HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Is the Ovechkin story unprecedented in hockey history?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-02-2013, 04:21 PM
  #1
SnowblindNYR
Registered User
 
SnowblindNYR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 24,977
vCash: 500
Is the Ovechkin story unprecedented in hockey history?

I can't think of a similar story in all of sports. Ovechkin for a long time (05-06 - 09-10), that's 5 seasons was easily top 2 in the world, probably considered #1 by most. He had an all time great stretch. Had the first 60 goal season in what almost 15 years? If he continued that pace most of his career he'd be a first ballot HOFer (I guess he still may be a HOFer). Now the last 3 seasons he's been a very good player at best. If he played like this his whole career he'd be a forgettable good player from this era. Has any player fallen from grace after such a prolonged period of excellence? Jim Carey had what 1 or 2 seasons? 1 player I can think of was Theodore. However his success wasn't as good for as long.

SnowblindNYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 04:29 PM
  #2
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 41,591
vCash: 500
Every great player falls from grace to some extent after a prolonged period of excellence...

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 04:31 PM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,456
vCash: 500
Quick falls from grace happen a lot, but there's usually a reason: too much partying (Busher Jackson), car crash (Guy Lafleur), injuries (Paul Kariya). Ovechkin is unusual in that there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for his fall.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 04:31 PM
  #4
SnowblindNYR
Registered User
 
SnowblindNYR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 24,977
vCash: 500
Sorry forgot to say at such a young age. He was like 25. Should be just entering his prime.

SnowblindNYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:11 PM
  #5
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,226
vCash: 500
Terry Sawchuk

Terry Sawchuk went from dominant 1950-1955 to very good the rest of his career. Only one who started dominant then declined similar to Ovechkin.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:11 PM
  #6
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 41,591
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Sorry forgot to say at such a young age. He was like 25. Should be just entering his prime.
Ovechkin is 27. At the same age, Paul Kariya just about had his best days behind him too, same with Dany Heatley. Lecavalier is another one who dropped off after 27-28.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:13 PM
  #7
vadim sharifijanov
ugh
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Quick falls from grace happen a lot, but there's usually a reason: too much partying (Busher Jackson), car crash (Guy Lafleur), injuries (Paul Kariya). Ovechkin is unusual in that there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for his fall.
it's also anomalous because he was one of the five best players in the game from the moment he began his pro career. then after five years of hall of fame domination, he falls back to the pack.

among non-generational players, even lindros took a few years to hit that level. hell, even among generational players, even howe wasn't howe right away. but ovie was there from day one. who else could you say that about? other than orr, gretzky, and mario i can't think of another one off the top of my head. and like orr, gretzky, and mario you'd expect that if he can tear up the league before he turns 21, that he should be able to maintain that level for at least a decade, barring catastrophic orr-like injury.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:16 PM
  #8
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,226
vCash: 500
Guy Lafleur

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Quick falls from grace happen a lot, but there's usually a reason: too much partying (Busher Jackson), car crash (Guy Lafleur), injuries (Paul Kariya). Ovechkin is unusual in that there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for his fall.
Guy Lafleur - 1980 playoff knee injury, knee on knee with Pat Boutette.

Ovechkin is simply not in shape the last four seasons.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:37 PM
  #9
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,408
vCash: 500
I've been watching casually with Ovechkin. He's always struck me as some who loves to "play the game"-but to play it the way he wants to (full out). I wonder between the MASSIVE contract he got, and with his coaches wanting him to be more defensively responsible and carefully-when I've watched him (admittedly casually), he seems like someone who isn't having "fun" anymore.

He's a 'professional' hockey player now, and all that should entail, including responsiblities and playing a system for the teams success-and I just wonder if he's the type of player who really has to be having "fun" in order to be successful-but the contract, expectations, demands for commitment to defensive play and systems-wonder if he just doesn't have the passion now.

Totally speculation on my part of course.

Tinalera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:46 PM
  #10
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Rostov-on-Don
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 10,431
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I've been watching casually with Ovechkin. He's always struck me as some who loves to "play the game"-but to play it the way he wants to (full out). I wonder between the MASSIVE contract he got, and with his coaches wanting him to be more defensively responsible and carefully-when I've watched him (admittedly casually), he seems like someone who isn't having "fun" anymore.

