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Avs Match O'Reilly Offer Sheet Part II [2 yrs 10 m, 5m AAV]

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Old
03-03-2013, 11:27 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I don't know if this Garroich article's been posted yet.

I'd read that Sather had stepped away from the ROR trade talks because the price was too high. I'd thought the'd meant ROR's salary demands.


http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/03/01/...-spectacularly
Had the Flames not made the offer, O'Reilly would have been dealt to the East. The Vancouver Canucks, Detroit Red Wings and Calgary all tried to make deals, but Sherman was trying to send him to either the New York Rangers, Toronto Maple Leafs or Tampa Bay Lightning.

The asking price in a trade was rich. League executives say the Avs wanted a player, prospect and No. 1 pick from any team. In the case of the Rangers, sources say the ask was D Michael Del Zotto, LW Chris Kreider and a pick.

"That is nuts," said the insider.
I think they were probably pretty close on a deal too. O'Reilly's Newport reps flew into New York, and were meeting with Sather either the day before or the day of the trade.

That asking price is way too much, but that's where they started off. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't take that deal without the pick, and add something to the Avs side like a defenseman, around the trade deadline.

It's kind of funny these things get out about asking price, and it being way too much in every deal Sather's rumored to be in. I"m pretty sure he leaks this crap out, and gets people to say the other side is asking for too much to put pressure on them. It's kind of a Brian Burke move.

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03-03-2013, 12:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RockLobster
I understand the "disgruntledness" (not a word I know) of everyone in here.

But let's rewind to what quite a few people here were saying, not only here, but also on the Trade Forum.

We were putting on a "brave face" for the other teams' fans because we all said that if ROR signed an OS, we'd be happy, because that would give the Avs an "out" if you will, and say, "We didn't offer this contract, ______ did, we just matched it".

Well, let's look at some things that we KNOW of, in perspective:

A) We were told that ROR wouldn't sign an OS, and according to TPS that came straight from the horse's mouth.

B) Apparently there were at least 4 other teams that sent ROR an offer sheet, those of which he didn't sign

C) The contract that ROR signed is NO ONE's fault but Jay Feaster and The Calgary Flames Organization in my opinion.

Why do I believe that? Because he structured it in such a way that he believed that it would be a "poison pill" for the Avs to match it. We as fans are saying that ROR "isn't worth a 5m AAV" but we are also the SAME fans who when we see terrible Stastny trade proposals, one of the first responses we have is something along the lines of "The market will dictate Stastny's worth..."

Well, there were at least 5 teams who offered SOMETHING more than what the Avs offered him (one can assume) and we know at least one team who offered ROR the AAV of 5m. It seems like the market dictated Ryan's worth, and honestly, anyone in the same situation would take the money, I know I would. I'm not going to turn down a contract like that, and I don't expect Ryan or ANY other athlete in any other sport to leave money on the table...especially when the other side offers it.

I don't see anything wrong with Ryan O'Reilly admitting to the fact that in Professional Sports, ANYTHING can happen, so knowing the risk that all athletes in every sport take, I understand that in an athlete's already shortened career, they do need to get the most they can for themselves.

Joe Sakic knew it, he never left any money on the table at all, Peter Forsberg, Adam Foote, etc. they all knew. Otherwise if it WEREN'T about the money, we wouldn't have lost the players we lost at the end of the previous lockout (not comparing UFA vs RFA status of Forsberg/Foote vs ROR, just that ALL athletes look out for themselves).

Because in reality ROR is right, if he were to suffer a career ending injury tomorrow, right or wrong the Avalanche will move on from him, lest we all forget about Steve Moore.

I'm happy he's back, he will make our team better. He's 22 years old and I don't believe that he's even scratched the surface of what he's capable of in the NHL.
This is one of the bigger problems I have with this offer sheet process. In the sense that the market set his price, he essentially became a UFA, where teams drove up each others asking price, and he eventually got overpaid with a stupid contract.

He was a 21 year old RFA when this started, why are other teams allowed to be in a mini bidding war and drive up the price of a young player like that on another team? It's crazy to me.

So now as a result there's a two way player like O'Reilly in the NHL that just came off his ELC, and will be a 22 year old making $6.5M next year, and then will be negotiating off that number as a 23 year old. This is the new benchmark for all 21 year old RFA's now, especially on the Avs thanks to Feaster.

