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Is Horcoff more important than most of us think?

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Old
03-03-2013, 01:16 PM
  #26
Declassified
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
General consensus IMHO is that Horcoff is a decent player, but should come about 2-3 million cheaper.
His level of play is around where John Madden was in his final years, but he was paid around $1-2million.
well, you take that out on Kevin Lowe not Shawn Horcoff.

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03-03-2013, 01:18 PM
  #27
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Horcoff is more important to the management team and the owner than he ever will be to the fans or the players.

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03-03-2013, 01:23 PM
  #28
Jimmi McJenkins
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Nope

If anything, the absence has shown how little he impacts the game for this team, and just how important it is to buy him out in the summer.

Don't even care about his contract, it's all about the fact that Horcoff is no longer an effective NHL player. The Oilers don't need passengers in critical roles no matter what the contract is, and when you can replace your 3rd line center with AHL tweeners and not notice the difference, the team has a major problem.

He's done, has been for a couple of years now.
If he's done, what's Ryan Smyth a ghost?

Horcoff in the right role at the right price brings something to the table. You're LYING to yourself and others if you think there's no drop off to VV, but you still buy him out in the summer, the price is far too high

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03-03-2013, 01:28 PM
  #29
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Not really and the fact that we're lamenting his absence just displays just how far this organization has to go.

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03-03-2013, 01:31 PM
  #30
Jimmi McJenkins
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Not really and the fact that we're lamenting his absence just displays just how far this organization has to go.
True, I often see how rarely other team lament the loss of their NHL roster players, no big deal when people are hurt and miss action, right? That's what we're talking about now.

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03-03-2013, 01:36 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
If he's done, what's Ryan Smyth a ghost?
Smyth had a better season last year than Horcoff has had in a number of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Yes he is a good #3 center. I shake my head everytime I hear people say we should buy his contract out (we have no cap issues) and go to FA (which we havent had much luck) to find a cheaper #3 center (that will develop the same chemistry with team mates and are better than Horcoff)

doesnt seem logical. Youth is important but we need vets
You absolutely need vets. But you need good vets. Horcoff hasn't been a positive contributer for quite awhile now. And no... playing tough minutes and getting absolutely shredded doing so is not contributing. Horcoff making 1.5 million or 5.5 million is irrelevant to me. The Oilers need an upgrade.

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03-03-2013, 01:39 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Smyth had a better season last year than Horcoff has had in a number of years.
In the first 2 and 1/2 months, and then did NOTHING for the rest of the season.

Again I say it, if Shawn Horcoff is "done" as an NHL player, what does that make Ryan Smyth who's further gone then that by no small margin.

Last season, when this team's Talent wasn't Propping him up, Smyth was UTTERLY USELESS.

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03-03-2013, 01:42 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declassified View Post
well, you take that out on Kevin Lowe not Shawn Horcoff.
u mean tambo

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03-03-2013, 01:48 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
In the first 2 and 1/2 months, and then did NOTHING for the rest of the season.

Again I say it, if Shawn Horcoff is "done" as an NHL player, what does that make Ryan Smyth who's further gone then that by no small margin.

Last season, when this team's Talent wasn't Propping him up, Smyth was UTTERLY USELESS.
Oct-Dec last year Horcoff had 21 points. Rest of the season he had 13 and was -14.
Oct-Dec Smyth had 30 points. Rest of the season he had 16 points and was -5.

There was not a single month where Horcoff had a better +/- or point production that Smyth last year. October through April. Not one.

If Smyth is UTTERLTY USELESS. Horcoff is worse. At least Smyth didn't get eaten alive at ES like Horcoff perpetually does.

It goes beyond Horcoff's cap hit. He just isn't a good hockey player. He is a good PKer. That's about it.


Last edited by Spawn: 03-03-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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03-03-2013, 02:48 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
If he's done, what's Ryan Smyth a ghost?