He's a 'professional' hockey player now, and all that should entail, including responsiblities and playing a system for the teams success-and I just wonder if he's the type of player who really has to be having "fun" in order to be successful-but the contract, expectations, demands for commitment to defensive play and systems-wonder if he just doesn't have the passion now.

Totally speculation on my part of course.
I agree, but it's strange because Ovechkin was playing with passion and having fun with Dynamo during the lock-out.....and Dynamo plays an extremely structured "team first" game.

Zine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #11
LeBlondeDemon10
BlindLemon Haystacks
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,256
vCash: 500
I thinking of this too as I was watching the Jets and Caps and they showed Selanne beating Bossy's rookie record as today is the 20 year anniversary. Selanne never approached 76 goals again and neither did Mogilny so its not unprecedented. Sometimes busting out in record fashion can haunt you for the rest of your career. Selanne never seemed haunted though as he was still an elite threat once he regained his health. Mogilny seemed haunted for awhile with inconsistent seasons, but he finished his career strong by showing how great of a playmaker he could be. Ovechkin seems to be carrying a lot of expectations on his shoulders, probably because he is so often compared to Crosby and Malkin. Selanne and Mogilny never had that issue because they were never compared to WG and ML. The key for Ovechkin now is to show leadership by working hard and just be a consistent player even if it just means 35g and 40-50 assists per year. The critics will quieten down if he just shows the effort.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 05:57 PM
  #12
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,408
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I agree, but it's strange because Ovechkin was playing with passion and having fun with Dynamo during the lock-out.....and Dynamo plays an extremely structured "team first" game.
That raises a good point I didn't know about. Perhaps he didn't feel the pressure of playing at home in a situation where he wasn't expected to be there to get Dynamo a championship, maybe it was a big vacation for him. But if they play a structured game, then this becomes less of a factor. It just seems that when things in Washington started to get "serious" (IE expectations year after year of playoffs/pursuit of Stanley Cup)-maybe his whole mental attitude-playing defensive or wide open-is "I just want to have fun and not worry about the results"

Again, I'm just thinking aloud here and speculating what I see

Tinalera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 06:10 PM
  #13
SnowblindNYR
Registered User
 
SnowblindNYR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 24,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Ovechkin is 27. At the same age, Paul Kariya just about had his best days behind him too, same with Dany Heatley. Lecavalier is another one who dropped off after 27-28.
Kariya and Heatley never really approached this level. Though, I guess it's hard to find a perfect math to this situation.

SnowblindNYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 06:45 PM
  #14
RussCourtnall6
Registered User
 
RussCourtnall6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 16
vCash: 500
Ovechkin's first 5 seasons will rival anyone as the best in league history. Despite his tailspin over the last few years, he is still a top 5 LW to ever play this game. His problem is he is stuck on a deadend franchise that is going nowhere. He knows it, which would explain his lackluster play. If Ovechkin is to rejuvenate his career, it will have to be with another franchise in a bigger market.

RussCourtnall6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 06:48 PM
  #15
RussCourtnall6
Registered User
 
RussCourtnall6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 16
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Kariya and Heatley never really approached this level. Though, I guess it's hard to find a perfect math to this situation.
Not many players could reach the same level as Ovechkin.

Kariya was pretty close. For a few years, he was easilly the best LW in the game and right at the top of the league scoring. The concussion in '98 ruined his career. Still pretty amazing that he averaged a point a game for his career, considering the significant drop on his play post-1998. Still one of the most underrated players in league history.

RussCourtnall6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 10:01 PM
  #16
Nalens Oga
HeavenOrLasVegas
 
Nalens Oga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,324
vCash: 2405
Lecavelier's a bit overrated because he had a 108 and 92 pt season. Henever had another season at 40 goals or above 80 pts before or after that. He got done in by injuries as well.

Kariya never really fell off. He was still playing like a star in the season or two after the lockout ended but he was just playing broken up due to injury and his peak wasn't as high as Ovy's I'd say so he didn't fall of as much either.

John Leclair was a huge goal scorer, 50 goals between 95-98 and he might have gotten 50 in 94/95 if not for the lockout. He had a couple 40/43 goal seasons after that and then fell off very dramatically so he's the biggest one I can think of lately who went from a 40+ goal guy (5 or pro-rated 6 seasons in a row) to a huge fall off and even his problem was injury in the 2000 season.

So yeah Ovechkin's a mystery. I wouldn't write him off as being an elite player until at least one more coaching change to see if he turns it around but I none of us will really know what happened.