We just had a lengthy lockout because GM's can't stop handing out stupid shortsighted and selfish contracts trying to outbid each other, and another idiot does the same damn thing just a couple months later!!! It's unbelievable.

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03-03-2013, 12:12 PM
  #28
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The NHL keeps getting into trouble with the offer sheet process. They keep underestimating the desperation of teams.

I always thought they should go back to the old process where if you signed away a player, an arbitrator awarded the other team an actual roster player in return--not picks. It happened when the Blues had to give up Scott Stevens (whom they had previously given up 3 1st rounders when they had signed him away) when they snagged Shanahan. But even then you're not shutting it down completely. The possibility is still there, no matter how much you may discourage it.

The lesson to be learned from all this? Just get a deal done, or trade the guy instead of letting it drag out. And don't rely on unwritten rules.

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03-03-2013, 12:14 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
This is one of the bigger problems I have with this offer sheet process. In the sense that the market set his price, he essentially became a UFA, where teams drove up each others asking price, and he eventually got overpaid with a stupid contract.

He was a 21 year old RFA when this started, why are other teams allowed to be in a mini bidding war and drive up the price of a young player like that on another team? It's crazy to me.

So now as a result there's a two way player like O'Reilly in the NHL that just came off his ELC, and will be a 22 year old making $6.5M next year, and then will be negotiating off that number as a 23 year old. This is the new benchmark for all 21 year old RFA's now, especially on the Avs thanks to Feaster.

We just had a lengthy lockout because GM's can't stop handing out stupid shortsighted and selfish contracts trying to outbid each other, and another idiot does the same damn thing just a couple months later!!! It's unbelievable.
I hear where you're coming from, my post was just to point out that NO ONE would have turned down that Offer Sheet.

Ryan had been holding true to his word to TPS, saying that signing an offer sheet was "Not an option". And then Feaster came along with one that was something that couldn't be turned down. There's not one of us that would have turned it down, and yes, I think Feaster knew that Ryan would sign it just based on that 2nd year alone.

And yes, he does deserve to be publically lambasted, like has been done so far by the media, for what he has done, especially like you said, coming off of a Lockout that was largely about money.

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03-03-2013, 12:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
This is one of the bigger problems I have with this offer sheet process. In the sense that the market set his price, he essentially became a UFA, where teams drove up each others asking price, and he eventually got overpaid with a stupid contract.

He was a 21 year old RFA when this started, why are other teams allowed to be in a mini bidding war and drive up the price of a young player like that on another team? It's crazy to me.

So now as a result there's a two way player like O'Reilly in the NHL that just came off his ELC, and will be a 22 year old making $6.5M next year, and then will be negotiating off that number as a 23 year old. This is the new benchmark for all 21 year old RFA's now, especially on the Avs thanks to Feaster.

We just had a lengthy lockout because GM's can't stop handing out stupid shortsighted and selfish contracts trying to outbid each other, and another idiot does the same damn thing just a couple months later!!! It's unbelievable.
Yeah, this is the point that has really driving me up a wall. Teams shouldn't be able to get away with bidding for a RFA to begin with. I just shouldn't be allowed. It really screws the Avs.

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03-03-2013, 12:26 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
The NHL keeps getting into trouble with the offer sheet process. They keep underestimating the desperation of teams.

I always thought they should go back to the old process where if you signed away a player, an arbitrator awarded the other team an actual roster player in return--not picks. It happened when the Blues had to give up Scott Stevens (whom they had previously given up 3 1st rounders when they had signed him away) when they snagged Shanahan. But even then you're not shutting it down completely. The possibility is still there, no matter how much you may discourage it.

The lesson to be learned from all this? Just get a deal done, or trade the guy instead of letting it drag out. And don't rely on unwritten rules.
I do agree that Feaster giving ROR a huge offersheet, was a desperation move on Feaster's part. It sounds like he's on thin ice with his ownership.

However, I'm opposed to an arbitrator deciding value. The offersheet isn't a prefect scenerio, but it's better then an arbitrator sending quantity back for quality.

Really, has the Vanek offersheet, the Weber offersheet or the ROR offer sheet, led to rational gms thinking this is gonna work? If anything, I'd think gms would realize they need to strike a deal with the player's gm, to land the player they want.

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03-03-2013, 12:32 PM
  #32
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I don't think it has to be a big deal going forward, assuming Avs try to negotiate with O'Reilly in good faith.

