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Dead puck era - 95-04 - Who were considered the best. All positions.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:43 AM
  #1
Kresnik
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Dead puck era - 95-04 - Who were considered the best. All positions.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

I want to know the top 5 forward, defensman and goalie during this timespan but i don't want this to be just a list thread, i want to know how they were seen during that time, because often an opinion change and the nostalgica kicks in when a player has had his career behind him.

I'm sorry but the dead puck era has a special place in my heart even though i rarely watched hockey at the time. The players however are very familiar to me, because i was a kid in the 90s and hockeycards was the big thing back then.

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03-01-2013, 05:00 AM
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unknown33
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I will only list the one that are locks for Top 5 imo.

F
Lemieux
Jagr
Sakic
Forsberg

D
Lidstrom
Pronger/Stevens/Bourque/MacInnis/Chelios/Leetch all look good

G
Hasek
Brodeur
Roy

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03-01-2013, 07:18 AM
  #3
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That's a good list ^^^

Bure has to be on the list for forwards, IMO.

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03-01-2013, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
I will only list the one that are locks for Top 5 imo.

F
Lemieux
Jagr
Sakic
Forsberg

D
Lidstrom
Pronger/Stevens/Bourque/MacInnis/Chelios/Leetch all look good

G
Hasek
Brodeur
Roy
A great start! Would start by adding Lindros at forward and then close that group if only allowed 5 picks. Outside locking in at first thought would be Fedorov, Bure and for a short but fun time Kariya/Selänne. Later Iginla and for a short but fun time Bertuzzi/Näslund.

Defenceman is harder to narrow down. The most important ones are there, but I suspect Hatcher, Blake, Gonchar and maybe Zubov would get some spread votes. Maybe even Numminen, who is often overlooked.

Belfour probably is next of the goalies. Then? Joseph?

One of my favourite eras for sure. I seem to favour the first half of DPE, but that´s where I think the greatest players and battles of that era established them selfs.

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03-01-2013, 07:30 AM
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Goalies: Hasek, Roy - give or take Brodeur (this is IMO clear)
Defensmen: toughest call, Chelios, Bourque, Lidstrom, MacInnis, Pronger and later maybe Blake
Forwards: In fact, this has to be Jagr.
Lemieux, Forsberg or Bure are in the conversation when they were healthy, but Jagr is my symbol of DPE

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03-01-2013, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by feffan View Post
Defenceman is harder to narrow down. The most important ones are there, but I suspect Hatcher, Blake, Gonchar and maybe Zubov would get some spread votes. Maybe even Numminen, who is often overlooked.
Ozolinsh established himself as a counterpart of Lidstrom in Colorado. For a short, but bright while.

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03-01-2013, 07:36 AM
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The goaltenders the easiest, or at least the first four:

1. Hasek
2. Brodeur
3. Roy
4. Belfour
5. Joseph

I'll homer it up a bit and say Osgood would be 6th.

For defensemen, I'd go with:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom
2. Scott Stevens
3. Ray Bourque
4. Chris Chelios
5. Brian Leetch

In putting Stevens in 2nd I'm obviously putting a strong premium on playoff performances. Al MacInnis would be 6th for me, and Chris Pronger would be 7th.

Forwards:

1. Jaromir Jagr
2. Joe Sakic
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Peter Forsberg
5. Sergei Fedorov

Might be displaying a bit of Wings bias with Fedorov in 5th but he was dynamite in the playoffs during this time period. Selanne just misses the cut in 6th for me.

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03-01-2013, 07:51 AM
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Forwards
Jagr: 412G 990P 1.38PPG
Sakic: 327G 838P 1.21PPG
Forsberg: 216G 721P 1.28PPG
Lindros: 271G 645P 1.17PPG
Selanne: 351G 765P 1.03PPG

HM: Lemieux and Bure. Lemieux had a ridiculous pace (1.69PPG) but played only 290 games during this long stretch. Bure had a slightly better pace than Selanne (1.05PPG) but played much less games (744 to 478).

I'll take a stab at defense and goalies in a bit.

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03-01-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
The goaltenders the easiest, or at least the first four:

1. Hasek
2. Brodeur
3. Roy
4. Belfour
5. Joseph

I'll homer it up a bit and say Osgood would be 6th.

For defensemen, I'd go with:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom
2. Scott Stevens
3. Ray Bourque
4. Chris Chelios
5. Brian Leetch

In putting Stevens in 2nd I'm obviously putting a strong premium on playoff performances. Al MacInnis would be 6th for me, and Chris Pronger would be 7th.

Forwards:

1. Jaromir Jagr
2. Joe Sakic
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Peter Forsberg
5. Sergei Fedorov

Might be displaying a bit of Wings bias with Fedorov in 5th but he was dynamite in the playoffs during this time period. Selanne just misses the cut in 6th for me.
My list would be similar. Given your emphasis on playoffs, I can understand Fedorov in front of Selanne, though even with the worst stretch of his career coming in the sample, Selanne is third in regular season points (behind Jagr and Sakic).

