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Old
03-08-2013, 07:19 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by GaryBettman View Post
Yes, it is nice that we have so many 3rd line wingers. The downside is that none of them produce consistently enough to be good 2nd liners.
They are 3rd line wingers when our entire line-up is healthy. You are so spoiled as a fan you have yet to figure it out.

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03-08-2013, 07:26 PM
  #402
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They are 3rd line wingers when our entire line-up is healthy. You are so spoiled as a fan you have yet to figure it out.
I agree, we are spoilt. Most other teams would gladly swap places with the Nucks, but if the goal is to win the Cup then surely it is obvious that our 2nd line isn't good enough. Compare our 2nd line with elite teams like Chicago or Boston.

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03-08-2013, 07:46 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by GaryBettman View Post
I agree, we are spoilt. Most other teams would gladly swap places with the Nucks, but if the goal is to win the Cup then surely it is obvious that our 2nd line isn't good enough. Compare our 2nd line with elite teams like Chicago or Boston.
This is true but that isn't our second line.

When Kesler gets back that line gets significantly better, which then makes the 3rd line significantly better as well.

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03-08-2013, 08:43 PM
  #404
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People really think our wingers are good enough? I don't see it, I don't see playoff secondary scoring coming from our 2/3/4 lines outside of kesler if he's healthy. The same guys that have failed to produce the last few playoffs will magically do it this year? don't think so. We need an impact forward addition.

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03-09-2013, 09:39 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
People really think our wingers are good enough? I don't see it, I don't see playoff secondary scoring coming from our 2/3/4 lines outside of kesler if he's healthy. The same guys that have failed to produce the last few playoffs will magically do it this year? don't think so. We need an impact forward addition.


The wingers are, emphatically, "good enough". Without a shadow of a doubt. The following Booth article (posted by Vanuck in the Booth thread) states within it's text that all of Higgins, Raymond, Booth, and Hansen are 2nd liners by the simplest of definitions. Anything delving further into the realm of advanced stats only further supports this fact. Give it a read:

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2013/03...er-in-the-nhl/



So that's 8 total (including Kesler) top6 level forwards on this team. That's without Kassian and Schroeder. The wingers are good enough. The forwards as a group are good enough. Here's another article from Canucks Army that states that the Canucks are ranked 5th overall at even strength up this point, without Kesler, and with Booth just coming back. It's their PP that has fallen off a cliff. That, and only "average" goaltending overall, that has kept this team from reaching higher point totals.

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/3/8/the-...-half-way-mark

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03-09-2013, 09:52 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Aquisition
Higgins-Aquisition-Hansen
Raymond-Lapierre-Kassian

This is the kind of depth Im talking about. Sure Hansen could be a second liner and Schroeder can stay ont he team...good luck getting out of the 1st round though.

They could fill those acquisitions with top end talent and still get bounced in the 1st round. That's the nature and variance of a 7 game series.

Right now, this team ranks 5th in even strength effectiveness... 3rd in Corsi percentage. That's elite. And that's without Kesler and with Booth back for a few games, and with average goaltending and poor coaching...

The potential depth would be great, but unsustainable beyond this year. A factor that will play into what is brought in here. As it stands now though, the team is good enough to at least win their division, possibly get 2nd overall. If the coaches would get out of their own way, Kesler comes back, and the PP rights itself.

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03-09-2013, 09:55 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The wingers are, emphatically, "good enough". Without a shadow of a doubt. The following Booth article (posted by Vanuck in the Booth thread) states within it's text that all of Higgins, Raymond, Booth, and Hansen are 2nd liners by the simplest of definitions. Anything delving further into the realm of advanced stats only further supports this fact. Give it a read:

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2013/03...er-in-the-nhl/

So that's 8 total (including Kesler) top6 level forwards on this team. That's without Kassian and Schroeder. The wingers are good enough. The forwards as a group are good enough. Here's another article from Canucks Army that states that the Canucks are ranked 5th overall at even strength up this point, without Kesler, and with Booth just coming back. It's their PP that has fallen off a cliff. That, and only "average" goaltending overall, that has kept this team from reaching higher point totals.

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/3/8/the-...-half-way-mark
You quote these like they're THE authoritative definer of 2nd line players. Booth is a one dimensional player and if he's not scoring, he's useless to his team. And he's not scoring! This is actually a great example as to why these stats should carry no weight whatsoever, the quoted defensive stats are despite Booth not a result of Booth. He's a horrible defensive player.