Horcoff in the right role at the right price brings something to the table. You're LYING to yourself and others if you think there's no drop off to VV, but you still buy him out in the summer, the price is far too high
They're both bad as Spawn pointed out, nor does one over the hill player excuse the other. Should also be noted that his actual replacement is Belanger, who brings everything Horcoff does with superior faceoff ability, at a fraction of the price. Personally, I'm of the mindset that both Smyth and Horcoff to be bought out and replaced with younger, more effective players - something that should be possible considering that subtracting those two players frees up 7.75 million a year for potential replacements.

But this isn't a Smyth vs Horcoff thread. Important to the team? no. He's soft when the team needs physicality and grit, average at best in the faceoff circle when the team needs good faceoff men, a pylon defensively when the team needs sound defensive forwards, and his "tough minute" ability is limited to getting killed on the ice by opponents because he can't keep up with good competition.

The Oilers aren't going to get anywhere anytime soon unless they start replacing some of the deadweight on the team with players who can provide a positive impact every night going forward. Horcoff/Smyth are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

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03-03-2013, 03:00 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post

Problem is that Shawn Horcoff is actually quite poor in the role. He has been eaten alive the past few seasons against other teams top players. I've said this before, but anyone can go out there against a teams top players and perform poorly. That is what Shawn Horcoff has done.
Bingo. You can find someone cheaper to "take on the toughs" and get obliterated.

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03-03-2013, 03:15 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post


You absolutely need vets. But you need good vets. Horcoff hasn't been a positive contributer for quite awhile now. And no... playing tough minutes and getting absolutely shredded doing so is not contributing. Horcoff making 1.5 million or 5.5 million is irrelevant to me. The Oilers need an upgrade.
I would be totally ok with upgrading our 3c

That problem I have is that people assume there is an upgrade in FA and we will easily get him.

Most people just say "Horcoff is overpaid, buy him out, easy peasy" In which the contract is the problem is his contract not his play. Both are problems but Horcoff does play the ugliest minutes. Just because he doesnt put up 45 pts doesnt mean hes not important. He becomes a problem when his faceoff % dips and his defensive game and ability to lead come into question. Then he is expendable.

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03-03-2013, 04:12 PM
  #38
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For as much as we rag on him, he is missed. It's not that he's absolutely terrible, it's that he is stupidly overpaid. He is still useful as a 3rd or 4th line center.

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03-03-2013, 04:19 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
He might score 5 goals this year, forcing poor old Lowetide to move the goalposts yet again ...

This team will be a lot better off when we replace Horcoff with an actual $5.5 million dollar center who is durable and produces results at both ends of the ice.

The sooner this happens, the better.
They had a guy like that and they traded him to Minny for peanuts. Granted, he's having a lousy season this year.

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03-03-2013, 04:22 PM
  #40
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Would Horcoff play so poorly on the Redwings? Penguins? Bruins?

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03-03-2013, 04:25 PM
  #41
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I truly miss the whiffs and watching opposition fill the net when he is on the ice.

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03-03-2013, 04:41 PM
  #42
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Horcoff was never a bad player, if he had a 2.5 million dollar cap hit, I doubt anyone on here would be complaining about him. That being said, he is paid double what he should be getting and should be bought out either this or next offseason, no question about it.

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03-03-2013, 04:46 PM
  #43
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Unlike what most believe around here, Horcoff is a good vet.

Hes had some problems staying healthy in the last couple years but if he can get healthy he would be a huge additional to this team.

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03-03-2013, 05:20 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Yes he is a good #3 center. I shake my head everytime I hear people say we should buy his contract out (we have no cap issues) and go to FA (which we havent had much luck) to find a cheaper #3 center (that will develop the same chemistry with team mates and are better than Horcoff)

doesnt seem logical. Youth is important but we need vets
How do we know this? He has virually never been a #3 center in his whole career other than a few games. People delusionally look at his yearly stats of 11 goals and 23 assists and think. "Hey, that's pretty good for a 3rd liner!"

Except he has gotton more ice time than any other forward almost every year, always got a gob of pp time, pk time and almost always played with good players. And while his linemates take it in neck each year Horcoff 'does the heavy lfiting' all by himself.

