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Old
03-18-2013, 11:46 PM
  #926
NugentHopkinsfan
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What I meant was he wasn't afraid to admit the signing of Sturm was a mistake.
Well that was a tiny move, he also admitted M. Schneider was a mistake, he's made a lot of mistakes. But when you trade one mistake for another much higher paid mistake it makes things worse.

IMO Gillis has been one giant mistake for 2 years now.

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03-19-2013, 12:10 AM
  #927
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Time is now for Gillis to step up and make a move. Booth is done, Kesler is still a ways away, they need help now, waiting until the deadline could be too late.

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03-19-2013, 12:24 AM
  #928
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For the first time I'm starting to doubt MG. Thought he had more in him.

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03-19-2013, 12:33 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
Well that was a tiny move, he also admitted M. Schneider was a mistake, he's made a lot of mistakes. But when you trade one mistake for another much higher paid mistake it makes things worse.

IMO Gillis has been one giant mistake for 2 years now.
Even when Booth was at a 23 goal pace last season with the Canucks, would you really call that a mistake? He brought more to the table than Sturm ever could. I don't think you could have gotten anything more in a trade than for what MG gave up.

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03-19-2013, 12:36 AM
  #930
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Even when Booth was at a 23 goal pace last season with the Canucks, would you really call that a mistake? He brought more to the table than Sturm ever could. I don't think you could have gotten anything more in a trade than for what MG gave up.
I would call it a mistake because he is very very very injury prone, has zero playmaking abilities, can't pass and plays with his head down, and IMO is overpaid for what he brings. So because of the length of his contract alone I would say it was a risky move.

Now he has to be bought out because a team can't invest that much cap space in a guy that can't stay healthy and has so many flaws in his game, and 1 goal in his last 27.

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03-19-2013, 12:42 AM
  #931
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You guys expect MG to just start pulling off trades as if it's easy to do so. The TSN insiders said they've talked to GM's around the league, and have said the prices for players is through the roof at this point in time. I want things to happen too, but it's not as easy as some of you seem to think it is.

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03-19-2013, 12:43 AM
  #932
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Even when Booth was at a 23 goal pace last season with the Canucks, would you really call that a mistake? He brought more to the table than Sturm ever could.
Well, ok, but comparing one mistake to another mistake is not really the best benchmark ever invented, eh?


 
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03-19-2013, 12:44 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
Ehrhoff at 5.2 vs Ballard at 4.2.... give me Ehrhoff every day of the week.


You want to talk about asset management? paying Booth, Ballard, and a back up goalie a minimum of 12.4 million(13.7 if Luongo is the back up that week) is good asset management?

I'm sure you can allocate 1 million of that pile of waste to a puck moving d-men that fit here perfectly and was a huge part of our transition game and style of play.


Again, you are making the wrong Ehrhoff vs. Ballard comparison. It's Ehrhoff vs. the money. It always was.

What are you replacing Booth/Ballard with and what is the acquisition cost? The reason Gillis is able to take on these _average_ contracts because he is so good everywhere else in issuing his own contracts. Part of the reason or that is the "covenant" put in place.

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03-19-2013, 12:48 AM
  #934
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Originally Posted by PG Canuck View Post
You guys expect MG to just start pulling off trades as if it's easy to do so. The TSN insiders said they've talked to GM's around the league, and have said the prices for players is through the roof at this point in time. I want things to happen too, but it's not as easy as some of you seem to think it is.
Yeah, you don't just go and pick off second line centers and wingers off of trees and call it a day. Something substantial will have to go back the other way to get the kind of upgrades we need.

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03-19-2013, 12:48 AM
  #935
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Again, you are making the wrong Ehrhoff vs. Ballard comparison. It's Ehrhoff vs. the money. It always was.

What are you replacing Booth/Ballard with and what is the acquisition cost? The reason Gillis is able to take on these _average_ contracts because he is so good everywhere else in issuing his own contracts. Part of the reason or that is the "covenant" put in place.
Average contracts? Ballard at 4.2 is horrible and so is Booth and spending 9 million on goalies is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a GM do.

