HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Name past (and current) players who were better than their stats indicated

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-02-2013, 06:43 PM
  #26
LeBlondeDemon10
BlindLemon Haystacks
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,059
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, agree with you on that one. The Habs however had so much depth, and back in the day "nurtured" their prospects & rookies the old fashioned way, some would say "the right way". A luxury of riches the rest of the league didnt enjoy.... but back to Buffalo, Danny Gare was another. Terrific player, actually displacing Rene' Robert from the French Connection Line on the PP on Right Wing, Robert moved back & playing the point. Gare also utilized heavily on the PK. Not a big guy, but smart, savvy.
I was thinking of the Teeder Kennedy thread and Bobby Hull is a guy my dad used to say,"would have scored 60-70 goals a year if he had used a straight blade like Teeder Kennedy." His recollection of Hull was shooting 2 feet over the net with that "damned curved stick." Needless to say, I had to use a straight blade my first few years of playing and make tape to tape backhand passes. Personally, I don't know if a straight blade would have helped Hull, but looking at his stick on footage he had a banana going on there.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 06:08 AM
  #27
CC96
Serious Offender
 
CC96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 12,549
vCash: 500
Teppo Numminen: he never put up sexy point totals during his career but he was one of the most rock-solid defenseman around in the 90's and early 2000's.

CC96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 07:04 AM
  #28
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,011
vCash: 500
Datsyuk - if you came from another galaxy where noone hear of him and take just brief look on stats, you would never appreciate his game
Satan - he was way better forward than his NHL stats show

Obvioulsy, here applies any defensive forward (defensman even more) who sacrifies his offense for his team and it's a long list.

begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 07:21 AM
  #29
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,691
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsMike View Post
Currently, Datsyuk definitely comes to mind.
I've seen a few mentions of Datsyuk and I don't think he really fits.

He's a great two-way player obviously, but his form of defense is perfectly captured by the widely available "takeaways" stat. In fact, I think his defense actually got overrated a bit because of the fascination with that shiny new statistic.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 07:24 AM
  #30
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,691
vCash: 500
Eilas and Hitchcock era-Modano fit the bill I think, as talented offensive forwards who bought into defense-first systems.

Scott Stevens and Mark Messier both fit, and both for the same reason - basically, they were terrifying. They flat out scared opponents into playing worse, and that's something that wouldn't be accounted for in either of their personal stats. And they basically scared teammates into playing better.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 07:47 AM
  #31
unknown33
Registered User
 
unknown33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Europe
Country: Marshall Islands
Posts: 3,391
vCash: 500
Frank Nighbor?

unknown33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 08:26 AM
  #32
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,691
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Frank Nighbor?
ooh good one.

I honestly have no idea if playing so well defensively held back his offense or not.

But playmakers who played before WW2 are definitely better than their point totals because the NHL seems to have inconsistently counted assists until after the war.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 11:53 AM
  #33
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,757
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Mike Peca
Pierre Turgeon

currently, Bozak & Vermette
kind of the opposite case, isn't he?

i'm going to say trevor linden from '89 to '96. i mean, there's a reason why we regularly get posts, even threads, asking "what was so great about trevor linden?" in those years, he never topped 80 points, but his contributions were the equivalent of a 100 point guy. not a 120 point hart trophy guy mind you, but definitely a 100 point mid-season all-star guy.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 04:33 PM
  #34
BobbyAwe
Registered User
 
BobbyAwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South Carolina
Country: United States
Posts: 1,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post

Derek Sanderson; Possibly the most underrated player of all time.
i have made that same statement before on these boards before but i thought no one else agreed with me. Behind Orr, and along with Esposito, Derek was the most important cog in the late 60's, early 70's Boston machine.

BobbyAwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 04:36 PM
  #35
BobbyAwe
Registered User
 
BobbyAwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South Carolina
Country: United States
Posts: 1,965
vCash: 500
Biased Bruin's fan here but I'll say Sanderson from the past and Bergeron from the present.

BobbyAwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 05:56 PM
  #37
feffan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Malmö
Country: Sweden
Posts: 740
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Coyote 96 View Post
Teppo Numminen: he never put up sexy point totals during his career but he was one of the most rock-solid defenseman around in the 90's and early 2000's.
Agreed. Mentioned him in the thread about the top five at every position during the DPE as someone I think would get some spread votes. I personally probably place him somewhere 10-15 that period, but someone could probably have good arguments for him higher. A shame he never got to win anything with Finland or during his 20 (!) years in the leauge.

feffan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 01:49 AM
  #38
RussianFive
Rookie User
 
RussianFive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 17
vCash: 500
Slava Kozlov comes to mind.

852 points in 1182 NHL games. Two Stanley Cups. 79 points in 114 playoff games. 12 game winning playoff goals. Probably the most overlooked member of the Russian Five, Kozlov was often the goalscorer for the quintet. He was a solid everyday performer for Detroit and unlike other first/second line wingers Detroit had during the era, such as Ray Sheppard or Martin Lapointe, Kozlov didn't see his point totals suffer after leaving.

After leaving the Red Wings, he never really settled during his season in Buffalo, due to a combination of injury and resentment at being traded from Detroit. He fared much better in Atlanta and had his best scoring years with the Thrashers. He also diversified his game, by becoming more the creator, rather than the scoring threat. With the exception of his last season in Atlanta, he was always in the top five in team scoring for the Thrashers.

RussianFive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 03:14 AM
  #39
Sticks and Pucks
Registered User
 
Sticks and Pucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 500
How about Dan Girardi? Rock solid defenseman who gets tonnes of ice time and PK time but doesn't have the sexy points. If you look on the Rangers team stats without knowing about any of the players, you would think Girardi is just another dime a dozen defenseman.

Sticks and Pucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 07:33 AM
  #40
SillyRabbit
Trix Are For Kids
 
SillyRabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,719
vCash: 500
Homer vote for Trevor Linden.

Great guy on and off the ice, heart and soul of the Canucks, always came through come playoff time. All time leader in Game 7 goals, just an overall clutch player.

SillyRabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 12:32 PM
  #41
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 10,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstOverallLine View Post
How about Dan Girardi? Rock solid defenseman who gets tonnes of ice time and PK time but doesn't have the sexy points. If you look on the Rangers team stats without knowing about any of the players, you would think Girardi is just another dime a dozen defenseman.
I think TOI is a pretty fundamental stat by which to evaluate defensemen, so Girardi looks about as good as he plays. He's got really gaudy blocked shots and hit statistics too, which I've seen people cite while overrating him (he's always been the weaker half of the Rags top pairing).

I also don't think people realize just how little Thomas Vanek played compared to his peers from 2007 to Ruff's firing. During this stretch, Lindy was more stingy with first line TOI than any coach in the league, and had TV played the 18-20 minutes a night per season he deserved, his statline and reputation would be drastically altered.

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 01:00 PM
  #42
Tkachuk4MVP
23 Years of Fail
 
Tkachuk4MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 9,428
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
Homer pick: Mike Modano

At least during his prime (96-03) I would have put him up head to head vs anyone. He didnt have the overall offensive numbers as counterparts like Sakic, Forsberg, and Lindros, (Stars system?) but head to head in a game he wasn't outmatched in the least. We look back and his numbers aren't as good and that's what people will see years from now, but I don't think that tells the story at all.

I'm always surprised when I look back at Modano's stats because I'd always thought of him as one of the top centers in the game during the 90s and early 00s. Granted 560 goals is nothing to sniff at, but he only hit 90+ points twice in his career (once during that ridiculous '92-'93 season) and finished well below a PPG overall. But like you mentioned, he never looked out of place when going up against the best players of that era.

Tkachuk4MVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 10:24 PM
  #43
whatname
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 189
vCash: 500
most will disagree with me, but one person on this list (and I'm not saying he is the best choice for the subject at hand) is Alexei Kovalev. I'm aware he has over 400 goals and 1000 points, however he didn't average over 1ppg in most seasons. Great puck handling skills, decent speed, and a deadly shot, although he wasn't the smartest player out there.

whatname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 10:46 PM
  #44
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,221
vCash: 500
<------------ these guys


Lots of good mentions so far in here though.