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03-03-2013, 05:28 PM
  #45
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Multiple NHL coaches have thought he is better than any of us give him credit for.

So yes, he is better than the average HF poster thinks.

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03-03-2013, 06:25 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
How do we know this? He has virually never been a #3 center in his whole career other than a few games. People delusionally look at his yearly stats of 11 goals and 23 assists and think. "Hey, that's pretty good for a 3rd liner!"

Except he has gotton more ice time than any other forward almost every year, always got a gob of pp time, pk time and almost always played with good players. And while his linemates take it in neck each year Horcoff 'does the heavy lfiting' all by himself.
Just the way he plays, hes reliable defensively and gets some pretty ****** defensive zone starts against opposing top lines. This has allowed RNH and Gagner to play softer minutes.

Around the league he would be an average 3rd line center.

Sure need him back in this line up.

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03-03-2013, 07:01 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Teflon Shawn lives a charmed life. He has uplifted us the last 5 or 6 years from being so bad we are out of the league to just missing the playoffs or being last in the league.

- He can't score 5-5 at all.
- His fo% the last 3 years was below 50%
- His 'heavy lifting' has conisted of having probably the worst cumulative plus minus in the league the previosu 3 years.
- He never scores important goals.
- Unlike a 20 year old guy in Taylor Hall (who is true capt material) he never is accountable for his own play and always talks about the youth on the team when things are going bad.

He'll come back and the team will win 3 out of 10 rather than 2 out of 10 and he will be extolled as the great difference maker.

Yes we miss Horcules badly.
Amen

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03-03-2013, 07:04 PM
  #48
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And no he is not an average 3rd liner. He is slow, weak, has cement hands, is good at killing penalties and any sense of momentum.

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03-03-2013, 07:25 PM
  #49
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Horcoff is a support player and nothing more, this is it for him here, we need him in that role and yes he needs to do heavy lifting because he is exactly that type of player, he was a shutdown shadow type of guy coming into the NHL and he adjusted his game to give us offense he really didnt have in him. He did an admirable job for us back then, but today he is what he is and that is an excellent veteran shutdown guy, Horcs is coming full circle in his career, of course he is a shutdown defensive guy and we need him.

But he has no critical bearing on how this team does in the long term, if he didnt return it wouldnt change the vegas line on us winning the cup.

We only have room for one veteran forward and one d-man for experience and leadership the rest need to perform and produce, and Smyth and Schultz are our veterans in those departments, the rest of the vets need to produce every game consistantly on par with the kids at the very least. Horcoff doesnt need to score goals now so he better focus on setting his linemates up, Horcs can only score if he is the line focus, so those days are over now, he needs to use his experience to create space and opportunity for others in every game and provide perfect defensive awareness and coverage, he CANNOT take any risks at all defensively because that is his role now after so many years of having wiggle room to take those types of risks, Horcs was on a path to be an elite shutdown guy, on another team he would never have been asked to provide so much offense, this waylayed his career, the contract was the payoff for that sacrifice and both he and the Oilers know this.

I like Horcoff, and I would like him better if he would give the C to Samwise and settle this team down, but somehow I dont think he gets any say in who gets letters on this team, we are ruled by some freak power monger, and its really getting on everyones nerves.


I believe we have a Stanley Cup roster here right now and horcs is part of that. For as long as we fail to recognise our system is flawed we will continue to spin our wheels and be inconsistant and this will lead to self-mutilation out of frustration, and because changing the system means hunting big game in the front office we will see no changes, who could or would take on the job of trimming fat in the Oilers organisation? No one would waste their time trying because of how this organisation is structured. We didnt keep the right Dynasty Oiler at the wheel, and that should have been clear from the get go many years ago, there is no way anyone would have predicted Lowe would be in his position today, no way possible, he did not project that at all. I am not saying he isnt qualified I am saying that out of all the men on the Dynasty team he is one of the least likely candidates. And for gods sakes he sure wasnt retained to help us work on offense, now was he? Kevin Lowe was a one dimensional player and he has carried that over to the rest of hios career, he CANNOT build a Dynsty dynamic here because he was only a peripheral component of that |Dynsty when he played, he NEVER had the core data, he just won all the small battles that it took to get the job he has today, that shows he is a hard worker, stubborn, a defensive specialist that eliminates competition any way he can with no rules, and a professional with enough smarts to get the job done, but hi IS NOT and NEVER WAS a fair representaton of that Dynasty team on any level other than nasty stay at home defensman level.