I also wouldn't say the Canucks have 8 top 6 forwards either. Outside of the Sedins, Burrows, and Kesler who have proven over multiple years they are top 6, the rest have only shown flashes. If you're going to use random stats or short stretches to prove a positive point, you should also use the long stretches all those so-called 2nd liners go without producing any offense of substance (Booth 1 goal in last 20+ games!).

Without the Sedins, better than typical starts by Raymond and Hansen, good early season goaltending, and a weak starting schedule dominated by NW division games, this team would be on the outside looking in playoff spot wise.

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03-09-2013, 10:18 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Tim McCracken View Post
You quote these like they're THE authoritative definer of 2nd line players. Booth is a one dimensional player and if he's not scoring, he's useless to his team. And he's not scoring! This is actually a great example as to why these stats should carry no weight whatsoever, the quoted defensive stats are despite Booth not a result of Booth. He's a horrible defensive player.


The quoted defensive stats are despite Booth and not a result of Booth? What in the... I think you should read the article again.

Defensive play will never be Booth's forte, but he does enough not to get burned (GA when on ice) and he does more than anyone else on the team to drive the play from his zone to the oppositions end.

By _any_ reasonable metric, he and the others are 2nd liners. It really doesn't matter if you subjectively think he is not, you have nothing objective to back your hypothesis. PassittoBulis does. The fact that you said he's useless while not scoring only makes your argument look more suspect, because the article itself refutes what you are saying. It lays out before you why you are wrong...



Quote:
I also wouldn't say the Canucks have 8 top 6 forwards either. Outside of the Sedins, Burrows, and Kesler who have proven over multiple years they are top 6, the rest have only shown flashes. If you're going to use random stats or short stretches to prove a positive point, you should also use the long stretches all those so-called 2nd liners go without producing any offense of substance (Booth 1 goal in last 20+ games!).

Without the Sedins, better than typical starts by Raymond and Hansen, good early season goaltending, and a weak starting schedule dominated by NW division games, this team would be on the outside looking in playoff spot wise.


Booth has proven over 4 years that he's a top6 (1 year was on PPG pace). Raymond over 3 years (including this year). Higgins over 4 years. And now Hansen over 2 years (if he keeps this pace). Is that random or are you not looking close enough? Further, these are all bigger samples than the 20 game block you mention.

This team is 5th overall at ES Fenwick, and 3rd overall in Corsi percentage. That's with the record they have. Weak division or not, they underlying percentages only get that high if they are an elite team (top5). They are at the midpoint of the season, and this is the data so far. If you don't think the data is representative of where the team is at, then by all means, bring your own stats to bear.

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03-09-2013, 10:34 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Defensive play will never be Booth's forte, but he does enough not to get burned (GA when on ice) and he does more than anyone else on the team to drive the play from his zone to the oppositions end.
Wasn't he destroyed in Florida for way more goals against than anyone else on his team?

Corsi will never be a good way to judge Booth because he takes a ton of shots from areas where goals are virtually never scored from. Something few other players do.

I don't believe for a second that Booth drives the play more than a Kesler, Hansen or Higgins. Regardless of what these numbers say. Each player only represents about 10% of what happens on the ice 5 on 5 and that has to be factored into the findings. Very situational.

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03-09-2013, 10:48 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Wasn't he destroyed in Florida for way more goals against than anyone else on his team?

Corsi will never be a good way to judge Booth because he takes a ton of shots from areas where goals are virtually never scored from. Something few other players do.

I don't believe for a second that Booth drives the play more than a Kesler, Hansen or Higgins. Regardless of what these numbers say. Each player only represents about 10% of what happens on the ice 5 on 5 and that has to be factored into the findings. Very situational.

You don't believe the numbers? Is it safe to assume you will never bring up a numerical argument here to prove a point? I mean, if you don't believe in them, you should feel the need to use them to your advantage either. Fair?

BTW, that same Booth that you point out was shelled for a -31 rating in 2011, put up a +1 rating in VAN over 56 games. And before you go saying he was buoyed by Kesler, it was RK's second best +/- season in the NHL. To complete the bromance, it was Higgins's best +/- season in the NHL (+11)... But those are more stats, so I'm not sure a numerical argument will work here...

