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Old
03-09-2013, 07:13 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
He didn't have seven games before a broken foot, he had several games where he played with a broken foot before they found it.


and I will ask everyone going on about how great chicago is and how awful vancouver is. Where are chicago's other top 6 forwards? They have Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Canucks have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, and Burrows.
Sharp sucks this year too. I think Hansen has more points

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03-09-2013, 07:18 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Sharp sucks this year too. I think Hansen has more points
Sharp has a bunked shoulder. He's not playing right now.

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03-09-2013, 07:20 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
The sentiment on Booth is vintage "grass is always greener" attitude. Sure, he hasn't made a splash like we thought he would but who are you going to get that is so much better in this spot ?

Nobodys junk is better then ours. ELCs are the diffrence makers and Gillis seems to like running them out of town. That is why MG needs to go. Not booth
You can get o goals, 1 assist and some hits for 1 million and use the 3.2 million somewhere else. Booth has to produce, he's the big Gillis top 6 addition, the first since Sundin and Demitra in 2008, oh and the Bernier failure.

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03-09-2013, 07:23 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by thepuckmonster View Post
Sharp has a bunked shoulder. He's not playing right now.
Well he just got injured. I think he's only missed one game thus far.

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03-09-2013, 07:26 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by andbreatheme View Post
Well he just got injured. I think he's only missed one game thus far.
I think it was speculated he injured it earlier on and has been playing hurt.

Nonetheless you have to be smoking some crazy **** to think that Hansen > Sharp.

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03-09-2013, 07:27 PM
  #431
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Sharp sucks this year too. I think Hansen has more points
Sharp has 18 points. I love Hansen but he's no Sharp.

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03-09-2013, 07:28 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by thepuckmonster View Post
I think it was speculated he injured it earlier on and has been playing hurt.

Nonetheless you have to be smoking some crazy **** to think that Hansen > Sharp.
Oh, okay.

And yeah.

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03-09-2013, 07:33 PM
  #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
He didn't have seven games before a broken foot, he had several games where he played with a broken foot before they found it.


and I will ask everyone going on about how great chicago is and how awful vancouver is. Where are chicago's other top 6 forwards? They have Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Canucks have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, and Burrows.
This X100 when Kesler is playing like Kesler I'd actually take the Canucks top 4. The Hawks still have trouble with depth I'd much rather have players like Booth, Raymond, Hansen, Higgins, Kassian ETC over Frolik, Bolland, Saad ETC. The Hawks are getting massively overrated by there great start to the year.

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03-09-2013, 07:35 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
and I will ask everyone going on about how great chicago is and how awful vancouver is. Where are chicago's other top 6 forwards? They have Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Canucks have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, and Burrows.
Chicago is getting the job done so far. What other criteria is there?

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03-09-2013, 08:12 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by thepuckmonster View Post
Sharp has a bunked shoulder. He's not playing right now.
As of 48 hours ago

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03-09-2013, 08:14 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by thepuckmonster View Post
I think it was speculated he injured it earlier on and has been playing hurt.

Nonetheless you have to be smoking some crazy **** to think that Hansen > Sharp.
They would find rest for him on that team if ge was hurt

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03-09-2013, 08:18 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
He didn't have seven games before a broken foot, he had several games where he played with a broken foot before they found it.


and I will ask everyone going on about how great chicago is and how awful vancouver is. Where are chicago's other top 6 forwards? They have Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Canucks have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, and Burrows.
Chicago is doing great in the REGULAR SEASON, don't forget chicago lost in the 1st round last year with a similiar team.

Hawks don't scare me one bit.

Why should we compare our team (if we are aiming for the cup) to the present hawks?

We should strive to be as good a team as the Hawks team that actually won a freaking cup.


Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Byfuglien, Bolland, Versteeg, Ladd, Brouwer, Kopecky

Keith, Seabrook, B.Campbell, Hjammer

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03-09-2013, 08:31 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
Sharp has 18 points. I love Hansen but he's no Sharp.
Sharp has a 5+ md cap hit

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03-09-2013, 08:33 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
This X100 when Kesler is playing like Kesler I'd actually take the Canucks top 4. The Hawks still have trouble with depth I'd much rather have players like Booth, Raymond, Hansen, Higgins, Kassian ETC over Frolik, Bolland, Saad ETC. The Hawks are getting massively overrated by there great start to the year.
Funny you mention Frolik. He's another Florida guy

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03-09-2013, 08:39 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Sharp has a 5+ md cap hit
He also sucks this year, right?

