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Old
03-01-2013, 04:03 PM
  #76
Turbofan
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In a fantasy keeper league I was in, we changed it so the 9th-place manager (finished just out of playoffs) got first pick for the next year. 10th place got 2nd, 11th place got 3rd, 12th place got 4th. Then the 8th place finisher got 5th pick. League winner of course, gets last pick.

Basically it encouraged everyone in the league to play all the way through and fight for playoff spots instead of failing for the first pick. Of course something like this is simple to do, easy to have everyone agree to, in a little fantasy league. In actual pro sports, not so much...

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03-01-2013, 04:13 PM
  #77
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Look at Ottawa last year. Made playoffs and got Ceci 15th. I'd much rather make the playoffs and get a Ceci, as opposed to missing and getting a Pouliout or Koekkoek

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03-01-2013, 05:03 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Look at Ottawa last year. Made playoffs and got Ceci 15th. I'd much rather make the playoffs and get a Ceci, as opposed to missing and getting a Pouliout or Koekkoek
I agree, Flying High.

If you are close to making the playoffs, might as well make it and grab the playoff revenue, I say.

As you mentioned, you're likely going to get as good, or better, a prospect anyway selecting 15th -17th, as you would selecting 13th. There's always a 'slider' that you might be able to get in that range, where GMs can say, "we were shocked he was still there".

This year, that could be one of a number of pre-draft 'highly ranked' prospects.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:34 PM
  #79
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Playoffs!

While a top pick would be nice it is never a gaurentee that they will pan out no matter how good their junior careers are or were. Pat Falloon, Daniel Tkaczuk, Pavel Brendl, Stefan....just a few that I remember off the top my head having excellent junior careers but not even close to decent nhl careers.

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03-01-2013, 07:10 PM
  #80
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Going against the grain and going to get totally roasted here but I'd take a top five pick over the playoffs for just this year.

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03-01-2013, 07:15 PM
  #81
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Going against the grain and going to get totally roasted here but I'd take a top five pick over the playoffs for just this year.
Slippery slope

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03-01-2013, 07:19 PM
  #82
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Jets 1.0 = White Out

Jets 2.0 = Blizzard of Death

headlines would be funny.. Jets beat (insert team here) in the Blizzard of Death at the MTS Centre.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:16 PM
  #83
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Not really a fair question. "Top 10" is not specific enough.

Would I rather make the playoffs or get a pick in the 5 - 10 range? Playoffs.

Would I rather make the playoffs or draft a generational talent like Crosby or Stamkos? I'd be a fool to say playoffs. That would be extremely short-sighted.

Obviously there's a lot of gray area in between those extremes.

I always want what's best for this franchise, which can be complicated because it means trying to balance short term and long term objectives. I want the team to make the playoffs first and foremost. I cheer for the team to win EVERY game regardless of the standings. I expect the players and coaches to always give 100%.

BUT, if they aren't going to make the playoffs, I'd rather draft high and I would always want my GM to get as much value out of expiring contracts (for players who won't be re-signed) as possible.

That doesn't make me stupid or any less of a fan as some seem to be implying.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:27 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
Not really a fair question. "Top 10" is not specific enough.

Would I rather make the playoffs or get a pick in the 5 - 10 range? Playoffs.

Would I rather make the playoffs or draft a generational talent like Crosby or Stamkos? I'd be a fool to say playoffs. That would be extremely short-sighted.

Obviously there's a lot of gray area in between those extremes.

I always want what's best for this franchise, which can be complicated because it means trying to balance short term and long term objectives. I want the team to make the playoffs first and foremost. I cheer for the team to win EVERY game regardless of the standings. I expect the players and coaches to always give 100%.

BUT, if they aren't going to make the playoffs, I'd rather draft high and I would always want my GM to get as much value out of expiring contracts (for players who won't be re-signed) as possible.

That doesn't make me stupid or any less of a fan as some seem to be implying.
There is a big difference between a top 10 pick which we have had 5 of in the last 5 years and a generational talent. If the OP said would you choose a playoff spot or an eighteen year old Crosby/Lemieux/Gretzky/Stamkos or some other real generational talent the responses may be very different. But a top 10 pick is a dime a dozen, in fact there are 10 a year and most don't make that much of an impact.

