HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Notices

The media is not all over Kessel's goal production because...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-03-2013, 08:17 PM
  #101
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by barilko05 View Post
Stanley Cup winning team? Sure. Star laden? Hardly.
Vezina winning goalie
Norris winning Captain
Selke Winning Center

BEst Power Forward in the game.

THey may not be "Stars" but Holy crap batman!

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 08:28 PM
  #102
buntek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 536
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Oh, so he's playing sheltered minutes as a 2nd line winger, not even on the 1st line facing the opposition's best? I see.

That doesn't change the fact that Toews and Thornton are better players than Seguin, got it? I don't understand the hate people heave at Kessel because of the trade. Just because Seguin was drafted at #2 doesn't mean he's an automatic franchise player or better than Kessel -- heck David Legwand was drafted #2 overall.

Kadri was in the AHL because Wilson and Burke thought it was best for his development, though I'm sure he would have given Seguin's 22 pt rookie campaign a run for the money had he been given the chance to play with the Leafs much earlier. Burke developed Bobby Ryan the same way.

Not all drafts are the same, you have to look at a player for what they are, how they were developed and how they play, and right now Kadri (though not much older and some called a bust) is playing better than Seguin, who is supposed to be some kind of an elite franchise centre...but not playing centre. The irony.

You know what is absurd? The continual hate against Kessel!
Everyone has an opinion pal. Do you love everyone on the Leafs?

buntek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 08:35 PM
  #103
JetsHomer
Registered User
 
JetsHomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,271
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Either way it's good for the buds
Uh... except for the fact that Kessel is still a minus player.
Even on a team that scores more goals than it allows.

So when Kessel is on the ice, it is more likely the OTHER team will score, not the leafs.

How could that possibly be spun into a postitive?
I'm not a fan of the Kessal trade But to be fair to him powerplay doesn't count towards plus minus and he has 7 of his 16 points on the Pp.

JetsHomer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 09:34 PM
  #104
Superstar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,592
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buntek View Post
Everyone has an opinion pal. Do you love everyone on the Leafs?
Nice effort, pal. And the answer is "no", but I don't hate everything that's Burke or everything about the Kessel trade like it's armageddon.

Superstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 09:35 PM
  #105
Philkessel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
And Seguin is leading his entire elite cup contending team in +/-.
While Kessel is somewhere near 20th on his team.


The Kessel apocalypse was just such a bad trade. Such a ridiculous and humiliating trade.
It will be Burkes legacy. A pathetic, disgusting trade.
thats not how it works but when would logic enter into anything

Philkessel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 09:38 PM
  #106
iPunch
Leafs Fan
 
iPunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,065
vCash: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Either way it's good for the buds?

Uh... except for the fact that Kessel is still a minus player.
Even on a team that scores more goals than it allows.

So when Kessel is on the ice, it is more likely the OTHER team will score, not the leafs.

How could that possibly be spun into a postitive?
Want to know who else is a minus player on a team that scores more goals than it allows? Malkin.


Last edited by iPunch: 03-03-2013 at 11:47 PM.
iPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 09:47 PM
  #107
Superstar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,592
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Kessel is a 7 year veteran.
Seguin is a 3rd year 21 year old player.

Yet it's STILL arguable which is RIGHT NOW the better player.

Seguin is leading his star laden team in plus/minus and is unquestionably better defensively.
Kessel is showcasing his usual pathetic plus minus... even with a team that scores more goals than they allow.

Both have a lack luster 4 goals.
Kessel has more assists... but has first line minutes and first line powerplay time.

It's arguable who is better RIGHT NOW. Let alone considering that Seguin is still growing... while Kessel has more than likely reached his prime.

It's a PATHETIC trade just when comparing Seguin to Kessel.
When you add in Hamilton, it becomes flat out humiliating.,
Seguin has more to prove as a player if you think he's better than Kessel. And what do you say about Kessel's +23 as a less matured and developed 21 year old playing with a worse Bruins' team? So please, don't use plus/minus stats to justify that Seguin is a better player -- that entire Bruins' team under which Seguin plays is a much better defensive team than the Leafs under Wilson for the majority of Kessel's time here. Now under Carlyle, it's only beginning to turn around and we can't even say the Leafs are definitely making the playoffs. Our goal-tending hasn't stabilized for how many years now? And the same guys crapping all over our #1 D Phaneuf's defensive liabilities are some of the same ones crapping all over Kessel's plus/minus stats. You wanna praise Seguin's plus/minus? Thank Chara, Thomas, Rask, Bergeron, etc..

Superstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 10:18 PM
  #108
My Sweet Shadow
Registered User
 
My Sweet Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sioux Lookout, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,644
vCash: 500
The Leafs are playing well and Kessel is still putting up points, so I'm not going to start complaining over minor issues.

My Sweet Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 10:28 PM
  #109
sommervr
Registered User
 
sommervr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,123
vCash: 500
Well Kessel is RC problem now. Hopefully he can turn him around. I am sure they will get along famously.

sommervr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 12:16 AM
  #110
Calacatz
Pak-trick!
 
Calacatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,178
vCash: 500
Kessel will score 10 goals over the next 14 games and everyone will lick his ass again.. no worries..

I like his skill personally but he is also extremely soft on the puck and in his own end working the boards... Things that drive me nuts watching on TV I can only imagine what RC is thinking

Calacatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 12:46 AM
  #111
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,871
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
Want to know who else is a minus player on a team that scores more goals than it allows? Malkin.
What a bum, we should see if maybe we could get Geno plus for Fraser, who is kicking ass in plus minus.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 12:48 AM
  #112
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,871
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
And Seguin is leading his entire elite cup contending team in +/-.
While Kessel is somewhere near 20th on his team.

The Kessel apocalypse was just such a bad trade. Such a ridiculous and humiliating trade.
It will be Burkes legacy. A pathetic, disgusting trade.
I agree. What kinda moronic GM trades a 21 year old budding star for draft picks?
A disgusting trade indeed.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 03:45 AM
  #113
Disgruntled Observer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I agree. What kinda moronic GM trades a 21 year old budding star for draft picks?
A disgusting trade indeed.
Hamilton and Seguin together have 7 goals and 27 points compared to Kessel's 4 goals and 15 points.
AND THAT'S COMPARING A ROOKIE AND 3RD YEAR PLAYER TO A 7 ****ING YEAR VETERAN!!!!!!

Good ****ING CHRIST is Burke ever a ****ing idiot. It's such a disastrous ****ing trade.
I just can't ****ing take it anymore.

Disgruntled Observer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 03:57 AM
  #114
Disgruntled Observer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Seguin has more to prove as a player if you think he's better than Kessel. And what do you say about Kessel's +23 as a less matured and developed 21 year old playing with a worse Bruins' team? So please, don't use plus/minus stats to justify that Seguin is a better player -- that entire Bruins' team under which Seguin plays is a much better defensive team than the Leafs under Wilson for the majority of Kessel's time here. Now under Carlyle, it's only beginning to turn around and we can't even say the Leafs are definitely making the playoffs. Our goal-tending hasn't stabilized for how many years now? And the same guys crapping all over our #1 D Phaneuf's defensive liabilities are some of the same ones crapping all over Kessel's plus/minus stats. You wanna praise Seguin's plus/minus? Thank Chara, Thomas, Rask, Bergeron, etc..
Plus/minus works best when comparing to the players own team.

Kessel has one of the worst +/-'s of all the leafs forwards.
The other forwards on the leafs (who have MUCH higher +/-'s) have the EXACT same goalies behind them, the EXACT same defensemen behind them, under the EXACT same coaching system.
Yet some of them are as high as +13, while Kessel is in the negatives.

Similarly, the other forwards on Boston have the EXACT same goalie, defensemen, and system as Tyler Seguin, but Seguin still has the highest +/- on the entire star laden ****ing team.

Even when Kessel had that one lucky year with a high plus minus on the star laden Bruins team, it still was mediocre WHEN COMPARED TO THE REST OF HIS TEAM!!!!

Nobody is saying that plus/minus is a 'be all end all' statistic.
But combined with observation of Kessel's pathetic defensive effort, it's pretty safe to say that that he doesn't play a complete game... and it reflects often in the amount of goals that go in against the leafs when Kessel is on the ice.

