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35 Goal Scorer that is Defensively Reliable Or...

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Old
03-05-2013, 02:02 PM
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774EVER
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35 Goal Scorer that is Defensively Reliable Or...

I was watching part of the TB/PIT game last night and something the commentators said made me think. They basically compared Crosby vs Stamkos. In terms of offensive skill, it is basically a wash. Sure Stamkos scores more goals but, in terms of point production they are relatively close.

Why Crosby is placed at a higher standard however, is because of his all-around play. They were basically praising him for being a sound defensive player and this is what separates him from Stamkos.

Looking at the stats, Crosby has always been a plus player except for his rookie year. Although Stamkos hasn't been horrible (Currently a plus 1) the edge goes to Crosby. Yes I know that this stat doesn't mean all that much, but like I said it got me thinking.

So who would you rather have on your team? A 35 goal player who is a defensive rock in his own zone? or a 50 goal scorer that has his defensive liabilities.

Think Bergeron pre-concussion who I believe could have reached this level vs 2nd year Stamkos (minus 2)?



Would you be happy if Seguin tops out at 35 goals, but becomes a stellar all-around (defensive) player.

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03-05-2013, 02:05 PM
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50 goal scorer every day of the week. Not everyone on your team has to play great 2 way, defensively responsible hockey. It's okay to leverage a players skill sets to maximize their contributions on the offensive side and let someone else be defensively responsible.

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03-05-2013, 02:06 PM
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i would if he adds 40+ assists with the goals

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03-05-2013, 02:20 PM
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I'll take the 50 goal scorer, they don't come around often. I'd trade Bergeron any day of the week for Stamkos.

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03-05-2013, 02:23 PM
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If you want to win you take the 35 goal scoring defensive responsible player. If you do not care about winning you take the 50 goal guy because they provide excitement some good some bad.

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03-05-2013, 02:25 PM
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Give me an all round player. That is what Crosby is. Stamkos is a natural pure scorer while Crosby is an all round player..He makes his teammates better. I cant believe i ever thought Ovechkin was a better player than Crosby. SMH at Myself.

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03-05-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
If you want to win you take the 35 goal scoring defensive responsible player. If you do not care about winning you take the 50 goal guy because they provide excitement some good some bad.
I'm with you.

Scoring sells tickets.
D wins championships.

I'll take a consistent 35 with D.

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03-05-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afam View Post
Give me an all round player. That is what Crosby is. Stamkos is a natural pure scorer while Crosby is an all round player..He makes his teammates better. I cant believe i ever thought Ovechkin was a better player than Crosby. SMH at Myself.
I've been thinking the same thing for a year now

To me it's mostly about excitement too. Imagine if Seguin became a 50 goal guy. It's not like Stamkos is bad defensively.

I also don't think everyone on the team needs to be a defensive rock to win a championship. The Bruins have enough players that are rocks on D.

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03-05-2013, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 774EVER View Post
I was watching part of the TB/PIT game last night and something the commentators said made me think. They basically compared Crosby vs Stamkos. In terms of offensive skill, it is basically a wash. Sure Stamkos scores more goals but, in terms of point production they are relatively close.

Why Crosby is placed at a higher standard however, is because of his all-around play. They were basically praising him for being a sound defensive player and this is what separates him from Stamkos.

Looking at the stats, Crosby has always been a plus player except for his rookie year. Although Stamkos hasn't been horrible (Currently a plus 1) the edge goes to Crosby. Yes I know that this stat doesn't mean all that much, but like I said it got me thinking.

So who would you rather have on your team? A 35 goal player who is a defensive rock in his own zone? or a 50 goal scorer that has his defensive liabilities.

Think Bergeron pre-concussion who I believe could have reached this level vs 2nd year Stamkos (minus 2)?



Would you be happy if Seguin tops out at 35 goals, but becomes a stellar all-around (defensive) player.
add me to the 35 + D group

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03-05-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
I'm with you.

Scoring sells tickets.
D wins championships.

I'll take a consistent 35 with D
.
Totally agree.

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03-05-2013, 02:31 PM
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Whatever Evgeni Malkin is.

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03-05-2013, 02:31 PM
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Who says guys that score 50 goals have to be bad defensively? Malkin and Crosby have scored 50 goals each, won a championship, and aren't bad defensively. Why can't I have my cake and eat it too.

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03-05-2013, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 774EVER View Post
I was watching part of the TB/PIT game last night and something the commentators said made me think. They basically compared Crosby vs Stamkos. In terms of offensive skill, it is basically a wash. Sure Stamkos scores more goals but, in terms of point production they are relatively close.

Why Crosby is placed at a higher standard however, is because of his all-around play. They were basically praising him for being a sound defensive player and this is what separates him from Stamkos.

Looking at the stats, Crosby has always been a plus player except for his rookie year. Although Stamkos hasn't been horrible (Currently a plus 1) the edge goes to Crosby. Yes I know that this stat doesn't mean all that much, but like I said it got me thinking.

So who would you rather have on your team? A 35 goal player who is a defensive rock in his own zone? or a 50 goal scorer that has his defensive liabilities.

Think Bergeron pre-concussion who I believe could have reached this level vs 2nd year Stamkos (minus 2)?



Would you be happy if Seguin tops out at 35 goals, but becomes a stellar all-around (defensive) player.
Bergeron would have never reached that level unless he was on a terrible team and got 400 shots a season .. he is a 10% shooter. pre or post concussion.

I could see Bergeron getting 25-55 as Marchand and Seguin continue to improve and stay on his line.

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03-05-2013, 02:32 PM
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35 + D

There are only so many goals to go around. You can't win games 0-0, but you can't win every game 8-2 either. Even when you have a stacked line up like they had in 2008-09 and Savard and Kessel lit it up, they had a boat load of 20 goal scorers.

