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David Desharnais Discussion Part II: The 'Stay on your Feet' Edition

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Old
05-12-2013, 03:01 AM
  #776
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The problem with DD seems to be that he sucks at acquiring puck possession by himself. I remember matches this year where he would only touch the puck 1-2 times per period. I think the only way the guy can actually be sucessful is to play as a winger with our puck possession beast, Eller. Playing wing would also reduce his defensive responsibilities and, who knows, might force him to SHOOT.

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05-12-2013, 03:51 AM
  #777
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Ridiculous. You make good points them follow them up with ridiculous statements.

He played over 18 minutes a game in Columbus. He's not a bad player, but people would be mad at the contract/production here. He also plays wing now too.

Very good 3rd line type guy or 2nd line if your teams is built well.
Nothing ridiculous about my commentary on Umberger. He's almost the Columbus version of Gomez-not quite there yet, but give him a little more time. I'm going to guess that you haven't watched him much over the past two seasons. He's not bad defensively, but offensively he has been horrendous for the past two seasons. He used to be a great traffic creator in front of the opponent's net and very gritty in his overall game, but that's a distant memory. In 2011-12, about half of his points were in the the last quarter of the season when the Jackets were hopelessly out of things.

He's a very strong candidate for an amnesty buyout. The Jackets have shopped him hard over the past season with no takers. I can't think of a team which would improve itself by having RJU on its second line. The Jackets (foolishly) gave him tons of TOI this season in hopes of getting him out of his funk. It didn't work. It cost them a playoff spot, imo.

If the Jackets don't buy him out (and they won't be able to trade him), then his days of getting loads of ice time are over in Columbus. The Jackets have far too many up and coming players that are already better than Umberger who will comprise the top 6 in 2013-14.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 05-12-2013 at 03:59 AM.
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05-12-2013, 04:07 AM
  #778
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Cole seemed like a really chill dude. His interview when he left was heart wrenching. Seemed like he wanted to cry. He became such a fan favourite and then this season happened.

Desharnais needs to quit make excuses and just play how he can play. He's a good player and much better than he showed this year. Hopefully he finds that gear because if he does, it just improves our team that much more.
Also, I think DD played a much different game than he is now, even before he was paired with Cole. I remember when he first joined the Habs to see this little dude get in front of the net so much was amazing. He's done nothing of that all season.

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05-12-2013, 08:37 AM
  #779
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What make you think that Desharnais can't improve anymore? Martin St-Louis was not that great in his first 4 years and I am pretty sure alot of people had some doubt in his ability to play in the nhl even when he was 26. My point is that Desharnais was not that great this year, but he sure can improve and give us another 60 to 70 points season within the next 4 years.

see the stats of M. St-Louis here:

first year: 1-1-2 in 13 games -2
second year: 3-15-18 in 53 games -5
third year: 18-22-40 in 78 games -4
fourth year: 16-19-35 in 53 games +4
total: 95 points in 197 games -7

David Desharnais:
first year 0-1-1 in 6 games -1
second year: 8-14-22 in 43 games -3
third year: 16-44-60 in 81 games +10
fourth year: 10-18-28 in 48 games -2
total: 116 points in 178 games +4

Taking into account that St-Louis was not good defensively and could not bring anything else then offense to the team, I would say Desharnais is doing fine compare to St-Louis at that time. If I follow the thinking of alot of people here, Desharnais is just trash that we need to get rid of as soon as possible.

No one can tell if Desharnais won't come back next year stronger and play a perfect role as a third or second line right or left wing.
dd coulnt carry martin`s jock strap

remember st. Louis was part of an era where SIZE WAS MANDATORY

no one wanted small players 15 years ago , not with the rule changes top day that help them

there is no way he doesnt get drafted today

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05-12-2013, 08:58 AM
  #780
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Comparing DD to St-Louis is a major statistics fail, it is major cherrypicking.

It is true that DD and St-Louis had the same stats early on, however, that is the wrong comparison.