We'd be better off with:

Ehrhoff for 5.2
Forward for 6
Back up goalie for 1-2

Instead of Booth, Ballard, 2 starting goalies. But that's just my opinion, we're wasting cap space and lost our transition game and to me that was worth an extra 1 million. We spent years trying to find a good skating d-man and we had one and let him go and it's going to be very hard to find another one.

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03-19-2013, 12:49 AM
  #936
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Well, ok, but comparing one mistake to another mistake is not really the best benchmark ever invented, eh?

Is your avatar meant to imply the sticking of a fork into Canucks?

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03-19-2013, 12:50 AM
  #937
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
Forward for 6
I'm not sure "the covenant" allows for another forward making Sedin money.

 
Old
03-19-2013, 12:50 AM
  #938
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Originally Posted by andbreatheme View Post
Yeah, you don't just go and pick off second line centers and wingers off of trees and call it a day. Something substantial will have to go back the other way to get the kind of upgrades we need.
And quite frankly, we don't really have the pieces to fill the holes we're desperate for. Unless we ship off Jensen and the other few highly touted prospects we have.

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03-19-2013, 12:50 AM
  #939
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Is your avatar meant to imply the sticking of a fork into Canucks?
Ha!

But...no.

There are an awful lot of poor teams this year, Canucks aren't out of the running just yet.

 
Old
03-19-2013, 12:54 AM
  #940
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Originally Posted by PG Canuck View Post
You guys expect MG to just start pulling off trades as if it's easy to do so. The TSN insiders said they've talked to GM's around the league, and have said the prices for players is through the roof at this point in time. I want things to happen too, but it's not as easy as some of you seem to think it is.
Exactly.

It's almost like people think MG is just not making deals, like they think the deal makes sense for us and is just sitting there waiting to be accepted and MG is just holding off.

MG is working everyday, non-stop to get a deal done. It's not easy with the salary cap and the condensed season with so many teams in the running.

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03-19-2013, 12:56 AM
  #941
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Exactly.

It's almost like people think MG is just not making deals, like they think the deal makes sense for us and is just sitting there waiting to be accepted and MG is just holding off.

MG is working everyday, non-stop to get a deal done. It's not easy with the salary cap and the condensed season with so many teams in the running.
Working hard and not getting it done, sounds like someone who isn't too good at their job.

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03-19-2013, 01:01 AM
  #942
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Originally Posted by CanucksSayEh View Post
Working hard and not getting it done, sounds like someone who isn't too good at their job.
Alright then, lets give up a 1st + Prospect for a rental and see how well that is working out for us in 2 years.

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03-19-2013, 01:02 AM
  #943
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Well, ok, but comparing one mistake to another mistake is not really the best benchmark ever invented, eh?

If the 2nd 'mistake' is an upgrade that scores goals, then who really cares what the benchmark is?

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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I would call it a mistake because he is very very very injury prone, has zero playmaking abilities, can't pass and plays with his head down, and IMO is overpaid for what he brings. So because of the length of his contract alone I would say it was a risky move.

Now he has to be bought out because a team can't invest that much cap space in a guy that can't stay healthy and has so many flaws in his game, and 1 goal in his last 27.
If by "very injury prone" that you mean "extraordinarily, freakishly unlucky with injuries" then I would agree. You're giving him grief for things that weren't even under his control. The knee-on-knee, the skating drill and that trip by the Wings player could have happened to anyone.

As to the bolded, that's an exaggeration. There is no player in the NHL who can't pass - even 4th liners can do that. And the head-down part isn't as big of an issue as you're making it. He does enough to score goals every year.

It's easy to see the flaws in his game, but you have to understand the luck component of it - it's part of the game. Too many people just look at his 1 goal and think "buyout" without considering why that is. Were you still harping on his flaws even when he was scoring those goals last year?

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03-19-2013, 01:03 AM
  #944
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Exactly.

It's almost like people think MG is just not making deals, like they think the deal makes sense for us and is just sitting there waiting to be accepted and MG is just holding off.