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03-09-2013, 08:40 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Sharp has a 5+ md cap hit
And a Stanley cup.

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Old
03-09-2013, 08:42 PM
  #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
Chicago is doing great in the REGULAR SEASON, don't forget chicago lost in the 1st round last year with a similiar team.

Hawks don't scare me one bit.

Why should we compare our team (if we are aiming for the cup) to the present hawks?

We should strive to be as good a team as the Hawks team that actually won a freaking cup.


Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Byfuglien, Bolland, Versteeg, Ladd, Brouwer, Kopecky

Keith, Seabrook, B.Campbell, Hjammer
That's the funny thing with this Chicago team, considering the streak you'd think they'd be this amazing team... but they really don't have anyone different than last year and on paper aren't nearly as good as the year they won the cup. If you were to just look at their teams player stat page for the season you'd never guess that they only just lost their first regulation game.

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Old
03-10-2013, 06:05 AM
  #443
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He also sucks this year, right?
He's in my pool. Certainly not putting up the numbers that I traded him for...

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Old
03-10-2013, 06:30 AM
  #444
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
This X100 when Kesler is playing like Kesler I'd actually take the Canucks top 4. The Hawks still have trouble with depth I'd much rather have players like Booth, Raymond, Hansen, Higgins, Kassian ETC over Frolik, Bolland, Saad ETC. The Hawks are getting massively overrated by there great start to the year.
This.

Our top 4 = Hawks top 4.

Our forward depth > Hawks forward depth.

Our D core > Hawks D core

(We lack that true #1 like Keith but I would put Eddie and Hammer, and maybe even Bieksa in Seabrooks category, then depth wise we have more guys, our 3rd pair is a 2nd pair IMO)

Nucks Goaltending > Hawks Goaltending

(Crawford & Emery have been great, but I will still take Lu and Schneider over CC and Emery)

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Old
03-10-2013, 07:57 AM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The wingers are, emphatically, "good enough". Without a shadow of a doubt. The following Booth article (posted by Vanuck in the Booth thread) states within it's text that all of Higgins, Raymond, Booth, and Hansen are 2nd liners by the simplest of definitions. Anything delving further into the realm of advanced stats only further supports this fact. Give it a read:

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2013/03...er-in-the-nhl/



So that's 8 total (including Kesler) top6 level forwards on this team. That's without Kassian and Schroeder. The wingers are good enough. The forwards as a group are good enough. Here's another article from Canucks Army that states that the Canucks are ranked 5th overall at even strength up this point, without Kesler, and with Booth just coming back. It's their PP that has fallen off a cliff. That, and only "average" goaltending overall, that has kept this team from reaching higher point totals.

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/3/8/the-...-half-way-mark
Drance made a very good point in the 2nd article. Adding Booth and then Garrison over the past 2 years has made this team better at even strength. And knowing what we know about how penalties go down in the playoffs, I think this can only bode well for this team in that sort of environment. The previous two years we've been very reliant on the PP and it hurt our offence when the rules inevitably change once we hit the stretch drive.

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Old
03-10-2013, 08:33 AM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Tim McCracken View Post
You quote these like they're THE authoritative definer of 2nd line players. Booth is a one dimensional player and if he's not scoring, he's useless to his team. And he's not scoring! This is actually a great example as to why these stats should carry no weight whatsoever, the quoted defensive stats are despite Booth not a result of Booth. He's a horrible defensive player.

I also wouldn't say the Canucks have 8 top 6 forwards either. Outside of the Sedins, Burrows, and Kesler who have proven over multiple years they are top 6, the rest have only shown flashes. If you're going to use random stats or short stretches to prove a positive point, you should also use the long stretches all those so-called 2nd liners go without producing any offense of substance (Booth 1 goal in last 20+ games!).

