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Why isn't the French league up there with other big ones?

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Old
03-06-2013, 06:01 AM
  #1
Muuri
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Why isn't the French league up there with other big ones?

Something I have always wondered. Why isn't League 1 on the same level as Premier League, Serie A(declining I know but still better) and La Liga?

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03-06-2013, 06:34 AM
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All these 3 leagues allow debts. French league doesn't allow it.
Add the taxes, the poor state of the stadiums (which allow less revenue), and you get why a league that produces a good chunk of world talent can't compete with the 4 leagues above it.

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03-06-2013, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
All these 3 leagues allow debts. French league doesn't allow it.
Add the taxes, the poor state of the stadiums (which allow less revenue), and you get why a league that produces a good chunk of world talent can't compete with the 4 leagues above it.
I think France did the right thing securing the next Euro. Germany for example still reaps the benefits of the 2006 World Cup and the top notch stadiums that came with it. I hope this will reduce the economic disadvantage French teams currently face.

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03-06-2013, 07:20 AM
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It will help the stadiums tremendously, but keep in mind that one stadium (Stade de France) doesn't even host a team.

That said, the main problem is that for the last 20 years, spanish, italian and english teams have been allowed to spend money they don't have, while french teams can't do that.
This has resulted in more competitive teams from those leagues, which has resulted in a huge difference in TV rights thus world wide popularity and thus product sales far different.

Basically, the gap has been huge because of a different set of rules. And it's only getting bigger (except for PSG and soon Monaco).

It's tiring really, but we have to face the truth : we can't compete financially and thus we can't compete in european competitions, especially under the new format.

That said, I think we're in the truth. Debts shouldn't be allowed. But the more honest approach usually doesn't pay off.

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03-06-2013, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
All these 3 leagues allow debts. French league doesn't allow it.
Add the taxes, the poor state of the stadiums (which allow less revenue), and you get why a league that produces a good chunk of world talent can't compete with the 4 leagues above it.
List of all teams finances here: http://www.lfp.fr/dncg/rapport_annue..._clubs_all.pdf

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03-06-2013, 10:00 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
It will help the stadiums tremendously, but keep in mind that one stadium (Stade de France) doesn't even host a team.

That said, the main problem is that for the last 20 years, spanish, italian and english teams have been allowed to spend money they don't have, while french teams can't do that.
This has resulted in more competitive teams from those leagues, which has resulted in a huge difference in TV rights thus world wide popularity and thus product sales far different.

Basically, the gap has been huge because of a different set of rules. And it's only getting bigger (except for PSG and soon Monaco).

It's tiring really, but we have to face the truth : we can't compete financially and thus we can't compete in european competitions, especially under the new format.

That said, I think we're in the truth. Debts shouldn't be allowed. But the more honest approach usually doesn't pay off.
I wasn't aware of all of this. Now I can understand your passion for French prospects and for Ligue 1 in general.

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03-06-2013, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
It will help the stadiums tremendously, but keep in mind that one stadium (Stade de France) doesn't even host a team.

That said, the main problem is that for the last 20 years, spanish, italian and english teams have been allowed to spend money they don't have, while french teams can't do that.
This has resulted in more competitive teams from those leagues, which has resulted in a huge difference in TV rights thus world wide popularity and thus product sales far different.

Basically, the gap has been huge because of a different set of rules. And it's only getting bigger (except for PSG and soon Monaco).

It's tiring really, but we have to face the truth : we can't compete financially and thus we can't compete in european competitions, especially under the new format.

That said, I think we're in the truth. Debts shouldn't be allowed. But the more honest approach usually doesn't pay off.
Honest question. How on earth will PSG be able to spend to their obvious ambitions without being able to go into debt? Not only in transfer money, but more importantly their wage bill? With the new upper level tax rate in France, I gotta imagine they’ll need to offer huge wages to the top players they want.

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03-06-2013, 11:43 AM
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Are Monaco's players exempt from the 75% tax rate?