Goalies: Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph
Honorable Mention: Osgood, Khabibulin

Defensemen: Lidstrom, Pronger, Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens
Honorable Mention: Blake, Bourque, Leetch, Niedermayer, Zubov, Foote, Hatcher

Forwards: Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Sakic, Selanne
Honorable Mention: Fedorov, Lindros, Kariya, Modano, LeClair, Bure


Is it just me, or is it a little thin after the first five goaltenders? In the other positions, I couldn't NOT name eleven guys - and I think I'm still missing some names...

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03-01-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Ozolinsh established himself as a counterpart of Lidstrom in Colorado. For a short, but bright while.
Agreed. He would probably get som votes, especially if you divide it up season by season.

Giving defencemen a little more thougt my five would be:
Lidström
Stevens
MacInnis
Pronger
Bourque

But it´s hard, the only things I´m sure of is that Lidström/Stevens is 1-2 for me and my opionon on wich other three should be included could change rather quick if someone has some good arguments. Leetch and Chelios sure is nocking on the door...

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03-01-2013, 08:42 AM
  #11
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Forwards
Mario Lemieux
Joe Sakic
Jaromir Jagr
Sergei Fedorov
Peter Forsberg
Steve Yzerman
Paul Kariya
Teemu Selanne
Pavel Bure
Eric Lindros

HM: Ziggy Palffy, Wayne Gretzky, John Leclair, Mike Modano, Ron Francis, John Leclair, Mats Sundin, Jarome Iginla, Markus Naslund

Defensemen
Nicklas Lidstrom
Chris Pronger
Raymond Bourque
Al MacInnis
Chris Chelios
Brian Leetch
Scott Stevens
Sergei Zubov
Vladimir Konstantinov
Scott Niedermayer

HM: Eric Desjardins, Rob Blake, Sergei Gonchar, Sandis Ozolinsh, Wade Redden

Goaltenders
Dominik Hasek
Patrick Roy
Martin Brodeur
Ed Belfour
Chris Osgood
Roberto Luongo
JS Giguere
Curtis Joseph
Jose Theodore
Olaf Kolzig

HM: Marty Turco, Evgeni Nabokov, Roman Cechmanek, John Vanbiesbrouck

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03-01-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
My list would be similar. Given your emphasis on playoffs, I can understand Fedorov in front of Selanne, though even with the worst stretch of his career coming in the sample, Selanne is third in regular season points (behind Jagr and Sakic).

Goalies: Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph
Honorable Mention: Osgood, Khabibulin

Defensemen: Lidstrom, Pronger, Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens
Honorable Mention: Blake, Bourque, Leetch, Niedermayer, Zubov, Foote, Hatcher

Forwards: Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Sakic, Selanne
Honorable Mention: Fedorov, Lindros, Kariya, Modano, LeClair, Bure


Is it just me, or is it a little thin after the first five goaltenders? In the other positions, I couldn't NOT name eleven guys - and I think I'm still missing some names...
Foote is someone I also forgot! Can´t see LeLclair being in this group. He in my mind belongs with the next big tier of Sundin, Palffy, Alfredsson, Elias and so on.

Didn´t associate any other great goalies with the DPE right of either. For me it pretty much is the great three + Belfour. Beezer, Richter, Carey, Kölzig, Irbe, Cechmanek and so on in my opinion all don´t belong in that tier for that period. Either for a too short hurrah (Cechmanek, Carey) or for maybe having their peak earlier (Beezer, Richter), or just being in the next tier (Irbe and Kölzig). Probably Richter and Beezer has the best arguments? Especially if you include Richters 96 World Cup. Beezer had the Florida run and some good years... I forgot Osgood, Khabibulin and Vernon! But don´t think I would replace Joseph with either of them.

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03-01-2013, 08:52 AM
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But it´s hard, the only things I´m sure of is that Lidström/Stevens is 1-2 for me and my opionon on wich other three should be included could change rather quick if someone has some good arguments. Leetch and Chelios sure is nocking on the door...
Pronger was Stevens' equal physically and defensively. As we're limiting it to 94-95 through 03-04, Pronger was a better skater and far more effective offensively.

During this period I consider it strange to think of anyone but Pronger as the #2 defenseman, simply because the other candidates people suggest either were similar-type defensemen who were Pronger's equal in some areas and well behind in others (Blake, Stevens, Chelios at that time of his career), were not even the best defenseman on their team for most of the period (Niedermayer), and/or were outplayed by Pronger as teammates (MacInnis).

Two defensemen who don't fall into any of those categories are Ray Bourque and Brian Leetch. Leetch had a significant dropoff in his career and was no longer challenging for the Norris halfway through this period. Bourque retired in 2001, but is a reasonable alternative #2 choice despite not winning a Norris during this time.