Without the Sedins, better than typical starts by Raymond and Hansen, good early season goaltending, and a weak starting schedule dominated by NW division games, this team would be on the outside looking in playoff spot wise.
Take your best 2 players off the team. Of course you'd have a tougher time making the playoffs.

Imagine Hawks less Toews and Kane.
Pens less Sid and Malkin.
Wings less Zetterberg and Datsyuk.
Bruins less Krejci and Bergeron/Seguin.

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:20 AM
  #447
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
So which point of mine are you disagreeing with? Was it that Booth has a tendency to shoot from areas on the ice where goals are rarely scored from? Or that each player only represents roughly 10% of events that happen on the ice 5 on 5?

Because obviously it wasn't the situational nature of Corsi. I assume it wasn't that because you showed just how different Booth's numbers looked in Florida compared to when riding shotgun with Kesler.

Like I said before, I put more emphasis in shots against numbers for Booth because he's doing it against the field. And it's encouraging shots against are down when he's on the ice. It's the shot for totals and it's effects on Corsi I will continue to take with a grain of salt.


When you take a great enough sample, we no longer see Corsi as situational. It can be tracked across teams, and across lines. Somewhere there is an average... which should completely dispel your line of reasoning there.

Even if Booth only represents a certain percentage of the events when on the ice, he himself has become the high water mark in those events, time and again, that we can begin to infer that he plays a prominent role in how those events shake out.

The shot quality I'll get into later...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Do they track shot quality or just distance? Distance only tells half the story - angle is just as important. Booth takes a lot of tough angle shots where other players will look for another play.

Do you know what Booth's scoring chance numbers looked like in Florida when he was a -31? He was on for 25 more goals against than any other player on his team. That to me is a red flag...

Again, these shots/chances for and against numbers aren't useless by any stretch but they are extremely situational. Regardless of what Corsi says, I don't believe Todd Bertuzzi is a two way force. I look at Booth in a similar light. These results are heavily driven by linemates and opposition IMO.


Read this article on shot quality: http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/7/3/shot-...s-but-how-much

Quote:
The argument is actually that most shot quality effects are smaller than people think, and that over the sample sizes we normally work with, differences in shot quality tend to be dominated more by noise than talent
Here's another excerpt:

Quote:
people's shooting skill is so transient that only Ilya Kovalchuk and Alex Tanguay can be unambiguously identified as being good shooters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
Is it not possible that the poster doesn't believe in your numbers?

I certainly don't believe a lot of things these "advanced stats" say.


They aren't my numbers, they are articles posted by PassittoBulis or CanucksArmy.

You don't have to believe in them. But when arguments are subjective both ways, this is about the only objective way to get somewhere. Unless you have a different option?

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:23 AM
  #448
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Drance made a very good point in the 2nd article. Adding Booth and then Garrison over the past 2 years has made this team better at even strength. And knowing what we know about how penalties go down in the playoffs, I think this can only bode well for this team in that sort of environment. The previous two years we've been very reliant on the PP and it hurt our offence when the rules inevitably change once we hit the stretch drive.

Yes, Booth and Garrison have made this team better at ES. As a result, I too think this team is more prepared for the playoffs than in years past... Have to get the PP going though.

It's another reason why I think any acquisition Gillis brings in will be a good ES player first and foremost. The PP stuff sorting itself out as we go along. A big skater, preferably a C, that helps at ES. Eller would have been great. Goc less so, due to size and durability, but he could help as well.

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Old
03-10-2013, 11:32 AM
  #449
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Some people's standards for a top 6 forward is completely unrealistic, it's like wanting 2 lines of top line players. No team has 6 of these top 6 forwards we seem to be lacking

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03-10-2013, 01:01 PM
  #450
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You can get o goals, 1 assist and some hits for 1 million and use the 3.2 million somewhere else. Booth has to produce, he's the big Gillis top 6 addition, the first since Sundin and Demitra in 2008, oh and the Bernier failure.
You have Sundin and Demitra in 2008, Samuelsson (who scored 27 G per 82 GP here) in 2009, Higgins (scored goals at about the same rate as Demitra) in 2010 and Booth in 2011.

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