The correct comparison is that out of the hundreds of players who had stats like DD early on, only one of them became St-Louis. The vast majority of them were out of the NHL within a few years. That is the correct comparison.

Never make a comparison to an outlier based on flimsy data, limited understanding, and false analogies, as that leads to mediocre analysis.

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05-12-2013, 09:06 AM
  #781
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Comparing DD to St-Louis is a major statistics fail, it is major cherrypicking.

It is true that DD and St-Louis had the same stats early on, however, that is the wrong comparison.

The correct comparison is that out of the hundreds of players who had stats like DD early on, only one of them became St-Louis. The vast majority of them were out of the NHL within a few years. That is the correct comparison.

Never make a comparison to an outlier based on flimsy data, limited understanding, and false analogies, as that leads to mediocre analysis.
Desharnais definitely isn't on St. Louis's level - and it's even ridiculous for fans of Desharnais to compare to St. Louis because that just makes things harder to grasp.

Desharnais is a good player. He's not St. Louis but he's not a scrub either (although this year he was definitely not great). Could he surprise? Definitely, but he could falter too.

Just making it to the NHL and earning a contract is a huge accomplishment for an undrafted, undersized player. Now let's see if he is the kind of player who wants to continue to prove people wrong or if he's the kind of player who is happy where he's got.

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05-12-2013, 09:20 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by Hawkguy View Post
Desharnais definitely isn't on St. Louis's level - and it's even ridiculous for fans of Desharnais to compare to St. Louis because that just makes things harder to grasp.

Desharnais is a good player. He's not St. Louis but he's not a scrub either (although this year he was definitely not great). Could he surprise? Definitely, but he could falter too.

Just making it to the NHL and earning a contract is a huge accomplishment for an undrafted, undersized player. Now let's see if he is the kind of player who wants to continue to prove people wrong or if he's the kind of player who is happy where he's got.
I agree, but in general we should cut the BS, I think, about how DD's future is entirely in his hands and he can pick what kind of player he wants to be by "working hard", the real world doesn't work that way, most of us (actually all of us) have limited potential.

I'm very confident in my assessment of DD. He can be a shootout specialist, he can play top-2 center for 20 or 30 games if one of the real top-2 centers becomes injured, and he can play wing in an offensive role like he did in the 2011 playoffs, albeit briefly.

He is never going to be a defensive specialist. If he works hard, he *might* become defensively adequate, but we'll have to see, he might just not have it in him.

It is also true that we don't want too many sub 6' feet players in our system. We have Gionta, DD, and Gallagher on the team, with Kristo, Collberg, and Hudon potentially on the way. We will need to pare. If DD has a bounce-back season we should use the opportunity to trade him for a 2nd round draft pick.

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05-12-2013, 09:46 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I agree, but in general we should cut the BS, I think, about how DD's future is entirely in his hands and he can pick what kind of player he wants to be by "working hard", the real world doesn't work that way, most of us (actually all of us) have limited potential.

I'm very confident in my assessment of DD. He can be a shootout specialist, he can play top-2 center for 20 or 30 games if one of the real top-2 centers becomes injured, and he can play wing in an offensive role like he did in the 2011 playoffs, albeit briefly.

He is never going to be a defensive specialist. If he works hard, he *might* become defensively adequate, but we'll have to see, he might just not have it in him.

It is also true that we don't want too many sub 6' feet players in our system. We have Gionta, DD, and Gallagher on the team, with Kristo, Collberg, and Hudon potentially on the way. We will need to pare. If DD has a bounce-back season we should use the opportunity to trade him for a 2nd round draft pick.
If he has a bounce-back season, I'd hope to get a bit more than just a 2nd round pick. But I agree with your reasoning.

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05-12-2013, 09:58 AM
  #784
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I agree, but in general we should cut the BS, I think, about how DD's future is entirely in his hands and he can pick what kind of player he wants to be by "working hard", the real world doesn't work that way, most of us (actually all of us) have limited potential.