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03-01-2013, 11:33 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
There is a big difference between a top 10 pick which we have had 5 of in the last 5 years and a generational talent. If the OP said would you choose a playoff spot or an eighteen year old Crosby/Lemieux/Gretzky/Stamkos or some other real generational talent the responses may be very different. But a top 10 pick is a dime a dozen, in fact there are 10 a year and most don't make that much of an impact.
How about the gray area? Would you rather get Jones or make the playoffs as the 8th seed?

History shows that the top 3-5 picks are far more of a sure thing than picks 6-10, yet the OP lumps them all together as top 10. That's my point. Or are you interpreting top 10 to mean the 10th pick?

Or maybe to bring this closer to home, would you rather add another Kane or Bogo to this team or make the playoffs this year? Those are actually players this franchise drafted and make up the core of this team.

My point was supposed to be that it's complicated.


Last edited by Stej: 03-01-2013 at 11:40 PM.
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03-01-2013, 11:44 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
How about the gray area? Would you rather get Jones or make the playoffs as the 8th seed?

History shows that the top 3-5 picks are far more of a sure thing than picks 6-10, yet the OP lumps them all together as top 10. That's my point. Or are you interpreting top 10 to mean the 10th pick?

My point was supposed to be that it's complicated.
I agree, probably a better question to really draw out where people stand would be to ask "would you rather make the playoffs as the 8th seed or have the 1st overall pick"? How many people would change their answer?

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:57 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
Not really a fair question. "Top 10" is not specific enough.

Would I rather make the playoffs or get a pick in the 5 - 10 range? Playoffs.

Would I rather make the playoffs or draft a generational talent like Crosby or Stamkos? I'd be a fool to say playoffs. That would be extremely short-sighted.

Obviously there's a lot of gray area in between those extremes.

I always want what's best for this franchise, which can be complicated because it means trying to balance short term and long term objectives. I want the team to make the playoffs first and foremost. I cheer for the team to win EVERY game regardless of the standings. I expect the players and coaches to always give 100%.

BUT, if they aren't going to make the playoffs, I'd rather draft high and I would always want my GM to get as much value out of expiring contracts (for players who won't be re-signed) as possible.

That doesn't make me stupid or any less of a fan as some seem to be implying.
Good post Stej and it adds context and wiggle room into this rather one sided affair.

don't get me wrong I want us to compete for and win every game......it's just how I am hard wired.

This season if we are in the hunt I definatley don't want us unloading Hainsey at the deadline .....I just don't think the return is worth the message we send to our team. I know it sounds like I am throwing asset value maximization under the bus but we have to look like we plan on winning sometime soon to send the right message to Wheeler, Bogosian, Burmi, and Little and we also might want to attract some talent knowing teams might need to make deals to get cap compliant. last year I agreed with moving Johnny O because we were long shots to make it. at this point getting in the playoffs even for a round would be away > than the difference in upgrade levels between picks in the 1st round IMHO.

Wheeler, Little, Kane, Burmi, Toby, Bogo, and Pavs all need to get the taste of playoffs in their mouth.....it's that time now and how it could impact their development might be immeasurable.

I am with you though Stej if we hit a serious dry spell in the next 4 weeks and we are out of the playoff hunt come early april then I say we fire sale guys we can't get extended and hopefully that is the last time this group is a seller at the trade deadline for a long time.

As to the OP though....making the playoffs for our group at this point in time > than even a top 5 pick IMHO

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Old
03-02-2013, 12:32 AM
  #88
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Playoffs. Each and every time playoffs.

Edmonton
Carolina
Los Angeles

2 of these teams won a cup and the other came one game away from winning one.

All three didn't exactly dominate for years, pick high for years (I guess LA did a bit) and they all weren't even locks to make the playoffs the year they won. They played well, got hot, got some pieces at the deadline and off they went.

Then you have other teams that continually draft high and never get close.