Duchene was always going to make $5.5M+ if he played decently. Landeskog was always going to get a rich bridge/long term deal. O'Reilly was always going to make $5M/year after his fifth year in the league.

In the long run, 'overpaying' these players by $500k-1M/year isn't going to derail what Avs are doing.

I don't think all our players suddenly will become unreasonable because of this. I don't even think O'Reilly will, if Avs stop being so categorical in how they deal with him.

Of course Avs will probably have to pay Duchene more than O'Reilly to re-establish the pecking order, but with the way Duchene is playing, who would have a problem with this?

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03-03-2013, 12:32 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I hear where you're coming from, my post was just to point out that NO ONE would have turned down that Offer Sheet.

Ryan had been holding true to his word to TPS, saying that signing an offer sheet was "Not an option". And then Feaster came along with one that was something that couldn't be turned down. There's not one of us that would have turned it down, and yes, I think Feaster knew that Ryan would sign it just based on that 2nd year alone.

And yes, he does deserve to be publically lambasted, like has been done so far by the media, for what he has done, especially like you said, coming off of a Lockout that was largely about money.
No I understand, I was just referring to how the market place drove up his value just like UFA's. It's like a bunch of hungry wolves being thrown a piece of meat and they all fight over it.

It's just a terrible process, and all it does is screw up the other team's salary structure, drive up prices around the league, and the manager that made the offer sheet doesn't have to live with the deal they imposed on the other team, if the player turns out to be not worth it.

They are another team trying to not only set his value, but fight over his value and drive it up. They are all telling the team that's watched him the closest since he was a prospect, that they're wrong and forcing them to choose between a bad return, and the market value another team feels comfortable fitting into their salary structure.

If the NHL is so obsessed with helping small market teams, how come this kind of situation is available to be abused, where a big money team comes and swoops a small market team's player with a crazy contract, knowing full well they'll just buy him out when he proves he's not worth it.

If they're going to keep this in place for the players, they're going to have to change the return or how it works. They need to add more 1st rounders at lower salaries, let the team choose from a group of prospects or roster players, or some form of that.

In addition to that, they need to put in place a provision, that if the team matches the offer, in a year or two they have the option to take the 1st and a 3rd, and Calgary has to live with the contract they thought he was worth.

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03-03-2013, 12:37 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I don't know if this Garroich article's been posted yet.

I'd read that Sather had stepped away from the ROR trade talks because the price was too high. I'd thought the'd meant ROR's salary demands.


http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/03/01/...-spectacularly
Had the Flames not made the offer, O'Reilly would have been dealt to the East. The Vancouver Canucks, Detroit Red Wings and Calgary all tried to make deals, but Sherman was trying to send him to either the New York Rangers, Toronto Maple Leafs or Tampa Bay Lightning.

The asking price in a trade was rich. League executives say the Avs wanted a player, prospect and No. 1 pick from any team. In the case of the Rangers, sources say the ask was D Michael Del Zotto, LW Chris Kreider and a pick.

"That is nuts," said the insider.
Two division rivals and the Wings? The asking price was probably through the roof. Wonder what Gillis what trying sell Sherman on, they have no good young players to offer. "Come on Greg, it's time to reunite the Gaunce brothers. We'll even throw in Jensen or Schroeder!"

Why would the Wings want O'Reilly when they have Ferraro?

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03-03-2013, 12:54 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Two division rivals and the Wings? The asking price was probably through the roof. Wonder what Gillis what trying sell Sherman on, they have no good young players to offer. "Come on Greg, it's time to reunite the Gaunce brothers. We'll even throw in Jensen or Schroeder!"

Why would the Wings want O'Reilly when they have Ferraro?


This still makes me laugh.

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03-03-2013, 01:05 PM
  #36
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The compensation for offer sheets just needs to be more painful to teams. it should also adjust year to year with the market as player contracts grow. A 1st and a 3rd is not enough for a 5m/yr sheet. Any player a team would pay 5m/yr for would get more than a 1st and 3rd in a trade. It will be common to offer sheet players in two years, and salaries will be an issue again in 5 years.

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03-03-2013, 01:12 PM
  #37
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Increasing the compensation might lower the chances of the team matching but it'll also prevent teams from sending an offer sheet. We rarely see offer sheets as it is.