I'm very confident in my assessment of DD. He can be a shootout specialist, he can play top-2 center for 20 or 30 games if one of the real top-2 centers becomes injured, and he can play wing in an offensive role like he did in the 2011 playoffs, albeit briefly.

He is never going to be a defensive specialist. If he works hard, he *might* become defensively adequate, but we'll have to see, he might just not have it in him.

It is also true that we don't want too many sub 6' feet players in our system. We have Gionta, DD, and Gallagher on the team, with Kristo, Collberg, and Hudon potentially on the way. We will need to pare. If DD has a bounce-back season we should use the opportunity to trade him for a 2nd round draft pick.
Yes, if he has a bounce back year and scores near 60-points, lets trade him for a 2nd around pick.

Yes, people have a limited potential, but Desharnais can be better by working harder. This year, he seemed to give up on the puck a lot easier than he did before. Last year, even when he lost puck battles, he made them work. This year, he would just swipe his stick at it and it became very annoying.

As for defense, he can always improve defensively, you just need to work at it. There's a lot of NHL players who stay in the NHL because they up their defensive game.

I have no problem trading Desharnais or any player if it improves the team. We have 6 draft picks this year in the top ~90 picks, if Desharnais scores 60 points, you can get more than a 2nd round pick for him. Although with Gionta leaving, his size will become less of an issue for the team if we replace Gionta with a bigger talented scorer.

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05-12-2013, 10:40 AM
  #785
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Yes, people have a limited potential, but Desharnais can be better by working harder.
This isn't the movie 'Rudy' . Hard work won't make him any bigger, so he can go into the corners and get the puck, or stand in front of the net with any authority. DD is a perimeter player which is all fine and dandy.. if he was on a team with decent size.

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This year, he seemed to give up on the puck a lot easier than he did before. Last year, even when he lost puck battles, he made them work. This year, he would just swipe his stick at it and it became very annoying.
My guess is DD isn't flying under the radar any longer, and other teams know how easy it is to shut him down now that they focus on him. Some small players can get around that, some can't.

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I have no problem trading Desharnais or any player if it improves the team. We have 6 draft picks this year in the top ~90 picks, if Desharnais scores 60 points, you can get more than a 2nd round pick for him. Although with Gionta leaving, his size will become less of an issue for the team if we replace Gionta with a bigger talented scorer.
Serge Savard was the master of knowing when a player reached his pinnacle, and traded him when the value was high. Is Gionta confirmed as leaving?

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05-12-2013, 11:39 AM
  #786
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If he has a bounce-back season, I'd hope to get a bit more than just a 2nd round pick. But I agree with your reasoning.
The thing is, he produced similar points per minute ES to last season - he might not have dropped to 'bounce-back', the icetime he got in 2011/2012 is not realistic going forward, and too much competition for PP time (unless he'll be a staple regardless of production like this season forever).

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05-12-2013, 11:55 AM
  #787
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Yes, if he has a bounce back year and scores near 60-points, lets trade him for a 2nd around pick.
We can't have an army of players shorter than 6' (DD, Gallagher, Gionta, Hudon, Collberg, Kristo) as top-6 wingers. We have three now, and there are three more with a good shot of making the 2014-2015 opening day roster.

For me, Gionta is on the way out in the summer of 2014. I am almost certainly convinced that Gallagher is more valuable than DD, I could be wrong but I doubt it. Therefore, I say, trade DD for good value as soon as the opportunity opens up to do so.

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05-12-2013, 12:07 PM
  #788
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The thing is, he produced similar points per minute ES to last season - he might not have dropped to 'bounce-back', the icetime he got in 2011/2012 is not realistic going forward, and too much competition for PP time (unless he'll be a staple regardless of production like this season forever).
I won't argue that it's realistic, just that if he somehow were to pump his value back up by repeating his first year's numbers, then I'd want more than a 2nd. But I agree, Desharnais isn't good enough to keep getting the icetime he's been getting, whether it be on ES or PP, so if anything his point totals are likely to stay the same, or if the coaches put Eller into the 2nd center position next year, as I believe they should, get even worse. So his value may be the highest it will ever be right now. If management were sold on Galchenyuk being capable of easy opposition 3rd line C responsibilities next year, then they should trade him at the draft for some assets.