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03-09-2013, 10:49 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The quoted defensive stats are despite Booth and not a result of Booth? What in the... I think you should read the article again.

Defensive play will never be Booth's forte, but he does enough not to get burned (GA when on ice) and he does more than anyone else on the team to drive the play from his zone to the oppositions end.

By _any_ reasonable metric, he and the others are 2nd liners. It really doesn't matter if you subjectively think he is not, you have nothing objective to back your hypothesis. PassittoBulis does. The fact that you said he's useless while not scoring only makes your argument look more suspect, because the article itself refutes what you are saying. It lays out before you why you are wrong...







Booth has proven over 4 years that he's a top6 (1 year was on PPG pace). Raymond over 3 years (including this year). Higgins over 4 years. And now Hansen over 2 years (if he keeps this pace). Is that random or are you not looking close enough? Further, these are all bigger samples than the 20 game block you mention.

This team is 5th overall at ES Fenwick, and 3rd overall in Corsi percentage. That's with the record they have. Weak division or not, they underlying percentages only get that high if they are an elite team (top5). They are at the midpoint of the season, and this is the data so far. If you don't think the data is representative of where the team is at, then by all means, bring your own stats to bear.
Ok.
- 11 wins and 12 losses
- 17th in goals per game
- 11th in goals against
- 20th on the PP
- 18th on PK
- 18th in shots per game
- 10th lowest shots per game
- 22nd in face off%

Again, this is despite the Sedins turning up their production, better than typical starts by Raymond and Hansen, good early season goaltending, and a weak starting schedule dominated by NW division games.

This team had a season for the ages a couple years back and came up a game short. They are not ELITE now! That's laughable.

For the players:
Booth had one good season and a couple decent seasons on a horrible, non playoff team. One thing to remember about consistently lousy teams is they're consistently lousy because they don't have the talent but, hey, someone has to get ice time and as a result, someone will ultimately produce some points. Booth did that once and kind of did a couple more times but being in the top 6 on a lousy team doesn't make you a top 6 on an "elite" team. And by the way, Booth at no time has been at a PPG clip at any level!
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...81&encode=TRUE

Raymond, ironically, was being run out of town by most people and has had one 25 goal year and only one other .5 PPG year. I like Raymond but to pass him off as a consistent, proven 2nd liner is laughable.

Higgins, while a decent defensive forward, stopped being a consistent scoring threat 5 years ago in Montreal and over a 3 year period played for 5 teams. He was literally dumped by Calgary and Florida, both non-playoff teams. This happens for a reason and it doesn't happen to a truly valuable 2nd line player.

Hansen at 26 years of age has had exactly 1 year of 15 goals and no 20 goal seasons. I like Hansen too, he's a very useful player and all around solid guy, but he's a prototypical 3rd liner that could really add to a serious contender and that's it.

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03-09-2013, 11:10 AM
  #412
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Ok.
- 11 wins and 12 losses
- 17th in goals per game
- 11th in goals against
- 20th on the PP
- 18th on PK
- 18th in shots per game
- 10th lowest shots per game
- 22nd in face off%

Again, this is despite the Sedins turning up their production, better than typical starts by Raymond and Hansen, good early season goaltending, and a weak starting schedule dominated by NW division games.

This team had a season for the ages a couple years back and came up a game short. They are not ELITE now! That's laughable.



They are not getting the results of an elite team. However, they are performing at an elite level at ES. The lack of conversion on the PP and ES (conversion, not shots directed), is contributing to their poor numbers.

LA is a good example here. By the underlying stats, everyone knew they would start to get results, and now they have. It's the same with the Canucks. They are playing much better than their results would indicate. It's only a matter of time.

Most of those stats you've listed should improve as their PP does. The PK has already been clicking at an 85% rate since FEB, so that stat should improve as well. The only think I'm uncertain on are the face-offs, but Kesler has a lot to do with that viewpoint.



Quote:
For the players:
Booth had one good season and a couple decent seasons on a horrible, non playoff team. One thing to remember about consistently lousy teams is they're consistently lousy because they don't have the talent but, hey, someone has to get ice time and as a result, someone will ultimately produce some points. Booth did that once and kind of did a couple more times but being in the top 6 on a lousy team doesn't make you a top 6 on an "elite" team. And by the way, Booth at no time has been at a PPG clip at any level!
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...81&encode=TRUE

Raymond, ironically, was being run out of town by most people and has had one 25 goal year and only one other .5 PPG year. I like Raymond but to pass him off as a consistent, proven 2nd liner is laughable.