An army of 20 goal scorers is harder to stop than a top heavy line up. What happens to the Pens when Crosby/Geno go down with injuries?

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03-05-2013, 02:33 PM
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So no team's ever won a cup with a guy who is capable of scoring 50 goals?

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03-05-2013, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
Whatever Evgeni Malkin is.
Agree,

If I have the first pick in a fantasy draft, he's my guy.

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03-05-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mainehockey33 View Post
Who says guys that score 50 goals have to be bad defensively? Malkin and Crosby have scored 50 goals each, won a championship, and aren't bad defensively. Why can't I have my cake and eat it too.
Exactly. This all or nothing stuff is silly. It's nonsense to say it can't be done.

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03-05-2013, 02:36 PM
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Whatever Evgeni Malkin is.
Malkin is a spoiled brat like Crosby who plays with guys that put up 70 points easily every year

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03-05-2013, 02:37 PM
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I think people like to make excuses for why Seguin hasn't blossomed into the next Stamkos in terms of production, so the easy solution is to blame CJ and his emphasis on defensive responsibility as the road block to his growth.

Cop out.

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03-05-2013, 02:47 PM
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50 goal scorer, you have 18 guys playing for crying out loud, the first line winger is the last one who should put emphasis on defense.

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03-05-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by smithformeragent View Post
I think people like to make excuses for why Seguin hasn't blossomed into the next Stamkos in terms of production, so the easy solution is to blame CJ and his emphasis on defensive responsibility as the road block to his growth.

Cop out.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner....

If we're talking about Seguin in a few years as a guy who tops out at 30-35 goals and we have to add in the qualifier that "he plays a solid 2 way game", then that means he didn't become what he was supposed to be. Period.

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03-05-2013, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner....

If we're talking about Seguin in a few years as a guy who tops out at 30-35 goals and we have to add in the qualifier that "he plays a solid 2 way game", then that means he didn't become what he was supposed to be. Period.
People just assume that because a guy is a top whatever pick, he'll be a perennial lock for Rocket Richard contention.

They declared Boston the winner of the Kessel deal, the moment Boston got the #2 pick. Problem is, there is always the Alenandre Daigle factor. That's not to say that Seguin will be a bust to that level. He already is a good player. However, what if he turns into Patrick Marleau? Is he a bust then?

I think that if Segs was going to be a 50 goal guy, we'd have seen it by now, but who knows? It just drives me nuts when people blame Clode for not loosening the reins on him.

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03-05-2013, 02:55 PM
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All around even strength player every time.

How many players would you take a team of 5 of them over a team of 5 Bergerons? Stamkos might be one of the few, but is he really going to beat a team of Bergerons?

Their ES Pts/60 aren't that far off each other. Neither is the PP. With 15 minutes ES time/game over 82 games Stamkos has an advantage by about 8 Pts and 4 Pts on the PP. Head to head I would bet on Bergeron outscoring Stamkos.

Bergeron would start with the puck much more because he wins about 60% of faceoffs while Stamkos wins about 46%. Bergeron doesn't really take penalties and Bergeron would shut down Stamkos greatest advantage - the powerplay more often than not when he did take them.

People look at goals and Pts (and put too much emphasis on them), while ignoring the overall & situational ice time, as well as defense. Defense is at least as important as offense.

If Bergeron got the same type of ice time, and offensive zone starts as most "elite" players he would score 75+ points every year while still being a Selke finalist.

Based on Bergeron's Pt/60 rates this year; if he got 15 min. ES time and 5 min of PP time, he would score 85 Pts over an 82 game season. Last year it would have been 78 Pts. This with only about 47% Ozone starts each year. Stamkos has been at 55 and 57%. Sedins have been around 70%.

Do this type of comparison with every "elite" player and tell me how many you would take over Bergeron. He dominates elite players every game. Some of it has to do with his team but many other elite players play on good teams too. Reading these boards it sounds like there are about 20 teams better than the Bruins.

PS. Why Bergeron pre-concussion? He is a better offensive and overall player now. The difference is he got over 20 minutes a game and about 5 minutes of powerplay time per game back then.

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03-05-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by smithformeragent View Post
People just assume that because a guy is a top whatever pick, he'll be a perennial lock for Rocket Richard contention.

They declared Boston the winner of the Kessel deal, the moment Boston got the #2 pick. Problem is, there is always the Alenandre Daigle factor. That's not to say that Seguin will be a bust to that level. He already is a good player. However, what if he turns into Patrick Marleau? Is he a bust then?

I think that if Segs was going to be a 50 goal guy, we'd have seen it by now, but who knows? It just drives me nuts when people blame Clode for not loosening the reins on him.
Exactly. He may have a higher ceiling than he's shown to this point, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to be a 50 goal scorer. He's always been more of a set up guy than a sniper anyway, and that's why I really want them to shift him to center. I don't think he's a bust either, but I also thought that people were too quick to dismiss this trade as a clear cut win for Boston. It may ultimately become a landslide win for us (especially when you factor in Hamilton), but they still gave up a pretty legitimate scorer to get the picks. I don't blame CJ for hampering his scoring (since I don't think his high end is anywhere near 50), but I do think the emphasis on making everyone a defensive 2 way player is somewhat problematic. It's okay to have a guy who isn't as strong in his own end as your bottom 6 players are. The skills he may bring on the offensive side more than make up for it.

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03-05-2013, 03:06 PM
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50 goal scorer every day of the week. Not everyone on your team has to play great 2 way, defensively responsible hockey. It's okay to leverage a players skill sets to maximize their contributions on the offensive side and let someone else be defensively responsible.
Claude Julien strongly disagrees. In fact the Bruins dumping Kessel and going on to win the cup is as good a counter-argument to your point as I can think of.

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