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The Defenseman Acquisition Thread | Part I: Creating a Defense that is "no Soff"

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Old
03-01-2013, 03:55 PM
  #126
Jag68Sid87
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I think it's all about adjustments. Teams have adjusted to us. We have no clue how to make adjustments back.

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Old
03-01-2013, 03:58 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I think it's all about adjustments. Teams have adjusted to us. We have no clue how to make adjustments back.
Gain zone...stop....pass puck out to point....defender shoots hoping for a rebound. That is very hard for teams to stop and totally unpredictable.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:20 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Beau Bennett ($0.900m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($3.750m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Pascal Dupuis ($2.000m)
Joe Vitale ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kris Letang ($6.500m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.300m) / Brian Dumoulin ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $74,448,333; BONUSES: $85,000
CAP SPACE (18-man roster):- $10,063,333


It's not going to be easy. That's moving Martin, Geno getting underpaid and using two rookies in significant roles in the top 4. Doesn't look like we can sustain that IMO. Despres will get a hefty raise in due time. As will Bennett.
Your math is way off. Add up your numbers manually... I come to 59.835m. Which means there's ~4.5m of space (with a 64.3m cap). Not a lot, but you make some decisions on who to keep (you likely let Cooke walk), and you're fine. Tight, but fine. Also keep in mind that when Letang and Malkin's new deals kick in, the cap will have gone up from 64m. Even if revenue doesn't change too much (unlikely), the NHLPA still has their 5% esclator to artificially raise the cap. I would be surprised if the cap is lower than 68m by Sept 2014.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:24 PM
  #129
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Yeah, it's absolutely an issue of adjustments.

Here is my idea. Firing Bylsma isn't the answer, it's an option, but not the answer, we can have a coaching staff similar to the NFL.

Fire Granato and Reirden, have Bylsma be the Head Coach that calls the shots and brings a positive attitude. Hire an assistant that focuses only on offense and power play (the offensive coordinator) then hire the other assistant to put his own defensive system in place and focus only on D and penalty kill (the defensive coordinator)

We don't need to fire Bylsma, we can easily get him better assistant coaches though.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:26 PM
  #130
mpp9
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Your math is way off. Add up your numbers manually... I come to 59.835m. Which means there's ~4.5m of space (with a 64.3m cap). Not a lot, but you make some decisions on who to keep (you likely let Cooke walk), and you're fine. Tight, but fine. Also keep in mind that when Letang and Malkin's new deals kick in, the cap will have gone up from 64m. Even if revenue doesn't change too much (unlikely), the NHLPA still has their 5% esclator to artificially raise the cap. I would be surprised if the cap is lower than 68m by Sept 2014.
Capgeek wasn't my friend on that one. Oops.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:31 PM
  #131
Til the End of Time
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Yeah, it's absolutely an issue of adjustments.

Here is my idea. Firing Bylsma isn't the answer, it's an option, but not the answer, we can have a coaching staff similar to the NFL.

Fire Granato and Reirden, have Bylsma be the Head Coach that calls the shots and brings a positive attitude. Hire an assistant that focuses only on offense and power play (the offensive coordinator) then hire the other assistant to put his own defensive system in place and focus only on D and penalty kill (the defensive coordinator)

We don't need to fire Bylsma, we can easily get him better assistant coaches though.
what makes you think the assistants are the problem?

firing the assistants... keeping bylsma... seems like a rather unorthodox solution. seems like you just want to keep him around because he's a nice guy.

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03-01-2013, 04:34 PM
  #132
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what makes you think the assistants are the problem? is it because bylsma is just a nice guy?
I kinda like Granato. Reidien on the other hand? He could be replaced. IMO

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:35 PM
  #133
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What about trading Orpik + P. Sammuelson + 4th to Minn. for Seto + Clutterbuck

Then trade Kennedy + pick/Maata for a Stay at home D

Seto Sid Dupuis
Kunitz Malkin Neal
Bennett Sutter Clutterbuck
Cooke Vitale Adams
Glass

Tanger/Despres
Martin/ Stay at home Mystery Dman
Engo/Nisky
Bort

I think the bottom 6 looks much better. We reunite Kunitz with Geno and Neal. Sid gets a right handed Left wing, and we get a defensive thumper.

Any thoughts? Is the value right?

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:37 PM
  #134
Flat Stanley
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
what makes you think the assistants are the problem?

firing the assistants... keeping bylsma... seems like a rather unorthodox solution. seems like you just want to keep him around because he's a nice guy.
I'm not saying they are the problem, but instead of firing the team's head coach, fire Reirden and bring in a guy to take over the defensive structure and put a system in place, we can do that and keep Bylsma, can't we?