Disgruntled Observer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 04:03 AM
  #115
tml145
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,505
vCash: 500
its not fair to kessel to judge him on the trade

ya it was a bad trade

but kessel wouldn't be a better player if it wasn't a bad trade

sguin and hamilton have nothing to do with kessel

tml145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 04:13 AM
  #116
showtime8
Registered User
 
showtime8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Plus/minus works best when comparing to the players own team.

Kessel has one of the worst +/-'s of all the leafs forwards.
The other forwards on the leafs (who have MUCH higher +/-'s) have the EXACT same goalies behind them, the EXACT same defensemen behind them, under the EXACT same coaching system.
Yet some of them are as high as +13, while Kessel is in the negatives.

Similarly, the other forwards on Boston have the EXACT same goalie, defensemen, and system as Tyler Seguin, but Seguin still has the highest +/- on the entire star laden ****ing team.

Even when Kessel had that one lucky year with a high plus minus on the star laden Bruins team, it still was mediocre WHEN COMPARED TO THE REST OF HIS TEAM!!!!

Nobody is saying that plus/minus is a 'be all end all' statistic.
But combined with observation of Kessel's pathetic defensive effort, it's pretty safe to say that that he doesn't play a complete game... and it reflects often in the amount of goals that go in against the leafs when Kessel is on the ice.
I'm going to have to add to your point here because I agree with what you're saying.

I also think you have to add into account that you don't get plus/minus when you are on the power play. That being said, you would expect his goal or point total to be a bit higher and could live with a lower plus/minus if he was getting more from that aspect. In comparison, Kadri has 4 power play goals and Kessel only has 2 in a lot more time.

I think that you can be all over Kessel's game in the media because the only reason that you brought him in here was to score. He's playing a better 200 foot game than he was, yes, but he's not going to fight, check or win you a crucial draw. His only job is to score and if he's not doing that, then he's not doing his role.

showtime8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 05:12 AM
  #117
NIKO G
TWITTER: @NJG_ITA
 
NIKO G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 126
vCash: 500
I don't think thus far even with the slump that Kessel has been in is really that bad, It's only bad if you're looking at it from the perspective of most people that inflate Kessel's skill and value, He's not an elite player like Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin, etc... Kessel is a compliment player who need's other people around the same skill or better then his to be a truly elite offensive force, I think once Lupul is back he will start producing more, Their will be more skill and offensive-ness to compliment his game. But it will also free up a lot more space for Kessel with someone also having to cover the other offensive threat instead of just mainly playing and watching out for Kessel.

And in my opinion.... I still to this day have no idea why Kessel is not playing left wing...
His shot is lethal from the left side and he doesn't need to cut to the middle from the boards as often (that's where he loses the puck a good chunk of the time). Also makes it much easier for him on one timer's from the left side or realising a quick shot from a pass.

If were healthy and stay that way i think we'd be alot higher up in the rankings right now cause most of the games we lost we were missing a crucial piece. and it showed in most of the games.

Phil Kessel - Tyler Bozak - Joffrey Lupul
Matt Frattin - Nazem Kadri - James Van-Riemsdyk
Clarke MacArthur - Joe Colborne (Mikhail Grabovski) - Nikolai Kulemin
Frazer McLaren - Jay McClement - Leo Komarov

Dion Phaneuf - Korbinian Holzer
Mike Kostka - Jake Gardiner (John-Michael Liles)
Mark Fraser - Cody Franson

James Reimer
Ben Scrivens


Probly the best line-up you can run right now, I'd still like to see some trades tho peferably:

Mike Komisarek: (Trade / Compliance Buyout)
Carl Gunnarsson: (Trade -- If not keep him as a Depth D-man)
Mike Brown: (Trade / Waive -- Also free's up a spot for a younger player to come in as a depth player and show what they can do or offer)
Mikhail Grabovski: (Trade -- I'd eventually want Colborne in Grabovski's 3rd Line Center role)

NIKO G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 05:36 AM
  #118
416Leafer
Registered User
 
416Leafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Hamilton and Seguin together have 7 goals and 27 points compared to Kessel's 4 goals and 15 points.
AND THAT'S COMPARING A ROOKIE AND 3RD YEAR PLAYER TO A 7 ****ING YEAR VETERAN!!!!!!