MG is working everyday, non-stop to get a deal done. It's not easy with the salary cap and the condensed season with so many teams in the running.
Well in the meantime...maybe our coach should adapt to work with what he has...you know, like pretty much every other team in the NHL.

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03-19-2013, 01:03 AM
  #945
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If **** goes down tomorrow against St.Louis..

You can bet your ass things won't go well..

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Old
03-19-2013, 01:06 AM
  #946
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Well in the meantime...maybe our coach should adapt to work with what he has...you know, like pretty much every other team in the NHL.
Wouldn't that be great? Pointing the blame where it should be.

Although I think people prefer to continue to pile on the GM for not overpaying for an average player.

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03-19-2013, 01:06 AM
  #947
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
I've said the team is better with Ehrhoff than without and that Ehrhoff was one of several factors that made the team better. If the team won more with him, then yes, I would say that we were a better team. Fairly straightforward deductive logic.

Team wins more with Ehrhoff and healthy 3rd line C
Winning = being better

Therefore

The team is better with Ehrhoff and a healthy 3rd line C

Ehrhoff was a huge factor, followed by a healthy Malhotra.

Ehrhoff + healthy Manny vs. No Ehrhoff + no Manny is an easy choice. The former is preferred. But when you start comparing Dmen like Ehrhoff vs. Garrison, and the money allocated there in, that's where we disagree. I see Garrison as more valuable.
He is a top competition Dman. Ehrhoff isn't.

I think there is confusion here as to "better team" and better team at ES. Right now, the PP and ES goaltending is really hurting this team. Which results in less wins. But is the team worse at ES? I would say no. I think this incarnation is better at ES, than even the 2011 team. If goaltending "reverts" back to what is was, and the PP is at least middling, they compare favourably to the 2011 team. Do you disagree?


Quote:
My ultimate point was that as he was such an amazing fit, and did contribute to the Canucks being a much better team than they currently are, and it was shortsighted to let him walk over 0.7K per season or whatever the difference was. I see that recognizing has brought the Gillis apologists out in full force, but it seems as though many are desperately trying to convince yourselves that losing Ehrhoff was no biggie.

In the grand scheme, losing Ehrhoff was the right move. That's not an apologist POV. If people disagree with your opinion, it doesn't make them apologists by default.

Do directly contrast your point: I think it as _FAR_sighted to let Ehrhoff walk. It's the covenant vs. the player, and Gillis chose right in choosing the covenant.



Quote:
Saying he's soft is quite different from stating he is putrid, or was horrible in the playoffs, etc. He was never going to be the second coming of Scott Stevens, but I don't think he was severely outplayed at all, and this is a case of revisionist history. He wasn't great, but you make it sound like he was the worst player on the team each and every game. That wasn't the case, and he was injured. Again, he was the best player vs the Ducks when he was a Shark, and he had a shoulder injury which required offseason surgery.

I thought he was horrible in the playoffs. From the start. His should injury came later. It got to the point that I was cringing seeing him out there in ES situations because if the Sedins turned the puck over, it was high risk Dzone play soon after. He got man-handled along the boards and in full survival mode everywhere else. That's my memory of the Hoff.

Also, if DW felt the way you did about Ehrhoff in the ANA series, he wouldn't have _dumped_ him to a Western rival.


Quote:
Is he really helping the team that much? We are worse in the standings. The sv% comment was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else, but I do think that having stable, balanced pairings with defencemen playing their natural sides is better than the island of misfit toys Bowness and AV seem to be taking at the moment.

I wouldn't say that Hamhuis - Garrison pairing as been amazing, and once again the Edler - Bieksa pairing is bleeding goals against.

I would rather have a cheaper and inferior RHD that makes each pairing more effective, yes. You are looking at these players individually and out of context, both Ehrhoff and Garrison. I'm looking at thing holistically, or from a big picture perspective, and how certain parts result in a sum greater than the value of the individual pieces, as we saw with Ehrhoff when he was paired with Edler and saw icetime with the Sedins.

opendoor's SV% was "tongue in cheek"? It outlines a major reason why this team is at where it is right now. We are worse in the standings due to PP scoring, Injuries, and ES SV%. But through it all, Garrison is doing the best of the Dmen so far. That should mean something.

