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2004 Bolts vs 2006 Canes

View Poll Results: Which team was better?
2004 Tampa Bay Lightning 39 86.67%
2006 Carolina Hurricanes 6 13.33%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-04-2013, 08:38 PM
  #1
Stars and Bolts
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2004 Bolts vs 2006 Canes

Whenever people make a list of recent Stanley Cup champions, these 2 are always toward the bottom of the list. The last SC champion before the 2005 season long lockout, and the first one after it. Which team do you think was better?

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03-04-2013, 08:45 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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The Lightning were the President's Trophy winners and had a very good core, even if they didn't necessarily have a top shut down defenseman - though honestly, Kubina was as good as anything Carolina had.

The Lightning were basically destroyed by the lockout and free agency (Khabibulin leaving and Richards getting that stupid contract that ate too much cap space).

I remember that going into the lockout, people thought the Lightning would be contenders for years to come.

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03-04-2013, 11:49 PM
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Stars and Bolts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Lightning were the President's Trophy winners and had a very good core, even if they didn't necessarily have a top shut down defenseman - though honestly, Kubina was as good as anything Carolina had.

The Lightning were basically destroyed by the lockout and free agency (Khabibulin leaving and Richards getting that stupid contract that ate too much cap space).

I remember that going into the lockout, people thought the Lightning would be contenders for years to come.
The Lightning were first in the East (2nd overall in the league) and the Red Wings won the President's Trophy. I agree with everything else you said though.

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03-05-2013, 01:50 AM
  #4
Evincar
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Lightning were the President's Trophy winners and had a very good core, even if they didn't necessarily have a top shut down defenseman - though honestly, Kubina was as good as anything Carolina had.

The Lightning were basically destroyed by the lockout and free agency (Khabibulin leaving and Richards getting that stupid contract that ate too much cap space).

I remember that going into the lockout, people thought the Lightning would be contenders for years to come.
Stillman was a big loss too. I think Tampa is the easy choice here.

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03-05-2013, 08:21 AM
  #5
Leafsdude7
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The Bolts AINEC. The Canes top d-pair included Bret Hedican. 'Nuff said.

The Canes are, by far, the worst Cup winner of the modern era.

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03-05-2013, 08:57 AM
  #6
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Because I'm bored, here's, from memory, the two regular lineups for those teams for their respective post-season runs:

Tampa Bay Lightning:
Left Wing Centre Right Wing
33 Fredrik Modin 19 Brad Richards 26 Martin St. Louis
16 Cory Stillman 4 Vincent Lecavalier 17 Ruslan Fedotenko
25 Dave Andreychuk 27 Tim Taylor 29 Dmitri Afanasenkov
11 Chris Dingman 9 Eric Perrin 36 Andre Roy

Scratches: Martin Cibak, Ben Clymer, Shane Willis

Defence Defence
22 Dan Boyle 13 Pavel Kubina
21 Cory Sarich 55 Darryl Sydor
44 Nolan Pratt 37 Brad Lukowich

Scratches: Jassen Cullimore, Darren Rumble

Goalies
35 Nikolai Khabibulin
47 John Grahame

Carolina Hurricanes:
Left Wing Centre Right Wing
61 Cory Stillman 17 Rod Brind'Amour 11 Justin Williams
13 Ray Whitney 12 Eric Staal 18 Mark Recchi
8 Matt Cullen 39 Doug Weight 59 Chad LaRose
16 Andrew Ladd 14 Kevyn Adams 27 Craig Adams

Scratches: Erik Cole (Injured), Josef Vasicek

Defence Defence
6 Bret Hedican 2 Frantisek Kaberle
4 Aaron Ward 7 Niclas Wallin
2 Glen Wesley 22 Mike Commodore

Scratches: Oleg Tverdovsky, Danny Richmond

Goalies
30 Cam Ward
29 Martin Gerber

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than goaltending, there's not really a competition. Sarich/Sydor/Pratt/Lukowich > Ward/Wallin/Wesley/Commodore, Boyle/Kubina >>>>> Hedican/Kaberle, and Stillman is on the top line with Carolina and on the 2nd line (and sometimes the 3rd line) with Tampa. I might give Carolina the edge down the middle (Brind'Amour/Staal/Weight is probably better than Lecavalier/Richards/Taylor), but more likely that's at best tie since Weight and Brind'Amour were literally on their last legs and Richards and Lecavalier were both in their prime.

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03-05-2013, 09:08 AM
  #7
vadim sharifijanov
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i don't think the canes were as bad as maybe some people think. but yeah, this is the lightning.

i'm imagining if these two teams played each other in a seven game series, the superior depth and savvy veteran playoff experience of the hurricanes would still be no match for the mighty onslaught of tampa's top two lines, even if tampa had an unplayable fourth line.

on defense, again tampa has a slightly better higher end, carolina has better depth. it's not as stark as MSL, conn smythe richards, and lecavalier vs. 21 year old staal and 35 year old brind'amour, but kubina and breaking-out boyle are still better than hedican and aaron ward.

in goal, i go with khabi over rookie ward all day, every day.


rosters, to the best of my recollection:

modin richards st. louis
stillman lecavalier fedotenko
taylor andreychuk afanasenkov
dingman perrin/cibak/clymer roy

sydor boyle
sarich kubina
lukowich pratt
cullimore/neckar

khabibulin
grahame


vs.


cole/cullen staal recchi
stillman brind'amour williams
whitney weight [double shift]
ladd adams larose/other adams
vasicek

hedican commodore
kaberle ward
wesley wallin
tverdovsky

ward
gerber


both teams feasted on the PP, though carolina did to almost historic levels. tampa, on the other hand, didn't take a lot of penalties (part of this is due to era, but the lightning also took 45 fewer penalties than the '04 flames despite playing in only three fewer games). that probably takes away carolina's greatest advantage (they scored a ridiculous 42% of their playoff goals on the PP).