Finally, you have teams like Ottawa, NJ and the Red Wings who seem to always to well without the lottery.

You play to the best of your ability each and every game. This team isn't bad enough for a top 10 pick.

We won't even go into the whole 'loser' mentality and culture as it's always been raised here.

I feel like trying to be bad to get a high pick as a method of team building is horribly flawed and just doesn't work often enough to justify the pain.

Just win.

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:26 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Good post Stej and it adds context and wiggle room into this rather one sided affair.

don't get me wrong I want us to compete for and win every game......it's just how I am hard wired.

This season if we are in the hunt I definatley don't want us unloading Hainsey at the deadline .....I just don't think the return is worth the message we send to our team. I know it sounds like I am throwing asset value maximization under the bus but we have to look like we plan on winning sometime soon to send the right message to Wheeler, Bogosian, Burmi, and Little and we also might want to attract some talent knowing teams might need to make deals to get cap compliant. last year I agreed with moving Johnny O because we were long shots to make it. at this point getting in the playoffs even for a round would be away > than the difference in upgrade levels between picks in the 1st round IMHO.

Wheeler, Little, Kane, Burmi, Toby, Bogo, and Pavs all need to get the taste of playoffs in their mouth.....it's that time now and how it could impact their development might be immeasurable.

I am with you though Stej if we hit a serious dry spell in the next 4 weeks and we are out of the playoff hunt come early april then I say we fire sale guys we can't get extended and hopefully that is the last time this group is a seller at the trade deadline for a long time.

As to the OP though....making the playoffs for our group at this point in time > than even a top 5 pick IMHO

I don't see how making the playoffs would be better than a top 5 pick but it would be nice to make the playoffs. After reading the comments this core could really use playoff experince to get better but to say making the playoffs is better than a top 5 pick is questionable.

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:41 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
I feel like trying to be bad to get a high pick as a method of team building is horribly flawed and just doesn't work often enough to justify the pain.

Just win.
Sorry Brogosian, I hate to single you out but the last part of your post is a sentiment that drives me a little batty.

Who exactly is talking about trying to be bad to get a high pick? We're fans on a message board who have zero impact on the outcome of games or effort level of the players. Being okay with a high draft pick is not the same as wanting the players, coaches or management to stop trying. VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION THERE.

If the team takes a downturn and is out of the picture in a month, Chevy trading players on expiring contracts for picks is not him "trying to be bad". It's actually the opposite, he's trying to make the team better. He's just operating on a timeline that considers more than just the next month.

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03-02-2013, 09:45 AM
  #91
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To add to my last post, I would really be upset if our team was run like the Flames. Sell the farm every year to try to squeak into the playoffs only to ruin the cap structure of the team and decimate the prospect pool. Dare I say, the exact opposite strategy of draft and develop. I thank my lucky stars that our management do not operate that way.

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03-02-2013, 09:51 AM
  #92
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If this was the NBA, then I say top 10 pick. However, this is the NHL, where the 8th seed upsetting the #1 seed isn't a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence. If the Jets can get into the post-season and Pavelec gets hot, who knows how far this team can get.

Also, seeing city-wide whiteouts on game day would be awesome!

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03-02-2013, 09:52 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
I don't see how making the playoffs would be better than a top 5 pick but it would be nice to make the playoffs. After reading the comments this core could really use playoff experince to get better but to say making the playoffs is better than a top 5 pick is questionable.
It is worthy of debate

My logic is we would have to crash a bit hard to get bottom 5 and I am not sure how that would negatively impact our culture.

On the other hand I believe making the playoffs and perhaps evening getting some traction would give our young core a taste and that would impact them and help improve all of them. The net growth on the many by winning trumps the lift in the difference between a top 5 draft pick and another 16th to 20th type 1st round pick IMHO.

this team has been wallowing in a culture of being a perennial non playoff team for far too long. Winnipeg has owned it for a cup of coffee but I think it's time to get that turned around and the sooner the better.

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03-02-2013, 10:49 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
It is worthy of debate

My logic is we would have to crash a bit hard to get bottom 5 and I am not sure how that would negatively impact our culture.