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:39 PM
  #135
Til the End of Time
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I'm not saying they are the problem, but instead of firing the team's head coach, fire Reirden and bring in a guy to take over the defensive structure and put a system in place, we can do that and keep Bylsma, can't we?
i like bylsma and feel bad for wanting him fired... do teams ever fire assistants and but keep the head coach? i only can think of instances when assistants leave because they got offered better jobs.

in terms of the coaching staff, i think it's safer to just clean house.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:40 PM
  #136
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Something needs to be done though, this team needs a shake up badly. Crosby and Malkin are in their mid 20s...the pens should be loading up for stanley cup runs right now, not trying to fix horrible systemic issues that should've been squashed back in 2006. This is an experienced group now and it's sad to see them play such sloppy, lazy, and undisciplined hockey. If not firing the coach, it should be a big trade or multiple trades. This team is significantly weaker than last years.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:41 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
what makes you think the assistants are the problem?

firing the assistants... keeping bylsma... seems like a rather unorthodox solution. seems like you just want to keep him around because he's a nice guy.
I don't know that firing the assistants would do anything, but it's worth noting that the "sticks in lanes, never take the man in front of the net" business described Todd Rierden's game to a T when he was a player.

But, like I said, I don't know that what TR wants to do differs from what DB wants the D to do. I'm inclined to think not.

And if one were to hire an assistant who has the D playing a way the HC does not want them to, why even have the HC?

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:49 PM
  #138
Flat Stanley
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I just don't think firing Bylsma would be a popular decision with the players (I know, who cares what they want).

But I was thinking we could give 2 former Penguins a call for assistant coaching jobs. Ulf Samuelsson and Bryan Trottier

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:51 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
Something needs to be done though, this team needs a shake up badly. Crosby and Malkin are in their mid 20s...the pens should be loading up for stanley cup runs right now, not trying to fix horrible systemic issues that should've been squashed back in 2006. This is an experienced group now and it's sad to see them play such sloppy, lazy, and undisciplined hockey. If not firing the coach, it should be a big trade or multiple trades. This team is significantly weaker than last years.
The most depressing part of the whole thing.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:11 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
What about trading Orpik + P. Sammuelson + 4th to Minn. for Seto + Clutterbuck

Then trade Kennedy + pick/Maata for a Stay at home D

Seto Sid Dupuis
Kunitz Malkin Neal
Bennett Sutter Clutterbuck
Cooke Vitale Adams
Glass

Tanger/Despres
Martin/ Stay at home Mystery Dman
Engo/Nisky
Bort

I think the bottom 6 looks much better. We reunite Kunitz with Geno and Neal. Sid gets a right handed Left wing, and we get a defensive thumper.

Any thoughts? Is the value right?
Where did Brooksie go?

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:12 PM
  #141
Ugene Malkin
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All this talk I'm hearing about trading away or keeping Malkin or Letang has me coming to grips this team needs something pretty big done. Double M was talking about this and he's in mind of keeping, Letang, and trading Geno, because of the package it would return. He's like how do you replace, Letang?


Here's how. You use your glutton of top D-prospects you've landed over the past few years. You will not get another Geno for a long long time.

Letang maybe a number one D-man here, but I see him as a Ryan Suter to what was the Suter/Weber tandem. Problem is we don't have a Weber to pair with him, it's either one or the other and never the entire package playing with him. If Orpik is the closest we have then that really isn't saying much. Letang for as long as he has been here, he hasn't progressed with puck handling, shooting and the PP with such hesitation he shows.

I'm sorry, but Letang is replaceable, and could be with two options, 1. being Joe Morrow, and later down the line with Pouliot.

I don't know if having a kid has himself in a mid life crisis at what 24, or is he just plain scared with the entire thing, and it's effecting his ability on the ice, whatever, he needs to get his head straighten out because neither are going away and it's effecting more than just himself.

For a number one defenceman, he looks like a rookie all over again. Well, guess what? If that's the case we might as well trade you and get the same results out of a rookie, but one who'll progress and not flat-line.

We can replace Letang, that PP should be his meal ticket, but it's more like toilet paper.

In this scenario I'm keeping, Geno. They shouldn't have a constant with their number one D-man not playing respectable hockey for a guy of his inkling.

If you look at the whole picture how you'd come up with anything different, then I don't think you grasp the entire picture. Writings on the wall for me.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:18 PM
  #142
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I don't know if I like the idea of Letang and a bunch of rookies on D in a couple years. I love Tanger, but he's still a spazz and has yet to show he can be our #1 in the postseason.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:21 PM
  #143
Til the End of Time
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i would keep malkin 10000000x over letang.

letang has the tools but not the toolbox. his contributions on the ice are less than the sum of his physical attributes. he's going to be overpaid on his next contract relative to what he actually provides. he's also maybe the biggest culprit of undisciplined play on this team. plus there is some semblance of d prospects that can possibly lessen the blow of losing letang.

malkin is a generational talent and provides generational contributions. he can be a hot-head, true. there is also nothing close to a second line center in the system. and if crosby is injured again and malkin's not here, this team is a lottery team.

not even worth discussing. when the pens won the cup, it was because of geno. if they win it again, it will be because of geno.