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03-01-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Pronger was Stevens' equal physically and defensively. As we're limiting it to 94-95 through 03-04, Pronger was a better skater and far more effective offensively.

During this period I consider it strange to think of anyone but Pronger as the #2 defenseman, simply because the other candidates people suggest either were similar-type defensemen who were Pronger's equal in some areas and well behind in others (Blake, Stevens, Chelios at that time of his career), were not even the best defenseman on their team for most of the period (Niedermayer), and/or were outplayed by Pronger as teammates (MacInnis).

Two defensemen who don't fall into any of those categories are Ray Bourque and Brian Leetch. Leetch had a significant dropoff in his career and was no longer challenging for the Norris halfway through this period. Bourque retired in 2001, but is a reasonable alternative #2 choice despite not winning a Norris during this time.
The big issue with Pronger for me during this time period is he was a disaster in the playoffs.

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03-01-2013, 09:27 AM
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The big issue with Pronger for me during this time period is he was a disaster in the playoffs.
Ok, well in that case we should start looking at naming guys like Slava Kozlov, Chris Drury, and Joe Nieuwendyk to the list at forward.

If we do a 2006 list, we can include Fernando Pisani!

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03-01-2013, 09:56 AM
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PlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS (1994-95/2003-04)
Jagr JaromirRW2831.00
Hasek DominikG2203.50
Lidstrom NicklasD1915.80
Sakic JoeC1843.00
Brodeur MartinG1512.50
Forsberg PeterC1426.00
Lemieux MarioC1269.00
Kariya PaulLW1249.00
Selanne TeemuRW1188.50
Naslund MarkusLW1102.00


PlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS (1994-95/2003-04)
Kariya PaulLW1249.00
Naslund MarkusLW1102.00
Leclair JohnLW906.50
Shanahan BrendanLW837.50
Tkachuk KeithLW804.00
Elias PatrikLW600.50
Robitaille LucLW516.00
Kozlov VyacheslavLW476.50
Kovalchuk IlyaLW415.00
Friesen JeffLW365.50


PlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS (1994-95/2003-04)
Sakic JoeC1843.00
Forsberg PeterC1426.00
Lemieux MarioC1269.00
Yzerman SteveC1041.00
Lindros EricC1007.00
Francis RonC940.50
Sundin MatsC871.00
Fedorov SergeiC771.00
Modano MikeC700.00
Messier MarkC664.00


PlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS (1994-95/2003-04)
Jagr JaromirRW2831.00
Selanne TeemuRW1188.50
Iginla JaromeRW1074.00
Bure PavelRW860.50
Hull BrettRW706.45
Bondra PeterRW686.50
Mogilny AlexanderRW655.00
St. Louis MartinRW636.50
Hejduk MilanRW558.00
Guerin BillRW557.50


PlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS (1994-95/2003-04)
Lidstrom NicklasD1915.80
Chelios ChrisD1047.75
Bourque RayD867.85
Pronger ChrisD811.30
Stevens ScottD804.35
Blake RobD752.70
Niedermayer ScottD746.00
Macinnis AlD713.35
Leetch BrianD591.45
Hatcher DerianD476.00

PlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS (1994-95/2003-04)
Hasek DominikG2203.50
Brodeur MartinG1512.50
Roy PatrickG900.50
Belfour EdG689.50
Osgood ChrisG544.00
Joseph CurtisG472.50
Theodore JoseG466.00
Kolzig OlafG457.50
Vernon MikeG386.00
Carey JimG309.00

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03-02-2013, 01:55 PM
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F: Jagr,Selanne,Sakic
D: Lidstrom,Pronger
G: Hasek, Brodeur

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03-02-2013, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
I will only list the one that are locks for Top 5 imo.

F
Lemieux
Jagr
Sakic
Forsberg

D
Lidstrom
Pronger/Stevens/Bourque/MacInnis/Chelios/Leetch all look good

G
Hasek
Brodeur
Roy
You nailed the forwards and goalies.

I wouldn't include Bourque, Chelios, or Leetch in the D - Leetch's career took a nose dive after 1997. Bourque didn't decline as far, but after 1996, he definitely declined quite a bit, with the exception of the bounceback 2000-01. Likewise Chelios - he had a great bounceback in 2001-02, but otherwise wasn't really the same after 1996 or 1997.

So for D, I would say Lidstrom first, followed by some combo of Stevens/Pronger/MacInnis/Blake.

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03-02-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
The goaltenders the easiest, or at least the first four:

1. Hasek
2. Brodeur
3. Roy
4. Belfour
5. Joseph

I'll homer it up a bit and say Osgood would be 6th.