And your last paragraph is the issue in a nutshell: Any time you prefer an inferior Dman, you are wrong. It doesn't matter if it balances the pairs.

Everyone is looking at this from multiple angles. Opendoor has. I have. But we see what Ehrhoff was differently than you do. We see his impact differently. Especially when the ills of this team can largely be explained by a difference in ES SV%. What does that say about his importance overall? And this team's reliance on him in particular?

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03-19-2013, 01:13 AM
  #948
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Look, Gillis isn't a saint. I think he's done a good job overall but of course his actions should be questioned.

But all this discussion has made me think of a scenario that makes me shudder:

If some on this board had their way - Gillis is fired and AV is retained. OH GOD THE HUMANITY! PLEASE NO!

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03-19-2013, 01:14 AM
  #949
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Well in the meantime...maybe our coach should adapt to work with what he has...you know, like pretty much every other team in the NHL.
Go home mossey, you're drunk. Clearly everyone should be adapting to him!

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03-19-2013, 01:15 AM
  #950
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Saying he's soft is quite different from stating he is putrid, or was horrible in the playoffs, etc. He was never going to be the second coming of Scott Stevens, but I don't think he was severely outplayed at all, and this is a case of revisionist history. He wasn't great, but you make it sound like he was the worst player on the team each and every game. That wasn't the case, and he was injured. Again, he was the best player vs the Ducks when he was a Shark, and he had a shoulder injury which required offseason surgery.
I completely agree with pretty much the whole post there, but edited for length. The key point to me is the above. Ehrhoff may have been 'soft' in the sense that he wasn't going to blow people up with any regularity. But he was a big body who didn't take much **** from opposing players. 'Don't Hassle the Hoff' comes to mind. And that Boston series...he was a guy playing on one arm. How many huge hits did you expect him to dish out?

To put it in perspective...Ehrhoff was tougher than Tanev...and i think we can all agree Tanev is adored among fans of this team, and for good reason. Ehrhoff brought a very different skillset to the table than Tanev, and for a very different pricetag...but it's absurd to go with this idea that we have no room for 'soft' players in our mix on the blueline. The fact is, Ehrhoff was a huge catalyst in making our team the absurdly dominant group it was. Just like Gillis coughed up a big hunk of change to get Malhotra as a guy who played a VERY specific role on this team...he could've done much the same with Ehrhoff. He fit the zone deployment scheme that is constantly touted for forwards to a T. But he was cut loose and our PP and breakout hasn't been the same ever since.

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Even when Booth was at a 23 goal pace last season with the Canucks, would you really call that a mistake? He brought more to the table than Sturm ever could. I don't think you could have gotten anything more in a trade than for what MG gave up.
The mistake wasn't in bringing in Booth for Sammy and Sturm. You do that deal every day of the week and twice on Sundays with your eyes close. The mistake...would be holding on to Booth who is showing strong signs of not panning out here...exactly as Gillis has done with Ballard. This idea of waiting and waiting and waiting 'until they come around' just doesn't fly for me. Gillis hung onto a player in Ballard who showed clear signs that he just wasn't a fit from basically day one. Booth has been much the same...and i'm really anxious to see how Gillis handles this situation. I want to see that Gillis has learned his lesson from the previous bunch of experiences in hanging onto players too long in the name of 'patience', and move Booth while he's still got the benefit of the doubt for other teams.

The people making excuses for Booth saying 'oh he's done this and that well', it honestly reeks of the Ballard situation a while back when we were still clinging to the idea that he might pan out here in time.

And that's not to say that Ballard or Booth are 'bad' or 'useless' players. They aren't. They could both be very good on a different team with a different coach and different makeup to the group. But on this team the way it is now...both are albatross contracts. And if Gillis can recognize and admit his mistake with the Ballard fiasco before it's too late on Booth...i'll be impressed. Otherwise...i'll continue to question the moves here.

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