Nalens Oga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 12:26 AM
  #17
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 41,591
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Kariya and Heatley never really approached this level. Though, I guess it's hard to find a perfect math to this situation.
Dany Heatley was a 2 time 50 goal scorer with a Calder Trophy and one of the brightest young stars in the game...

Though often injured, Paul Kariya was a big time 90s star.

Sergei Fedorov was a Hart Tropjy winner at 25 and didn't score more than 100 points again after 27.

There's nothing unique about a star player going into decline, especially someone so athletic and not cerebral like Ovechkin.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 12:48 AM
  #18
CanadianSharks
Registered User
 
CanadianSharks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
it's also anomalous because he was one of the five best players in the game from the moment he began his pro career. then after five years of hall of fame domination, he falls back to the pack.

among non-generational players, even lindros took a few years to hit that level. hell, even among generational players, even howe wasn't howe right away. but ovie was there from day one. who else could you say that about? other than orr, gretzky, and mario i can't think of another one off the top of my head. and like orr, gretzky, and mario you'd expect that if he can tear up the league before he turns 21, that he should be able to maintain that level for at least a decade, barring catastrophic orr-like injury.
Selanne is another who hit the league running, but it's still quite the feat to do so in such a fashion, if only Ovy could've kept it going.

CanadianSharks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 12:56 AM
  #19
Jules Winnfield
Registered User
 
Jules Winnfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,247
vCash: 500
Lindros but we know the concussions took a toll on him.

Ovechkin is a tough nut to crack. I really think a lot of his issues started when Leonsis and McPhee forced Boudreau to clip the balls off of the guys like Ovy and Green and force them into something they aren't.

Leonsis coddled Ovechkin and the "rock star" lifestyle with the young guns in their pre-game videos, etc. Then because of Halak being a stone wall that one year, he and Mcphee get pissed off and forces the team to change their identity despite having players who aren't made to play like that.

This is more on Leonsis and Mcphee IMO. If I were Ovy, I wouldn't be as happy as I once was either.

Jules Winnfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 01:27 AM
  #20
ot92s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
teemu is a great comparison.

ot92s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 01:57 AM
  #21
agentblack
Registered User
 
agentblack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 9,365
vCash: 50
I think its a bunch of different reasons. Biggest one to me is his supporting cast isnt nearly as good as it was in 09 or 10.

agentblack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 02:10 AM
  #22
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 28,339
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ot92s View Post
teemu is a great comparison.
No, he is a terrible comparison.

Selanne had career threathning injuries which needed a full year to recover from.

Ovechkin, well frankly, i have no idea what is up with him.

Plural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 02:12 AM
  #23
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 28,339
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by agentblack View Post
I think its a bunch of different reasons. Biggest one to me is his supporting cast isnt nearly as good as it was in 09 or 10.
Did you look at the team when he first came to Washington? Not really loaded with talent either.

Plural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 02:36 AM
  #24
Eisen
Registered User
 
Eisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene
Country: United States
Posts: 11,207
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Lindros but we know the concussions took a toll on him.

Ovechkin is a tough nut to crack. I really think a lot of his issues started when Leonsis and McPhee forced Boudreau to clip the balls off of the guys like Ovy and Green and force them into something they aren't.

Leonsis coddled Ovechkin and the "rock star" lifestyle with the young guns in their pre-game videos, etc. Then because of Halak being a stone wall that one year, he and Mcphee get pissed off and forces the team to change their identity despite having players who aren't made to play like that.

This is more on Leonsis and Mcphee IMO. If I were Ovy, I wouldn't be as happy as I once was either.
Agreed with that. Coincides with the suspensions he got.

Eisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 02:43 AM
  #25
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,126
vCash: 500
The best comparision IMO is Guy Lafleur. He didn't exactly rock the league from his rookie season, but outside of his 6 seasons peak ... well you know. It's not like Lafleur became a role player, neither Ovechkin did (last season 38 goals), still their fall was huge.

As for the reasons.. I think Ovechkin is suited to be complimentary player IMO now, 1st line plug, not go-to-guy and captain. He arguably doesnt withstand the pressure. He need change of scenery..now! Mike Milbury hit the nail with his critism.

Now he is basically Peter Bondra v2.0 and Bondra never was a player who can carry the team alone.

begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:23 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.