For defensemen, I'd go with:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom
2. Scott Stevens
3. Ray Bourque
4. Chris Chelios
5. Brian Leetch

In putting Stevens in 2nd I'm obviously putting a strong premium on playoff performances. Al MacInnis would be 6th for me, and Chris Pronger would be 7th.

Forwards:

1. Jaromir Jagr
2. Joe Sakic
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Peter Forsberg
5. Sergei Fedorov

Might be displaying a bit of Wings bias with Fedorov in 5th but he was dynamite in the playoffs during this time period. Selanne just misses the cut in 6th for me.
Pretty good list but Bourque only played til 01 (466 games) and it was the downward side of his career, I would put all of the other 7 Dmen ahead of him and a couple of others as well, like Nieds, Zubov and Blake for starters.

Sundin would bump Mario for the same reasons.

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03-02-2013, 02:15 PM
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You nailed the forwards and goalies.

I wouldn't include Bourque, Chelios, or Leetch in the D - Leetch's career took a nose dive after 1997. Bourque didn't decline as far, but after 1996, he definitely declined quite a bit, with the exception of the bounceback 2000-01. Likewise Chelios - he had a great bounceback in 2001-02, but otherwise wasn't really the same after 1996 or 1997.

So for D, I would say Lidstrom first, followed by some combo of Stevens/Pronger/MacInnis/Blake.
Chelios bounced back in 1999-2000, and it's certainly reflected by the statistical record, as his line was on the ice for 102 GF (highest on the team) but only 54 GA (lowest of the four full-time defensemen). He was a +48; the next highest defenseman on the team was +19. And he wasn't getting protected either. Not saying he was the best in the league or even the second-best, but his decline didn't last that long, in my opinion.

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03-02-2013, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Pronger was Stevens' equal physically and defensively. As we're limiting it to 94-95 through 03-04, Pronger was a better skater and far more effective offensively.

During this period I consider it strange to think of anyone but Pronger as the #2 defenseman, simply because the other candidates people suggest either were similar-type defensemen who were Pronger's equal in some areas and well behind in others (Blake, Stevens, Chelios at that time of his career), were not even the best defenseman on their team for most of the period (Niedermayer), and/or were outplayed by Pronger as teammates (MacInnis).

Two defensemen who don't fall into any of those categories are Ray Bourque and Brian Leetch. Leetch had a significant dropoff in his career and was no longer challenging for the Norris halfway through this period. Bourque retired in 2001, but is a reasonable alternative #2 choice despite not winning a Norris during this time.
The stats linked showed from 95-96 till the 04 season which would change some things.

Using 96-04 Bourque doesn't even make my top 10 due to the downside of his career, Avs resurgence aside, and the lack of GP compared to many other legit guys.

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03-02-2013, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Chelios bounced back in 1999-2000, and it's certainly reflected by the statistical record, as his line was on the ice for 102 GF (highest on the team) but only 54 GA (lowest of the four full-time defensemen). He was a +48; the next highest defenseman on the team was +19. And he wasn't getting protected either. Not saying he was the best in the league or even the second-best, but his decline didn't last that long, in my opinion.
Chelios and his bounce back in 99-00 is very similar to Bourques with the Avs, largely driven by his supporting cast.

A very use full player to be sure but just like Bourque, put him on a less than average team and he wouldn't look top 10 in that year.

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03-02-2013, 03:29 PM
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If the 06 existed in the Dead Puck era, how sad would it be for the one team that didn't have one of Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour and Cujo? They'd probably cycle through a different starter every single year.

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03-02-2013, 03:56 PM
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If the 06 existed in the Dead Puck era, how sad would it be for the one team that didn't have one of Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour and Cujo? They'd probably cycle through a different starter every single year.
This quote makes me want to build a 6 team DPE league.

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03-02-2013, 08:21 PM
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If the 06 existed in the Dead Puck era, how sad would it be for the one team that didn't have one of Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour and Cujo? They'd probably cycle through a different starter every single year.
Unlikely. That's not what happened in the O6, and the only thing that would make it more likely to happen nowadays in a six-team league is the fact that teams don't own players forever.

For example, say you make a six-team league from the Northwest division plus Winnipeg, as they are right now, no prospects allowed. Vancouver has Luongo and Schneider. Calgary has an aging Kiprusoff and then Joey Macdonald. That's just ridiculous. In the O6, you'd see Schneider/Luongo bound to Vancouver forever (RFAs for life) while nowadays, they actually have the opportunity to turn UFA and leave without the team getting to dictate the terms. If the teams with the top five starters also have the better backups, that sixth team is basically screwed for goaltending, but they wouldn't be any more likely to change starters every year; they'd get the best guy they could and then try and improve the team in other ways.

A good example is a guy like Al Rollins. Despite being probably the worst starter in the league during his career, he managed to keep a job in the league for several years (and even somehow won a Hart with a 12-47-7 record).

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