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03-06-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Honest question. How on earth will PSG be able to spend to their obvious ambitions without being able to go into debt? Not only in transfer money, but more importantly their wage bill? With the new upper level tax rate in France, I gotta imagine they’ll need to offer huge wages to the top players they want.
Sponsorship deals. Some Qatar company is offering a ridiculous amount of money to sponsor PSG.

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Are Monaco's players exempt from the 75% tax rate?
Yes. Monaco has always been favoured for taxes (no taxes in Monaco), and now that they have one of the richest man on earth as owner, they'll soon be richer than PSG.
Problem is, it's s small town, with few fans. Not sure how they'll attract the Thiago Silvas or Ibras of the football world with 2000 fans every week.

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03-06-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
It will help the stadiums tremendously, but keep in mind that one stadium (Stade de France) doesn't even host a team.

That said, the main problem is that for the last 20 years, spanish, italian and english teams have been allowed to spend money they don't have, while french teams can't do that.
This has resulted in more competitive teams from those leagues, which has resulted in a huge difference in TV rights thus world wide popularity and thus product sales far different.

Basically, the gap has been huge because of a different set of rules. And it's only getting bigger (except for PSG and soon Monaco).

It's tiring really, but we have to face the truth : we can't compete financially and thus we can't compete in european competitions, especially under the new format.

That said, I think we're in the truth. Debts shouldn't be allowed. But the more honest approach usually doesn't pay off.
Are there new stadium plans already up?

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03-06-2013, 12:51 PM
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I've watched more Ligue 1 this season alone than what I have my entire life thanks to BeIN and Univision Deportes and the league is way too tactical for my liking.

I also think the league pays the lowest wages in comparison to England, Spain, Germany, Italy but they do develop some good talents

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03-06-2013, 12:55 PM
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Are there new stadium plans already up?
one would hope that the vélodrome in Marseille turns out amazing, that thing was terrible to look at during the building phase.

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03-06-2013, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
All these 3 leagues allow debts. French league doesn't allow it.
Add the taxes, the poor state of the stadiums (which allow less revenue), and you get why a league that produces a good chunk of world talent can't compete with the 4 leagues above it.
You have a point but apart from a periode in the 90s the french league was never able to compete with those 4 leagues. Heck the dutch, belgian, russian, ukranian, portuguese leagues have produced more wins in european cup competitions.

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03-06-2013, 02:08 PM
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And it's not like German clubs can go into heavy debt either, so France isn't alone in avoiding the fiscal irresponsibility of EPL, Serie A or La Liga.

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03-06-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Honest question. How on earth will PSG be able to spend to their obvious ambitions without being able to go into debt? Not only in transfer money, but more importantly their wage bill? With the new upper level tax rate in France, I gotta imagine they’ll need to offer huge wages to the top players they want.
Not only sponsorship but the owners can put the money in as gifts. Abramovich does not, but City's Sheikh Mansour appears to have done that, so PSG's owners may follow the same route.

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03-06-2013, 03:46 PM
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And it's not like German clubs can go into heavy debt either, so France isn't alone in avoiding the fiscal irresponsibility of EPL, Serie A or La Liga.
I don't know how it is in L1, but two of the three german CL competitiors this year are or were in heavy debt.

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03-06-2013, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
(...) Add the taxes, the poor state of the stadiums (which allow less revenue), and you get why a league that produces a good chunk of world talent can't compete with the 4 leagues above it.
According to a comparison of tax quotas for top salaries on wikipedia, the tax situation seemed to be generally similar in France, Spain, Italy, Germany and the UK, before Hollande introduced this wealth tax in 2012.

France hosted the WC 1998; the biggest 7 stadiums were renovated for that event. Neither Spain, Italy nor England did host a tournament afterwards.