K Lowe has delivered on his side of the bargain, this team has his personality stamped all over it and the results we get are in line with a nasty stay at home defensmans perspective. Get that?? He has done his job, we just asked for the wrong things. Now he will bolt for Montreal if he is smart before the other shoe falls here. He is living proof that the hockey people are full of crap, he proves that good defense doesnt create good offense, ha ha ha, all it can ever produce is good defense. All Kevin produced here was a stay at home set of results and thats exactly where our team has been come playoff time since he has had his hands on the wheel. Yes he is tough as nails, and yes hes smart and yes hes dirty as spit, but so what? That is not only why we were winners during his playing days, he was merely a plug and play cog of that wheel, he was willing to get his hands very dirty to win and we needed that mindset, we danced with the devil when we hired him on after his playing days, he is one underhanded bugger who gets the job done no matter what it takes, a warrior no doubt. He has done as would be expected given his playing style, he has stayed the course and been consistant, he would be horrible to play against, nasty comes to mind, dirty type of nasty, you would need to take him out early and with intent and even that would be nearly impossible because of his survival instincts. If he could have bottled that committment to doing the dirty dance and given it to this roster he would have had better results so far, he tried to change his approach to much because what he was best at bringing to the rink is what we are missing the most, nasty and loyal, how is that possible? He is a warrior who creates scholars and poets? Thats just not right.

Horcoff is a pacifist at heart he likes iggy and is like iggy and I get sick thinking about that stupifying mindset, that uber-relaxed minset, that i dont REALLLLY care attitude that everythings going to be ok win or lose, no urgency at all, screw the skill Iggy brings, you can teach a monkey to play the piano and an elephant to paint, scoring points in the NHL isnt as hard as everyone preaches, someone has to score regardless , come on already. But leadership isnt related to scoring all the time ,most times but players like Iggy are prime examples of when the role is in the wrong hands. Body language is more important than people think and so is image and attitude. In 5 or 6 years Taylor will get his shot at being a leader and we will see the warrior spirit here, we have it in spades already in Sam gagner but he is being blackballed obviously over money, but that aside we need to let Nuge the scholar lead us to some cups, then Hall will be ready. Samwise will be our veteran presence IF we win cups with this group.

Horcoff, and all the vets excluding Smyth and N. Schultz are on the market, it is what it is. We need to bring people in at every level during this phase of development and this means we need to rely on young guys at every position, we cant change halfway and keep vets in critical areas to long, we need the next younger Horcoff already, we need that replacement here already and prepared to step in next year. Keeping vets to long now just spreads our mistakes out over more years, lets get those green guys in there right now and let them grow together, they need to become accountable to each other as much as to the system and as long as there are vets in to many places taking the heat this group will be held back in the accountability department, they are READY right now to take the full load of pressure and to take a little say in how things run teamwise, they need to be listened to now and held accountable now 100%. We dont have any time past next year to develop, if we dont have the pieces sorted out by next year we will lose some of the core without a doubt, big changes will be made, ones we dont really want to see. I am done with horcs as captain and leader here, and i am not in the corner of whoever gave the letters to Hall and Ebbs, it was a very poorly thought out decision, neither of then are established nearly enough to back up those letters. Managment jumped to soon to facilitate contract negotiations, and they deserve what they get for doing that. The kids didnt deserve this badly planned dynamic.