And some not so good ones.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 08:32 PM
  #45
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've seen a few mentions of Datsyuk and I don't think he really fits.

He's a great two-way player obviously, but his form of defense is perfectly captured by the widely available "takeaways" stat. In fact, I think his defense actually got overrated a bit because of the fascination with that shiny new statistic.
datsyuk is famous for takeaways, but that is not the most important aspect of his defensive play. his best asset is his ability to control possession, part of which comes from being able to steal pucks, but is mostly due to his style of play.

for example, datsyuk and zetterberg are similar in their overall defensive play, obviously play in the same environment, and zetterberg has better defensive positioning, but datsyuk is a superior possession player, so he has been scored on a lot less and allowed many fewer shots than zetterberg since they separated in '09, even when their matchups have been similar.

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 08:58 PM
  #46
tjcurrie
Registered User
 
tjcurrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Gibbons, Alberta
Posts: 3,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
I'm always surprised when I look back at Modano's stats because I'd always thought of him as one of the top centers in the game during the 90s and early 00s. Granted 560 goals is nothing to sniff at, but he only hit 90+ points twice in his career (once during that ridiculous '92-'93 season) and finished well below a PPG overall. But like you mentioned, he never looked out of place when going up against the best players of that era.
Not to make excuses for him, (well maybe that's what I'm doing) but his 03-4 season where he went through all that personal turmoil really screwed him as far as points per game - that and just continuing to play beyond when he was all that effective offensively.

Besides that, he really only averaged about 10 points less per when compared to Sakic. Add that up over a long period of time and it looks like a huge difference. But really when you put them up head to head (especially in that 7-8 year time frame indicated) he was every bit as good on the ice.

I think it was Bob Gainey that said that if Modano had been with say Pittsburgh or another team built on offense, he'd be putting up 100 point seasons.

Kills me that Marchment took his knee out in the 97-98 season when he was leading the league 30 games in and was probably the best player going at that point. I really feel that was his defining season like Sakic's 2000-01. That's the one knock on him is that he never really had that. Damn you Marchment.


Last edited by tjcurrie: 03-05-2013 at 09:04 PM.
tjcurrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 09:45 PM
  #47
The Grouch
Enraged
 
The Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 1,685
vCash: 500
Joel Otto - Great all around game, quality intangibles mixed with superior toughness, a valuable player for many years. He lacked offensive flair, and by extension seems to be under-recognized.

Dirk Graham - Similar to Otto, he was a complete player with excellent intangibles.

Barclay Plager - A pillar on defense, a consistent offensive contributor, and exemplary leadership abilities.

The Grouch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 09:51 PM
  #48
tjcurrie
Registered User
 
tjcurrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Gibbons, Alberta
Posts: 3,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
Joel Otto - Great all around game, quality intangibles mixed with superior toughness, a valuable player for many years. He lacked offensive flair, and by extension seems to be under-recognized.

Dirk Graham - Similar to Otto, he was a complete player with excellent intangibles.

Barclay Plager - A pillar on defense, a consistent offensive contributor, and exemplary leadership abilities.
Love Dirk Graham. We (Minnesota) never should have traded him.

tjcurrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 09:52 PM
  #49
DisgruntledGoat
Registered User
 
DisgruntledGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,170
vCash: 500
I'll throw out Adam Foote. Everyone knows, of course, that he was a solid defensive defenseman but, at his best, he was game-changing in that regard. Big, mean, fast, and ferocious. I think people forget how instrumental he was in 2002 Olympic finals, matched up against the big U.S power-forwards.

Even knowing that he was a defense-first guy, its still kind of ridiculous to look back and see that he only hit 30 points twice, considering how prominent he was amongst blueliners of that era.

DisgruntledGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 10:39 PM
  #50
Ogie Goldthorpe
Piloted Ogre Hog
 
Ogie Goldthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NS via BC
Posts: 2,540
vCash: 500
Martin Gelinas... played the body... could score you 30+ goals in a good year... gave 110% all the time... clutch as ****.

Wayne Cashman... played the body... could score you 30 goals in a good year... gave 110% all the time... tough as ****.

Ogie Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:22 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.