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03-03-2013, 01:26 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I don't think it has to be a big deal going forward, assuming Avs try to negotiate with O'Reilly in good faith.

Duchene was always going to make $5.5M+ if he played decently. Landeskog was always going to get a rich bridge/long term deal. O'Reilly was always going to make $5M/year after his fifth year in the league.

In the long run, 'overpaying' these players by $500k-1M/year isn't going to derail what Avs are doing.

I don't think all our players suddenly will become unreasonable because of this. I don't even think O'Reilly will, if Avs stop being so categorical in how they deal with him.

Of course Avs will probably have to pay Duchene more than O'Reilly to re-establish the pecking order, but with the way Duchene is playing, who would have a problem with this?
Exactly.

If O'Reilly proves to be difficult in negotiations again and wont come off the 6.5 million mark long term than he'll get shipped out first chance we get.

However if both the Avs and Radar come to the table like big boys and negotiate with some good will and common sense, and settle on something long term for around 5-5.5 than that will be just fine.

Like u said Dutch was always gonna get 6 plus playing the way he is now. Landy will likely bypass the bridge and sign long term. He is our captain and there is very little worry about his production falling off.

The only guy who may have gotten the short stick is EJ. He signed a 4 year deal for pretty cheap, but then again we're talking different positions and EJ doesnt have the offensive numbers that most big money dmen do.

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03-03-2013, 01:32 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Increasing the compensation might lower the chances of the team matching but it'll also prevent teams from sending an offer sheet. We rarely see offer sheets as it is.
I believe we'll start seeing more. Most "gentlemen's agreements" inevitably get broken over time.

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03-03-2013, 03:42 PM
  #40
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The compensation for offer sheets just needs to be more painful to teams. it should also adjust year to year with the market as player contracts grow. A 1st and a 3rd is not enough for a 5m/yr sheet. Any player a team would pay 5m/yr for would get more than a 1st and 3rd in a trade. It will be common to offer sheet players in two years, and salaries will be an issue again in 5 years.
This is what I think, too.

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03-04-2013, 08:19 PM
  #41
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I'm sure this has been answered plenty of times but I'm feeling so lazy today, what's the story behind O'Reilly switching his number?

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03-04-2013, 08:32 PM
  #42
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I'm sure this has been answered plenty of times but I'm feeling so lazy today, what's the story behind O'Reilly switching his number?
I would answer, but I too am feeling lazy.

He was given 37 by the Avs as a rookie and didn't like it. He wore 9 in Juniors, but Duchene obviously got that # being the higher pick. So O'Reilly wanted something with a 9 in it.


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03-04-2013, 08:33 PM
  #43
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He wants a fresh start.

Or he is 10x better than Duchene, who wears #9.

Or, he is giving us a hint of what he'll ask for in his next contract.

Or, he wanted #9 but it was taken, so he went for #90 (since they wouldn't let him have #99).

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03-04-2013, 08:38 PM
  #44
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Makes sense, thanks. Personally, I thought 37 suited him.

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03-04-2013, 09:19 PM
  #45
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glad we kept ROR but the Rangers package had we netted it would have been nice. WTF could Toronto have legitimately offered us though?

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03-04-2013, 09:52 PM
  #46
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glad we kept ROR but the Rangers package had we netted it would have been nice. WTF could Toronto have legitimately offered us though?
Wayne Gretzky + Bobby Orr apparently.

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03-04-2013, 09:59 PM
  #47
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Makes sense, thanks. Personally, I thought 37 suited him.
I think everyone pretty much except for him though the same thing, but whatever, it's his number he can change it if he wants to.

It's going to take some getting use to though, more than most number changes. That's a weird hockey number. I think the last time somebody wore it was 25 years ago.

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03-04-2013, 10:04 PM
  #48
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I think O'Reilly wanted something with #9 in it, but Duchene took #9 and I guess O'Reilly didn't want a flashy number like #90 as an 18 year old so he kept his training camp number.

After last season, he figured he had earned a flashy number and wanted #90.

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03-04-2013, 10:22 PM
  #49
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Good old Greg Sherman, and his re-active procrastination. Knew it would hurt him in the end. He looked like he was holding back tears

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03-04-2013, 11:00 PM
  #50
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#90 looks weird but him getting rid of #37 is probably a good thing. That could be a sign that he's staying here long term. I'm glad he didn't change to #18.

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