Higgins, while a decent defensive forward, stopped being a consistent scoring threat 5 years ago in Montreal and over a 3 year period played for 5 teams. He was literally dumped by Calgary and Florida, both non-playoff teams. This happens for a reason and it doesn't happen to a truly valuable 2nd line player.

Hansen at 26 years of age has had exactly 1 year of 15 goals and no 20 goal seasons. I like Hansen too, he's a very useful player and all around solid guy, but he's a prototypical 3rd liner that could really add to a serious contender and that's it.


Booth's scoring rate last year mimicked his rates from FLA, so that throws your "poor team" theory out.

Raymond has 2 years of proven 2nd line production. Top 180 amongst all forwards. One injured year, and now he's back on track for 2nd line production. So of the 4 years, one was below the cut-off. This is consistency. Do you need him to do what he is doing now for another year before he magically becomes consistent?

Higgins has produced at a 2nd line clip for 4 years. With the Canucks, he's offered them nothing but 2nd line production. Again, what are your expectations for consistent? Remember, these are 2nd liners and not 1st liners that are expected to put up PPG numbers.

Hansen has put up a top6 level PPG for 1.5 years. Soon to be 2 years. He's got the shortest track record of all of them, but he's in the top 100 ES producers in the league this year. While coming off a great year last year. From the looks of it, he should be included in the discussion with the other 3 now.



Again, none of what you have said here discredits that these players are 2nd liners. The article talks about people misjudging what a 2nd liner actually means, and I think you have fallen in that "trap". The numbers these wingers are putting up speak volumes. VAN does have, and will continue to have 6 top6 wingers and 8 top6 players overall.

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03-09-2013, 12:05 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You don't believe the numbers? Is it safe to assume you will never bring up a numerical argument here to prove a point? I mean, if you don't believe in them, you should feel the need to use them to your advantage either. Fair?

BTW, that same Booth that you point out was shelled for a -31 rating in 2011, put up a +1 rating in VAN over 56 games. And before you go saying he was buoyed by Kesler, it was RK's second best +/- season in the NHL. To complete the bromance, it was Higgins's best +/- season in the NHL (+11)... But those are more stats, so I'm not sure a numerical argument will work here...
So which point of mine are you disagreeing with? Was it that Booth has a tendency to shoot from areas on the ice where goals are rarely scored from? Or that each player only represents roughly 10% of events that happen on the ice 5 on 5?

Because obviously it wasn't the situational nature of Corsi. I assume it wasn't that because you showed just how different Booth's numbers looked in Florida compared to when riding shotgun with Kesler.

Like I said before, I put more emphasis in shots against numbers for Booth because he's doing it against the field. And it's encouraging shots against are down when he's on the ice. It's the shot for totals and it's effects on Corsi I will continue to take with a grain of salt.

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03-09-2013, 12:24 PM
  #414
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03-09-2013, 02:55 PM
  #415
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They are not getting the results of an elite team. However, they are performing at an elite level at ES. The lack of conversion on the PP and ES (conversion, not shots directed), is contributing to their poor numbers.

LA is a good example here. By the underlying stats, everyone knew they would start to get results, and now they have. It's the same with the Canucks. They are playing much better than their results would indicate. It's only a matter of time.

Most of those stats you've listed should improve as their PP does. The PK has already been clicking at an 85% rate since FEB, so that stat should improve as well. The only think I'm uncertain on are the face-offs, but Kesler has a lot to do with that viewpoint.







Booth's scoring rate last year mimicked his rates from FLA, so that throws your "poor team" theory out.

Raymond has 2 years of proven 2nd line production. Top 180 amongst all forwards. One injured year, and now he's back on track for 2nd line production. So of the 4 years, one was below the cut-off. This is consistency. Do you need him to do what he is doing now for another year before he magically becomes consistent?

Higgins has produced at a 2nd line clip for 4 years. With the Canucks, he's offered them nothing but 2nd line production. Again, what are your expectations for consistent? Remember, these are 2nd liners and not 1st liners that are expected to put up PPG numbers.