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05-12-2013, 12:12 PM
  #789
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We can't have an army of players shorter than 6' (DD, Gallagher, Gionta, Hudon, Collberg, Kristo) as top-6 wingers. We have three now, and there are three more with a good shot of making the 2014-2015 opening day roster.

For me, Gionta is on the way out in the summer of 2014. I am almost certainly convinced that Gallagher is more valuable than DD, I could be wrong but I doubt it. Therefore, I say, trade DD for good value as soon as the opportunity opens up to do so.
I'm not going to argue over whether I think we should keep DD or not, but if we do decide to trade him you could probably already get a second round pick for him. 50-60 points is going to get you a 2nd rounder from some team. If he puts up 50-60 points for a 3rd straight season (48 is close enough especially considering it was a shortened season), you're going to be able to get more than a just a 2nd for him.

You may not like the player, but you don't give him away for less than value. A 2nd is probably his value after struggling for a year, not what it'd be if he scored 60 points again.

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05-12-2013, 04:17 PM
  #790
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dd coulnt carry martin`s jock strap

remember st. Louis was part of an era where SIZE WAS MANDATORY

no one wanted small players 15 years ago , not with the rule changes top day that help them

there is no way he doesnt get drafted today
I am not saying DD is as good as Martin St-Louis. I am saying that we should not bash on the guy after 4 seasons with the result he achieved. I used Martin St-Louis to compare in order to show that even great players or not always that great that the start of there nhl career.

I wrote earlier that St-Louis was not good defensively and then searched an article that could prove my point. As a matter of fact, St-Louis made the nhl because he was good defensively so I was wrong on that part.

Desharnais needs to improve his balance and he also need to improve defensively. His offensive upside is sufficient for the salary he will be making next year. I am sure that he will improve enough to rebound next year. I am just tired to read comments from people that are giving up on him because he is not the first scorer on the team or the most physical player. He is not and will never be our first center again if he even was the first at one point.

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05-13-2013, 01:13 AM
  #791
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I'm not going to argue over whether I think we should keep DD or not, but if we do decide to trade him you could probably already get a second round pick for him. 50-60 points is going to get you a 2nd rounder from some team. If he puts up 50-60 points for a 3rd straight season (48 is close enough especially considering it was a shortened season), you're going to be able to get more than a just a 2nd for him.

You may not like the player, but you don't give him away for less than value. A 2nd is probably his value after struggling for a year, not what it'd be if he scored 60 points again.
DD will get shipped out at the first opportunity Bergevin has to unload his contract. The return will be similar to what we got back in the Rebeiro trade... i.e. a bag of pucks. As a matter of fact, we may have to eat a portion of his contract for another team to take him.
That is my prediction: BOOK IT.

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05-13-2013, 01:17 AM
  #792
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I am not saying DD is as good as Martin St-Louis. I am saying that we should not bash on the guy after 4 seasons with the result he achieved. I used Martin St-Louis to compare in order to show that even great players or not always that great that the start of there nhl career.

I wrote earlier that St-Louis was not good defensively and then searched an article that could prove my point. As a matter of fact, St-Louis made the nhl because he was good defensively so I was wrong on that part.

Desharnais needs to improve his balance and he also need to improve defensively. His offensive upside is sufficient for the salary he will be making next year. I am sure that he will improve enough to rebound next year. I am just tired to read comments from people that are giving up on him because he is not the first scorer on the team or the most physical player. He is not and will never be our first center again if he even was the first at one point.
Desharnais is the same sentence as St. Louis...