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03-01-2013, 05:27 PM
  #144
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not even worth discussing. when the pens won the cup, it was because of geno. if they win it again, it will be because of geno.
I love Geno as much as anyone, but there's so much revisionist history about that cup run. The Pens made it to the 3rd round because of Crosby. Both of them did well in the Carolina series (but Geno was obviously on another level) and then Geno carried the day in the finals.

The Pens won't win another cup (with this roster) unless both of their generational talents enter beast mode.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:27 PM
  #145
vodeni
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
All this talk I'm hearing about trading away or keeping Malkin or Letang has me coming to grips this team needs something pretty big done. Double M was talking about this and he's in mind of keeping, Letang, and trading Geno, because of the package it would return. He's like how do you replace, Letang?


Here's how. You use your glutton of top D-prospects you've landed over the past few years. You will not get another Geno for a long long time.

Letang maybe a number one D-man here, but I see him as a Ryan Suter to what was the Suter/Weber tandem. Problem is we don't have a Weber to pair with him, it's either one or the other and never the entire package playing with him. If Orpik is the closest we have then that really isn't saying much. Letang for as long as he has been here, he hasn't progressed with puck handling, shooting and the PP with such hesitation he shows.

I'm sorry, but Letang is replaceable, and could be with two options, 1. being Joe Morrow, and later down the line with Pouliot.

I don't know if having a kid has himself in a mid life crisis at what 24, or is he just plain scared with the entire thing, and it's effecting his ability on the ice, whatever, he needs to get his head straighten out because neither are going away and it's effecting more than just himself.

For a number one defenceman, he looks like a rookie all over again. Well, guess what? If that's the case we might as well trade you and get the same results out of a rookie, but one who'll progress and not flat-line.

We can replace Letang, that PP should be his meal ticket, but it's more like toilet paper.

In this scenario I'm keeping, Geno. They shouldn't have a constant with their number one D-man not playing respectable hockey for a guy of his inkling.

If you look at the whole picture how you'd come up with anything different, then I don't think you grasp the entire picture. Writings on the wall for me.
for all his supposedly great knowledge of hockey he is very Pittsburgh mainstream sucking up to conventional wisdom hockey establishment and media, which in translation means, suppresed hatred for Malkin, and defend Crosby, Flower, Letang and Orpik, no matter what happens on ice. How did this come about - no idea, but that's the fact.

So have them at it, trade Malkin, we know how it worked when another top 5 of all time hockey player was kicked out of town...

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:30 PM
  #146
Til the End of Time
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I love Geno as much as anyone, but there's so much revisionist history about that cup run. The Pens made it to the 3rd round because of Crosby. Both of them did well in the Carolina series (but Geno was obviously on another level) and then Geno carried the day in the finals.

The Pens won't win another cup (with this roster) unless both of their generational talents enter beast mode.
you're right and i totally agree.

i meant to contrast malkin's contributions with that of letang. letang was good in that run. but since he's been this teams top d-man they haven't done squat in the playoffs. i question whether he can lead the d-corps on a true contender.

crosby and malkin deserve darn near equal credit for the cup.

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03-01-2013, 05:32 PM
  #147
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Just don't complain when Letang goes to philly

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:39 PM
  #148
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We know that Madden all the time wanted to trade Malkin and keep Staal as second line center so noone should be surprised that his solution to anything is trading geno. The reason Malkin would bring more than Letang in a trade is that he's a better and more important player.

I guess that now when he can't debate keeping Staal over Malkin he just change it to Letang. No surprises here

For the record I believe Shero will try to keep both 58 and 71 as he should.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:41 PM
  #149
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Orpik - Martin
Niskanen - Letang
Despres - Engelland
......
......
A.K.A. It has nothing to do with the personnel in my opinion. It has to do with the system and effort given by the players.

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03-01-2013, 05:41 PM
  #150
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Here is sid's contract breakdown for the next 8 years. I dunno how fans could be mad doesen't geno deserve to get that as well.
2013-14 — $12 million
2014-15 — $12 million
2015-16 — $12 million
2016-17 — $10.9 million
2017-18 — $10.9 million
2018-19 — $10 million
2019-20 — $9 million
2020-21 — $9.6 million
That's almost an $11M AAV. There's no way Malkin gets that with the cap projected to be at $64.3M for each of the next two seasons. It would leave the Pens with less than $30M in cap space with 17 players to sign including 3 top-6 wingers and 3 top-4 defensemen.

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