Hansen has put up a top6 level PPG for 1.5 years. Soon to be 2 years. He's got the shortest track record of all of them, but he's in the top 100 ES producers in the league this year. While coming off a great year last year. From the looks of it, he should be included in the discussion with the other 3 now.



Again, none of what you have said here discredits that these players are 2nd liners. The article talks about people misjudging what a 2nd liner actually means, and I think you have fallen in that "trap". The numbers these wingers are putting up speak volumes. VAN does have, and will continue to have 6 top6 wingers and 8 top6 players overall.
Wow, are you going to be disappointed when they get knocked out in the first round again....you know, being an elite team with so many top 6 forwards and all. The only one of these four guys they could get anything worthwhile for without packaging is Hansen. Booth will be given away or bought out. Bank on it.

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03-09-2013, 03:45 PM
  #416
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So which point of mine are you disagreeing with? Was it that Booth has a tendency to shoot from areas on the ice where goals are rarely scored from? Or that each player only represents roughly 10% of events that happen on the ice 5 on 5?

...

Like I said before, I put more emphasis in shots against numbers for Booth because he's doing it against the field. And it's encouraging shots against are down when he's on the ice. It's the shot for totals and it's effects on Corsi I will continue to take with a grain of salt.
You have to take shot distance numbers with a grain of salt, but he's fourth best on the team this season (behind Daniel, Burrows, and Sestito) and last season he was fifth amongst regular forwards (behind Burrows, Higgins, Weise, and Kassian).

The scoring chance numbers when he's on the ice don't significantly deviate from his Corsi. The team got 55.6% of the scoring chances when he was on the ice last season (based on Canucks Army's numbers) and they had 57.3% of the Corsi events.

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03-09-2013, 04:25 PM
  #417
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Still think this is our three areas of weakness:

1. We need Kesler.
2. We need another center. Manny's injury is still a big hole.
3. We need another right-hand defensemen. Garrison's success with Hamhuis has downgraded the need, but getting another right-hander who can also produce on the PP would add some good depth. Easier said than done.

If number 1 isn't good to go, I don't blame MG if he doesn't go all in.

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03-09-2013, 04:26 PM
  #418
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You have to take shot distance numbers with a grain of salt, but he's fourth best on the team this season (behind Daniel, Burrows, and Sestito) and last season he was fifth amongst regular forwards (behind Burrows, Higgins, Weise, and Kassian).

The scoring chance numbers when he's on the ice don't significantly deviate from his Corsi. The team got 55.6% of the scoring chances when he was on the ice last season (based on Canucks Army's numbers) and they had 57.3% of the Corsi events.
Do they track shot quality or just distance? Distance only tells half the story - angle is just as important. Booth takes a lot of tough angle shots where other players will look for another play.

Do you know what Booth's scoring chance numbers looked like in Florida when he was a -31? He was on for 25 more goals against than any other player on his team. That to me is a red flag...

Again, these shots/chances for and against numbers aren't useless by any stretch but they are extremely situational. Regardless of what Corsi says, I don't believe Todd Bertuzzi is a two way force. I look at Booth in a similar light. These results are heavily driven by linemates and opposition IMO.

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03-09-2013, 04:34 PM
  #419
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This is true but that isn't our second line.

When Kesler gets back that line gets significantly better, which then makes the 3rd line significantly better as well.
Kesler wasn't in game shape for that 7 game stint prior to a broken foot. I don't see any reason why he'd be effective in a month and a half now. Kesler's chemistry is way off.

I remember a few powerplays during his short season so far where he was HAMMERING his stick on the ice for a pass. Sedin gives it to him. He loses the puck or shoots wide. Puck clears zone. Kesler HAMMMERS his stick for a pass and Sedin doesn't give it to him this time. What makes Burrows so good is that he KNOWS Henrik knows where he is and doesn't need the audible stick smashing ice sound. Kesler needs to relax and simply be the offwing trigger man for whenever the pass comes his way on the PP and settle the frick down.

Who does Kesler then play with on the 2nd line as AV has had that line in constant rotation all year. Kassian has been up and down. Booth has been mediocore. Raymond seems like the right guy for one wing but he falls so much he turns the puck over. Hanson is good in spurts but as a key PK guy it's best his even strength ice time is on the 3rd line.