Horcoff is a role player in a defensive category, so if he cant provide results doing that or if we dont need that from him then we need to move him ASAP and get a younger man in there learning. And if his layed back attitude is rubbing off in the dressing room we are double screwed because that is so un-Oilers it is scary. How does a guy with a presence and personality like Horcs end up captaining a team run by kevin Lowe? Horcs has the leadership skills and experience but he is so vanilla it is damaging to the team. A Captain that will not fight and lead with everything he has is no Captain and sorry Horcs but your time is up, thanks for the memories now step back, we need those who will bleed, and it is what it is, if you wont stand up for Oilers colors you shouldnt be here wearing them ,you havent always done that Shawn for whatever reasons ,and if you wear the C and you are a physical player like Horcs and you dont back that Oildrop up out there you need to pass the torch and the record says its past time to pass that torch. Remember Sammy dropping the gloves with a guy twice his size recently ? Sam Gagners ready, suck it up, he has earned it, no one else has stepped up as he has, in fact I am sick of the way he is treated here, so now its time to rock and roll, Horcs hasnt earned his spot in several years, managment can take a hike, this issue has caused trouble in the room for more like three years, Smyth accepts his role and Horcs just smiles and cruises along, is he Kevin Lowes illegitimate son or what the heck. I wouldnt have stayed here as an athlete this place is screwed up pretty badly, and its nearly impossible to see it till you are buryied chest deep in the poop. its like Hanzel and Gretel, Players are luerd here to the Candy House , and before they know it some old hag has sweet-talked them into the roaster and is sliding them into the oven to cook them.

When I saw Gilberts attitude and listened to him talking I realised just how bad it has gotten here, we are in an abusive relationship as fans with this managment group and we have developed Stockholm Syndrome, it is very very sad, we turn to our abusers for help, it just sickening. The managment group is trying to validate 15 years of system failure on the backs of a bunch of kids, a system they already spent most of these kids young lives proving via a lack of NHL results is a failure, that is just a travesty, and at this point Katz is also responsible for some of this, what is he blind? Does he not really care? Is the team just a tax write-off for him? No folks we dont need Horcs anymore, in fact maybe he needs to go just to cleanse the room, like some of our upper managment and the system also need to go to cleanse the organisation, and NO they cant go piecemeal, they all need to go at once or the cancer remains.

We are a proper system and one dominant NHL faceoff man away from a Stanley Cup run, Horcoff is in the spot we need to put the faceoff man in in all likelyhood, and to top it off we need a dominating FO man now to make up for the kids learning curves, we cant expect them to carry that load alone that is one of the areas we need a specialist in. We cant afford Horcs in a 3rd line role when we need a faceoff man so badly, in fact we need to lock one up for at least 4 years here and fast. And one last note to Horcs, no one deserves to be here if they wont fight for the team, you know that very well, so well played but now get the hell going. I dont see an oppotunity for redemption, I wouldnt tolerate teammates who dont have my back and never a Captain who isnt willing to lay it ALL out on the line for the team. You were never Nuge or Hall or Ebbs or Gagner, Horcs you know it, somewhere along the line you lost track of your own evolution and let other people tell you who and what you were. Do us all a favor and start to define your legacy here before you leave, throw down the mitts, and show everyone what you are made of----oooops sorry I forgot about the knuckle--- yet another timely excuse, we are out of time so you better use your stick and start slicing and dicing opponents while you still can then and make some memories of being an Oilers Warrior because it doesnt look so good right now.
No, but I have to ask... Did frodo die at the end of this story?

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03-03-2013, 07:27 PM
  #50
Tad McMikowsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
How do we know this? He has virually never been a #3 center in his whole career other than a few games. People delusionally look at his yearly stats of 11 goals and 23 assists and think. "Hey, that's pretty good for a 3rd liner!"

Except he has gotton more ice time than any other forward almost every year, always got a gob of pp time, pk time and almost always played with good players. And while his linemates take it in neck each year Horcoff 'does the heavy lfiting' all by himself.
Your opinion is heavily biased against Horcoff....

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