Please do not take this as an argument against your explanations, but I just wondered, if these are the main reasons. From my distant point of view, it seems to me that club football in France is a little less popular than in many other countries, which leads to lower attendances. However, the Ligue 1 TV deal with Canal+ has often been hailed here in Germany as being better than the deals Bundesliga has been able to negotiate.

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03-06-2013, 04:36 PM
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I am probably wrong but it seems to me (based on my limited interactions) that the average french guy is not into football as much as the avg english/ german/ spanish/ italian guy is.

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03-06-2013, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Schalkenullvier View Post
I don't know how it is in L1, but two of the three german CL competitiors this year are or were in heavy debt.
Munich have no debts, and Dortmund have mostly payed off their stadium to go with record profits so they are not in heavy debt. I know Schalke are much worse off with their stadium, but that's still just 1 of the CL contenders and a generally unique team.

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03-06-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Cin View Post
Are there new stadium plans already up?
Lille has one of the very best stadiums in Europe. Lyon will have one soon. Parc des Princes and Velodrome are getting renovated.
All in all, yeah we should have much better stadiums afterwards, but only for a minority of teams.


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Originally Posted by NMF78 View Post
You have a point but apart from a periode in the 90s the french league was never able to compete with those 4 leagues. Heck the dutch, belgian, russian, ukranian, portuguese leagues have produced more wins in european cup competitions.
France only started to produce international level talent (on a regular basis) after 95.
Before that they had three nice periods : Reims in the 50s (2 C1 finals and arguably the second best teams of the period), St Etienne in the 70s (robbed of a C1 win in Glasgow) and the early 80s, where Bordeaux was dangerous but Platini chose to play for Juventus.

Since 92-95, France has developped great talent thanks to a complete overhaul of academies (the model was designed here), but very soon afterwards, player fled.

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Originally Posted by BSHH View Post
According to a comparison of tax quotas for top salaries on wikipedia, the tax situation seemed to be generally similar in France, Spain, Italy, Germany and the UK, before Hollande introduced this wealth tax in 2012.
No, France is the most taxed country in Europe I think. That was before the 1M€ tax.

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Originally Posted by BSHH View Post
France hosted the WC 1998; the biggest 7 stadiums were renovated for that event. Neither Spain, Italy nor England did host a tournament afterwards.
Since 1998, stadiums have evolved a lot.
Spain, Italy and England have debts allowed. My argument about stadiums was more targeted towards Germany's financial success.

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Please do not take this as an argument against your explanations, but I just wondered, if these are the main reasons. From my distant point of view, it seems to me that club football in France is a little less popular than in many other countries, which leads to lower attendances. However, the Ligue 1 TV deal with Canal+ has often been hailed here in Germany as being better than the deals Bundesliga has been able to negotiate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmk786 View Post
I am probably wrong but it seems to me (based on my limited interactions) that the average french guy is not into football as much as the avg english/ german/ spanish/ italian guy is.
It's quite possible yes. Definately depends on where, how and when, but maybe that coud be an argument if stadiums were empty. That's not the case, so I don't think your point (which as I said, is probably not wrong) impact finances.

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03-06-2013, 05:43 PM
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Munich have no debts, and Dortmund have mostly payed off their stadium to go with record profits so they are not in heavy debt. I know Schalke are much worse off with their stadium, but that's still just 1 of the CL contenders and a generally unique team.
I know Dortmund have managed their debt pretty well, but that doesn't change that they were ridicusously deep in ****, worse that Schalke ever was actually. I mean, Dortmund had liquidity problems. If the DFL had enforced their rules equally, both Dortmund and Schalke had been had their licenses removed. But obviously they are two of the three biggest german Clubs, so the league bent the rules a little I think.

I didn't mean to complain, just disagreed with you that german clubs can't go into heavy debt.