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03-09-2013, 04:52 PM
  #420
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You quote these like they're THE authoritative definer of 2nd line players. Booth is a one dimensional player and if he's not scoring, he's useless to his team. And he's not scoring! This is actually a great example as to why these stats should carry no weight whatsoever, the quoted defensive stats are despite Booth not a result of Booth. He's a horrible defensive player.

I also wouldn't say the Canucks have 8 top 6 forwards either. Outside of the Sedins, Burrows, and Kesler who have proven over multiple years they are top 6, the rest have only shown flashes. If you're going to use random stats or short stretches to prove a positive point, you should also use the long stretches all those so-called 2nd liners go without producing any offense of substance (Booth 1 goal in last 20+ games!).

Without the Sedins, better than typical starts by Raymond and Hansen, good early season goaltending, and a weak starting schedule dominated by NW division games, this team would be on the outside looking in playoff spot wise.
How is Raymond not a top 6 forward? He's suffered some injuries but is back to being around 20G 45-50P.

So if everyone sucked the team would suck? Great analysis.

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03-09-2013, 04:52 PM
  #421
Fat Tony
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Originally Posted by Hyack57 View Post
Kesler wasn't in game shape for that 7 game stint prior to a broken foot.
Kesler broke his foot in his first game back.

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Old
03-09-2013, 04:54 PM
  #422
serge2k
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You don't believe the numbers? Is it safe to assume you will never bring up a numerical argument here to prove a point? I mean, if you don't believe in them, you should feel the need to use them to your advantage either. Fair?

BTW, that same Booth that you point out was shelled for a -31 rating in 2011, put up a +1 rating in VAN over 56 games. And before you go saying he was buoyed by Kesler, it was RK's second best +/- season in the NHL. To complete the bromance, it was Higgins's best +/- season in the NHL (+11)... But those are more stats, so I'm not sure a numerical argument will work here...
Is it not possible that the poster doesn't believe in your numbers?

I certainly don't believe a lot of things these "advanced stats" say.

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03-09-2013, 05:00 PM
  #423
serge2k
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Originally Posted by Hyack57 View Post
Kesler wasn't in game shape for that 7 game stint prior to a broken foot. I don't see any reason why he'd be effective in a month and a half now. Kesler's chemistry is way off.

I remember a few powerplays during his short season so far where he was HAMMERING his stick on the ice for a pass. Sedin gives it to him. He loses the puck or shoots wide. Puck clears zone. Kesler HAMMMERS his stick for a pass and Sedin doesn't give it to him this time. What makes Burrows so good is that he KNOWS Henrik knows where he is and doesn't need the audible stick smashing ice sound. Kesler needs to relax and simply be the offwing trigger man for whenever the pass comes his way on the PP and settle the frick down.

Who does Kesler then play with on the 2nd line as AV has had that line in constant rotation all year. Kassian has been up and down. Booth has been mediocore. Raymond seems like the right guy for one wing but he falls so much he turns the puck over. Hanson is good in spurts but as a key PK guy it's best his even strength ice time is on the 3rd line.
He didn't have seven games before a broken foot, he had several games where he played with a broken foot before they found it.


and I will ask everyone going on about how great chicago is and how awful vancouver is. Where are chicago's other top 6 forwards? They have Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Canucks have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, and Burrows.

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03-09-2013, 05:01 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
Is it not possible that the poster doesn't believe in your numbers?

I certainly don't believe a lot of things these "advanced stats" say.
I believe in the concept of Corsi. I just happen to think there a lot of things out of a players control that effect the numbers, as in linemates and opposition.

Corsi would have you believe Todd bertuzzi is a two-way force. Is it wrong to question that?

Booth went from being Hodgson'ized at even strength in '10-11 to all of a sudden a 'two-way force' the next year in Vancouver. Hmmm.

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03-09-2013, 06:11 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Tim McCracken View Post
Wow, are you going to be disappointed when they get knocked out in the first round again....you know, being an elite team with so many top 6 forwards and all. The only one of these four guys they could get anything worthwhile for without packaging is Hansen. Booth will be given away or bought out. Bank on it.
The sentiment on Booth is vintage "grass is always greener" attitude. Sure, he hasn't made a splash like we thought he would but who are you going to get that is so much better in this spot ?

Nobodys junk is better then ours. ELCs are the diffrence makers and Gillis seems to like running them out of town. That is why MG needs to go. Not booth

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