their strengths and disguises their weaknesses. If Bylsma did all that and if he adjusted preemptively and then during a game for different opponents and held players accountable, then I would be screaming at the top of my lungs about the players.

But, here's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the first half of the championship game from Waterboy, where you go to a clip of the other coach readind 'coaching for dummies' for insight on Bylsma. Hyperbole? Of course. But, the other team knows what the Pens are going to do . . . they're going to try to get to their game. As a player, when the other team's players know what you're going to do, it tends to make you look like you're failing to execute, at least until you lose your patience being stuck at a relative competitive disadvantage. Then, the real chaos ensues.

This is classic chicken and the egg. Whether Bylsma isn't getting it done and the lack of structure and discipline is a result or the players just aren't listening, the only question is whether the message or the messenger no longer works. Either way, it doesn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I agree with the poster above that DB is in new territory as a coach. The players have quit responding to him, it seems. And the sloppy play just leads to players becoming more frustrated and they are probably looking around for answers just as we are.

After sitting back though and looking at the roster and the style of play. Alot of this is on Shero as well.

The best we can hope for is this team shows it cares and they get some help in the top and bottom 6 and the back end holds up. Thats the best it's gonna get this year. If you do that and you still lose, it may be time to get some new systems and new philosophies in the mix.

Do i think this team is good enough to win a Cup? No
Do i think this team playing to it's potential can win a couple rounds? Yes.
And does anything in the last 30 months give you confidence that Bylsma is the coach to get them there?

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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
That is just so simplistic Cole!
You are going to give Bylsma credit for saying the right things, because he can state that "we cannot take stupid penalties"?
Just the fact that the word stupid is in that sentence means that it is something every person alive can agree to as something obvious. Doing something stupid is stupid. The majority of the time what we hear from Dan isn't even intelligible.... its all about getting to our game. Who the hell even knows what it is now a days, because we have hardly seen the original blue print in action for consecutive games for a couple of years!

Either way, HE is the coach, and if HE never reacts to those players making taking stupid penalties or making terrible mistakes, thus standing him up and putting him in the hot seat, by demanding accountability through his actions, then HE is responsible for the fact that the 'culture of accountability' isn't there!
Indeed, when he (for instance) scratches rookies playing well instead of vets who don't - with regularity - then he does exactly the opposite. He is telling vets and rookies alike that accountability is not an issue.

And as for blaming the players making mistakes, which of course we must also do, then I just have to say that we have veered far away from the system he took over and the hockey that he was himself successful having this team play. It is also possible, is it not, that they are asked to execute a system or a style of play, that they simply cannot pull off?
Our breakouts are HIS. Our constantly flawed defensive pairings are HIS. HE is responsible for the frequently headscratch worthy ice time allocation. HE is responsible for our utterly simplistic and boring style of hockey these days. As the coach, HE is responsible for the room giving a damn and having a high compete level. I could go on and on.
No way we need to give credit to him for his brilliant analysis of what ails us, if his public description of those problems has the intellectual force of a 3 year old taking about coloring outside the lines: "Is bad, mama says no no." Especially since... as you correctly point out...... NOTHING SEEMINGLY CHANGES!



Clearly the amazing part is arguable. We don't play amazing hockey for one, and most the actually amazing parts of our roster were drafted by his predecessor. Lots of obvious flaws in our team haven't been dealt with for years, and I dare say that Shero has never had a successful Summer as a Penguins general manager. In the greater scheme of things, I still have faith in Shero and think him capable, but he certainly is no longer immune to criticism.
#1 Fan Here

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:00 AM
  #64
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4 1st round draft picks seems reasonable.

Nichushkin-Malkin-Neal
Bennett-MacKinnon-Drouin

Jones-Letang
Morrow-Harrington
As far as I know Nichushkin is not yet drafted by Pens

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:09 AM
  #65
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As far as I know Nichushkin is not yet drafted by Pens
stunning insight. relax it was a joke. why no mention of Jones, MacKinnon and Drouin?

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03-01-2013, 11:12 AM
  #66
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stunning insight. relax it was a joke. why no mention of Jones, MacKinnon and Drouin?
And no more real than the UFA winger we're going to get for Sid each summer . . .

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03-01-2013, 11:19 AM
  #67
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stunning insight. relax it was a joke. why no mention of Jones, MacKinnon and Drouin?
Have you seen recent Nichushkin's goal in KHL PO?
Reminded me last season Malkin's goal against Tampa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=MIufJGCCPjQ
The kid is 17 years old. Imagine him when he will grow up


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Old
03-01-2013, 11:22 AM
  #68
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Have you seen recent Nichushkin's goal in KHL PO?
Reminded me last season Malkin's goal against Tampa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=MIufJGCCPjQ
Sweet goal, but I think he's too European to fit the Pens system.

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03-01-2013, 11:23 AM
  #69
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Sweet goal, but I think he's too European to fit the Pens system.
Just like Malkin

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:24 AM
  #70
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Have you seen recent Nichushkin's goal in KHL PO?
Reminded me last season Malkin's goal against Tampa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=MIufJGCCPjQ
great move. if GMs are dumb enough to let him fall, i really hope Shero can move up in the first round and grab him. then again that assumes three things:

1. he falls
2. we still have a first round pick
3. Shero is willing to move up (on one hand we have the Tarasenko rumors, on the other hand Shero's been more conservative than Clarence Thomas)

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03-01-2013, 11:27 AM
  #71
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3. Shero is willing to move up (on one hand we have the Tarasenko rumors, on the other hand Shero's been more conservative than Clarence Thomas)
Sorry, what rumors?

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03-01-2013, 11:30 AM
  #72
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Sorry, what rumors?
it's been rumored for a while that Shero wanted to trade up for Tarasenko but couldn't beat the offer of Rundblad.

Quote:
In the 2010 draft, the Penguins had their eyes on Vladimir Tarasenko, the Russian star ranked as a top 5 talent but fell in the draft due to KHL concerns but none of the teams below the Penguins would let them trade up to select him.
Shero then tried to trade back in the first round to select Bennett but none of the teams wanted the Penguins to gain any additional picks.

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03-01-2013, 11:34 AM
  #73
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it's been rumored for a while that Shero wanted to trade up for Tarasenko but coudln't beat the offer of Rundblad.
I think it's impossible that Blues will trade him. If that will happen, Blues fans will bury their GM. But that would be cool. He is a finisher. Malkin has Neal, so Kunitz- Crosby-Tarasenko.
Or:
Malkin-Tarasenko
Crosby-Neal.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:49 AM
  #74
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What are the odds we can work Crosby into a 4 way trade for 7 1st round draft picks this year?
Ah, the Herschel Walker trad re-dux

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:21 PM
  #75
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This week's play reminded me a lot of the last week of MT's tenure with the Pens.
I'm not say anything, but I think Bylsma is no longer the receipe of success for the Pens.
We also need some vet presence. It doesn't have to be a star like Iginla, but someone that can come in a knock some sense in players-only meetings, a la Gary Roberts

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