On the other hand I believe making the playoffs and perhaps evening getting some traction would give our young core a taste and that would impact them and help improve all of them. The net growth on the many by winning trumps the lift in the difference between a top 5 draft pick and another 16th to 20th type 1st round pick IMHO.

this team has been wallowing in a culture of being a perennial non playoff team for far too long. Winnipeg has owned it for a cup of coffee but I think it's time to get that turned around and the sooner the better.


Totally agree with you.

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03-02-2013, 10:51 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Stej View Post
To add to my last post, I would really be upset if our team was run like the Flames. Sell the farm every year to try to squeak into the playoffs only to ruin the cap structure of the team and decimate the prospect pool. Dare I say, the exact opposite strategy of draft and develop. I thank my lucky stars that our management do not operate that way.


The Flames are a mess and that has turned away a lot of fans.

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03-02-2013, 12:15 PM
  #96
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That Is correct but imagine, if we got Mackinnon, Seth Jones, Drouin or Barkov(one of them), then we be really winning.


Honestly though, this draft has dozens of great options. The first round is littered with talent.

I think the playoffs will help build on what we already have more so than a high pick. Plus I think we're still too good for a bottom 5 pick anyways. If we fail we'll be right on the cusp, which is often one of the worst places to be.

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03-02-2013, 12:39 PM
  #97
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03-02-2013, 01:21 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
Sorry Brogosian, I hate to single you out but the last part of your post is a sentiment that drives me a little batty.

Who exactly is talking about trying to be bad to get a high pick? We're fans on a message board who have zero impact on the outcome of games or effort level of the players. Being okay with a high draft pick is not the same as wanting the players, coaches or management to stop trying. VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION THERE.

If the team takes a downturn and is out of the picture in a month, Chevy trading players on expiring contracts for picks is not him "trying to be bad". It's actually the opposite, he's trying to make the team better. He's just operating on a timeline that considers more than just the next month.
Fair enough, but then you would be suggesting that this team is bad enough for a top 10 pick. I do not think that is the case, which means this whole debate is mute.

Furthermore, I don't understand why anyone would WANT the team to be bad enough to get a top 10 pick that MAY develop enough to maybe get us into the playoffs. The whole thing to me is kind of baffling.

This team, as it is now, is damned close to being a playoff team. IF we'd had league average goaltending from day one, then our PK would be better and we'd be in a comfortable position right now.

IF we had a functioning powerplay, I believe that would have got us at least a couple more wins and again, we'd be in a better place.

So I guess that means the OP is asking us if we want to be a worse team in order to pick higher and get back to where we are now. It's very confusing.

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03-02-2013, 02:00 PM
  #99
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I believe that when Noel and TNSE say that the goal is to make the playoffs, they are very serious about that. In the end its still about money and we need those extra games. Even last year when we could have "let up" at the end, they played to win and it cost a couple of spots in the draft. Turns out we got Trouba, who I actually prefer over Yakupov and Murray.

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03-02-2013, 02:02 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
Fair enough, but then you would be suggesting that this team is bad enough for a top 10 pick. I do not think that is the case, which means this whole debate is mute.

Furthermore, I don't understand why anyone would WANT the team to be bad enough to get a top 10 pick that MAY develop enough to maybe get us into the playoffs. The whole thing to me is kind of baffling.

This team, as it is now, is damned close to being a playoff team. IF we'd had league average goaltending from day one, then our PK would be better and we'd be in a comfortable position right now.

IF we had a functioning powerplay, I believe that would have got us at least a couple more wins and again, we'd be in a better place.

So I guess that means the OP is asking us if we want to be a worse team in order to pick higher and get back to where we are now. It's very confusing.
I definitely agree with all of the above. I guess my official stance is that I'm cheering like hell for the playoffs, but IF we fall off and it becomes likely that we will miss the playoffs, I want Chevy to switch into next year mode, stat. I'm not interested in wasting any assets on rentals just to maybe squeak in.

This team is close, but I'm not certain yet that this is the year. I just hope it is.

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