Good ****ING CHRIST is Burke ever a ****ing idiot. It's such a disastrous ****ing trade.
I just can't ****ing take it anymore.
Well the trade is what it is, hard to still get upset about the trade itself.

I only personally get annoyed when I see some Leafs fans still defending the trade, still trying to find the smallest scraps of information they can use to defend the trade. I honestly cant tell if theyre just being trolls, because I cannot believe that any semi-rational person could look at that trade and say that Toronto won the trade or that it was a good move.

Kessel is what he is, a highly skilled player, one of the best shots in the game. But has possibly the most incomplete game out of any "star" player in the entire league.

416Leafer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 05:47 AM
  #119
DaveT83*
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,760
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Seguin has more to prove as a player if you think he's better than Kessel. And what do you say about Kessel's +23 as a less matured and developed 21 year old playing with a worse Bruins' team? So please, don't use plus/minus stats to justify that Seguin is a better player -- that entire Bruins' team under which Seguin plays is a much better defensive team than the Leafs under Wilson for the majority of Kessel's time here. Now under Carlyle, it's only beginning to turn around and we can't even say the Leafs are definitely making the playoffs. Our goal-tending hasn't stabilized for how many years now? And the same guys crapping all over our #1 D Phaneuf's defensive liabilities are some of the same ones crapping all over Kessel's plus/minus stats. You wanna praise Seguin's plus/minus? Thank Chara, Thomas, Rask, Bergeron, etc..
So Kessel is no good because the team is no good?

Cool story

DaveT83* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 05:54 AM
  #120
DaveT83*
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,760
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
I'm going to have to add to your point here because I agree with what you're saying.

I also think you have to add into account that you don't get plus/minus when you are on the power play. That being said, you would expect his goal or point total to be a bit higher and could live with a lower plus/minus if he was getting more from that aspect. In comparison, Kadri has 4 power play goals and Kessel only has 2 in a lot more time.

I think that you can be all over Kessel's game in the media because the only reason that you brought him in here was to score. He's playing a better 200 foot game than he was, yes, but he's not going to fight, check or win you a crucial draw. His only job is to score and if he's not doing that, then he's not doing his role.
But then every player in the NHL would get their PP scores tabulated as well ... so I doubt his +/- is impacted that greatly overall.

DaveT83* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 07:28 AM
  #121
Brewsky
King Of The Ice Mugs
 
Brewsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: King County
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,045
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Brewsky Send a message via AIM to Brewsky Send a message via MSN to Brewsky Send a message via Yahoo to Brewsky Send a message via Skype™ to Brewsky
Real reason, Nazem the Dream.

Brewsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 07:47 AM
  #122
showtime8
Registered User
 
showtime8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
But then every player in the NHL would get their PP scores tabulated as well ... so I doubt his +/- is impacted that greatly overall.
But how many players actually play on the powerplay?

The important part that I was trying to point out was that he should have more points from the powerplay and it would be more acceptable if he had more points and a lesser plus/minus.

showtime8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 07:57 AM
  #123
ACC1224
Burke was right.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 27,914
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Well the trade is what it is, hard to still get upset about the trade itself.

I only personally get annoyed when I see some Leafs fans still defending the trade, still trying to find the smallest scraps of information they can use to defend the trade. I honestly cant tell if theyre just being trolls, because I cannot believe that any semi-rational person could look at that trade and say that Toronto won the trade or that it was a good move.

Kessel is what he is, a highly skilled player, one of the best shots in the game. But has possibly the most incomplete game out of any "star" player in the entire league.
Leaf fans rarely if ever bring up the Trade. Those who can't move on from Burke always do.

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 08:02 AM
  #124
Joey Hoser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Guelph
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,277
vCash: 500
Will there ever come a day when we no longer have to hear about the Kessel trade? What is it going to take for people to get over this?

Joey Hoser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2013, 08:12 AM
  #125
achtungbaby
Registered User
 
achtungbaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I agree. What kinda moronic GM trades a 21 year old budding star for draft picks?
A disgusting trade indeed.
Considering that Boston won a cup without Kessel and the Leafs went nowhere with him, I think Bostons GM read the tea leaves regarding his teams position a lot better than ours did.

achtungbaby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:48 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.