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05-13-2013, 01:22 AM
  #793
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I am not saying DD is as good as Martin St-Louis. I am saying that we should not bash on the guy after 4 seasons with the result he achieved. I used Martin St-Louis to compare in order to show that even great players or not always that great that the start of there nhl career.

I wrote earlier that St-Louis was not good defensively and then searched an article that could prove my point. As a matter of fact, St-Louis made the nhl because he was good defensively so I was wrong on that part.

Desharnais needs to improve his balance and he also need to improve defensively. His offensive upside is sufficient for the salary he will be making next year. I am sure that he will improve enough to rebound next year. I am just tired to read comments from people that are giving up on him because he is not the first scorer on the team or the most physical player. He is not and will never be our first center again if he even was the first at one point.
Problem is that we don't want him to be our 2nd center either. He can be good on the regular season but when comes the playoffs, he will be irrelevant. We should concentrate on building a team for the playoffs instead of that cute regular season team. At this point, I don't care how much he makes or how many points he gets in the regular season. It's what will he brings in the playoffs. Can he step up his game. Can he outplay the opponent. Can he adapt his game for the playoffs.

Watching DD playing this year's playoffs was just sad. It's like a kid playing with adults.

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05-13-2013, 04:26 AM
  #794
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DD is an interesting dilemma in that even if he plays much better next year, do we still want him? Or do we want someone bigger physically and trade DD for a defenseman with Eller taking his spot on the second line?

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05-13-2013, 04:35 AM
  #795
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DD is an interesting dilemma in that even if he plays much better next year, do we still want him? Or do we want someone bigger physically and trade DD for a defenseman with Eller taking his spot on the second line?
I say no we keep him, and we sign or trade for Nathan Gerbe, Cory Conacher and Stephen Gionta. Anyways we already have 25% of all the shortest players in the league, why stop there?

http://www.sportingcharts.com/articl...n-the-nhl.aspx

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05-13-2013, 08:23 AM
  #796
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Desharnais will here-by be known as Franco-Gomez.

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05-13-2013, 08:36 AM
  #797
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Desharnais will here-by be known as Franco-Gomez.
With less than half his salary.

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05-13-2013, 08:38 AM
  #798
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Desharnais will here-by be known as Franco-Gomez.
Unless Bergevin is the next Sam Pollock, I don't see how he's going to shed DD and still save face. He's the moron who extended him midseason to begin with.

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05-13-2013, 09:16 AM
  #799
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I am not saying DD is as good as Martin St-Louis. I am saying that we should not bash on the guy after 4 seasons with the result he achieved. I used Martin St-Louis to compare in order to show that even great players or not always that great that the start of there nhl career.

I wrote earlier that St-Louis was not good defensively and then searched an article that could prove my point. As a matter of fact, St-Louis made the nhl because he was good defensively so I was wrong on that part.

Desharnais needs to improve his balance and he also need to improve defensively. His offensive upside is sufficient for the salary he will be making next year. I am sure that he will improve enough to rebound next year. I am just tired to read comments from people that are giving up on him because he is not the first scorer on the team or the most physical player. He is not and will never be our first center again if he even was the first at one point.
The issue isn't production or JUST his size, it's the amount of accommodation he gets in terms of linemates/opposition/icetime that detracts from the rest of the lineup.

Can he improve on those issues? Perhaps, but he's yet been trusted to do so and his size hurts his ability to do so...

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05-13-2013, 09:21 AM
  #800
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The issue isn't production or JUST his size, it's the amount of accommodation he gets in terms of linemates/opposition/icetime that detracts from the rest of the lineup.
That's it, well put.

He's not a bad player in isolation - He's an NHLer (maybe not at centre though)
He's not a bad contract - 3.5$/yr is fair.
He's not a bad guy - worked all his life to make it, toiled away in every league, etc.
He had proven chemistry with Pacioretty - AHL, NHL
etc.

He just doesn't fit on this team, how we're built, the players we have - none of it. He doesn't fit and should be moved.

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