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03-06-2013, 05:45 PM
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well, Rugby is wuite popular in France, especially in the south, no? France have also had a good Basketball team and the best Handball team bar none over the last few years. I don't know what impact that had. Cycling seems to be popular too

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03-06-2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Schalkenullvier View Post
I know Dortmund have managed their debt pretty well, but that doesn't change that they were ridicusously deep in ****, worse that Schalke ever was actually. I mean, Dortmund had liquidity problems. If the DFL had enforced their rules equally, both Dortmund and Schalke had been had their licenses removed. But obviously they are two of the three biggest german Clubs, so the league bent the rules a little I think.

I didn't mean to complain, just disagreed with you that german clubs can't go into heavy debt.
But that's the thing, Dortmund and Schalke got treated specially where clubs like Aachen and many others had their licenses taken away, that's why you saw Furth just renovate their old stadium instead of going out and building themselves a new one like they planned on once they secured first league football.

And most of Dortmund's debts were built up in the post tv deal boom years, before that all crashed and much of the more recent legislation that has restructured the german game was brought in, since then they've shed those debts amazingly well. Schalke's just completely special cause they'd had pretty high levels of debt for a long time now and haven't seen the change in either direction that has been seen with Dortmund. Although even they're getting closer and closer to having their stadium debts covered.

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03-06-2013, 06:46 PM
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But that's the thing, Dortmund and Schalke got treated specially where clubs like Aachen and many others had their licenses taken away, that's why you saw Furth just renovate their old stadium instead of going out and building themselves a new one like they planned on once they secured first league football.

And most of Dortmund's debts were built up in the post tv deal boom years, before that all crashed and much of the more recent legislation that has restructured the german game was brought in, since then they've shed those debts amazingly well. Schalke's just completely special cause they'd had pretty high levels of debt for a long time now and haven't seen the change in either direction that has been seen with Dortmund. Although even they're getting closer and closer to having their stadium debts covered.
To the first point: Yeah, but do you think the same would have happened in France? Honest question, I have no idea. Evilo spaeks like going in debt like would have never been allowed to happen in france.

Dortmund's debt was partially due to the Leo Kirch thing... but honestly, they had gone megalomaniac. They spent 50 m € in 2001. Euros, not mark! It was crazy. Just a mess, and it had to do with them joining the exchange market just as much as with Kirch.

At first, Dortmund tried to do the same as Schalke. Qualify for the CL, and then try to cover your debts with that. It didn't work because they were a) in a worse financial situation and b) missed the CL fairly quickly. I mean, Schalke built a new stadium; The Westfalenstadion was merely rebuilt. In the early 2000s, until Aki righted the ship, Dortmund spent even less wise than Schalke.

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03-06-2013, 07:19 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Schalkenullvier View Post
To the first point: Yeah, but do you think the same would have happened in France? Honest question, I have no idea. Evilo spaeks like going in debt like would have never been allowed to happen in france.

Dortmund's debt was partially due to the Leo Kirch thing... but honestly, they had gone megalomaniac. They spent 50 m € in 2001. Euros, not mark! It was crazy. Just a mess, and it had to do with them joining the exchange market just as much as with Kirch.

At first, Dortmund tried to do the same as Schalke. Qualify for the CL, and then try to cover your debts with that. It didn't work because they were a) in a worse financial situation and b) missed the CL fairly quickly. I mean, Schalke built a new stadium; The Westfalenstadion was merely rebuilt. In the early 2000s, until Aki righted the ship, Dortmund spent even less wise than Schalke.
I think not, but again I'll let Evilo step in with an answer as he's the french expert on this board. My point was more that the Bundesliga has thrived because it's instituted the type of rules that seem to be strangling top flight french clubs. That's what's interesting to me.

Dortmund had absolutely gone out of their damn minds, and I disliked them for many years, but since the BL got its collective heads out of their collective ***** and stopped going after the pricey import, they, like many in the league have thrived and made themselves a very enviable club.

Just for the record, I think all of you big teams spend crazy money, I'm a Union Berlin fan, our team got fans to help rebuild the stadium cause we're too cool for big debts.

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