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03-05-2013, 09:22 AM
  #8
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Other than goaltending, there's not really a competition. Sarich/Sydor/Pratt/Lukowich > Ward/Wallin/Wesley/Commodore, Boyle/Kubina >>>>> Hedican/Kaberle, and Stillman is on the top line with Carolina and on the 2nd line (and sometimes the 3rd line) with Tampa. I might give Carolina the edge down the middle (Brind'Amour/Staal/Weight is probably better than Lecavalier/Richards/Taylor), but more likely that's at best tie since Weight and Brind'Amour were literally on their last legs and Richards and Lecavalier were both in their prime.
funny-- i would much rather ice wesley and wallin as my bottom pair than lukowich and pratt, though we've certainly seen far worse bottom pairs than those two over the years (hello anaheim and lebda-lilja/chelios' corpse).

and while brind'amour was near the end, he was also far and away the best forward of the playoff that year. though, if i recall, andreychuk took many of taylor's third line center duties. centers are basically a draw though if you think of richards and brind'amour being pretty close, staal and lecavalier being pretty close, and weight and andreychuk probably being in andreychuk's favour.

i think the things that swing in carolina's favour are bottom pair D; the fact that their checking line was their fourth line, not third; and that they had a whole other scoring line that tampa didn't. but with st. louis, richards, and lecavalier all at or close to peak form, those guys could handle the extra minutes that came with being on basically a three line team.

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03-05-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
funny-- i would much rather ice wesley and wallin as my bottom pair than lukowich and pratt
I'd personally take Pratt over Wallin, and Wesley was aging at that point in time, though probably still better than Lukowich. I still view Wallin/Ward and their 2nd pair, of which I'd take Sydor/Sarich over every time. Even if it was Ward/Kaberle, I still think Sydor and Sarich were much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
though we've certainly seen far worse bottom pairs than those two over the years (hello anaheim and lebda-lilja/chelios' corpse).
Both Detroit and Anaheim had HOF caliber top pair defensemen who played 30+ minutes every game those years. Their 3rd pair only had to play under 10 minutes a night. Tampa and Carolina both had their 3rd pairs playing 12-15 minutes a night and a top pair playing 22-25 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
and while brind'amour was near the end, he was also far and away the best forward of the playoff that year. though, if i recall, andreychuk took many of taylor's third line center duties. centers are basically a draw though if you think of richards and brind'amour being pretty close, staal and lecavalier being pretty close, and weight and andreychuk probably being in andreychuk's favour.
I think Richards >>>> Brind'Amour that year, and Staal, while not bad, was still young, and Lecavalier was on fire all playoffs that year. I think Weight was probably much much MUCH better than Andreychuk/Taylor, though, so that's why I think it's close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i think the things that swing in carolina's favour are bottom pair D; the fact that their checking line was their fourth line, not third; and that they had a whole other scoring line that tampa didn't. but with st. louis, richards, and lecavalier all at or close to peak form, those guys could handle the extra minutes that came with being on basically a three line team.
Honestly, I think Fedotenko and Modin get severely underrated for their performance with Tampa that playoff run. Both were big, physical and clutch and clicked extremely well with their centres. Carolina did have 3 lines, but I don't think their wingers were quite as high quality as the three beasts that the Lightning had.

In the end, I think the fact that Stillman played such an important role on the Canes, while with the Lightning he was more of a "whatever you get from him is a bonus" player shows that, while the Canes had more offensive talent to pick from in their regular line up, the Lightning had a much more consistently high level group.

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03-05-2013, 01:49 PM
  #10
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I think the differences in their offense comes down to St. Louis being better than any of the Hurricanes' wingers, but the Cullen line holding the edge against the Tampa third line. I'm picking the guy en-route to the Hart.

Also, there's no way 2006 Brind'Amour was on his last legs. That was the first of consecutive Selke-winning seasons for him, and he put the fear of God in my Sabres-cheeering-for ass throughout those playoffs.


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03-05-2013, 09:44 PM
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Luigi Lemieux
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Canes were much better than people give them credit for. They had 52 wins and 112 points for crying out loud...they weren't some cinderella team.

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03-05-2013, 10:20 PM
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Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
Canes were much better than people give them credit for. They had 52 wins and 112 points for crying out loud...they weren't some cinderella team.
No they weren't, they were right along with Ottawa and for a while Detroit at the top point leaders in the NHL. However, a lot of that can be chalked up to the fact that they played in the weak Southeast division. Atlanta, Washington, Florida and Tampa. Only Tampa squeaked into the playoffs. So they played a lot of their games in their division pounding on weak teams. They just seemed like an unlikely Cup winner. Everyone seemed to think this was Ottawa's year and I guess Detroit is never out of the mix.

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03-05-2013, 10:22 PM
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I honestly think I've heard it all. Brind'Amour and Weight on their last legs in 2006? Brindy had 70 points in 78 games that year winning the Selke in the process, and followed that up with 18 in 25 in the playoffs where he was garnering some serious Conn Smythe discussion. He followed up that with a season of 82 points in 78 games and another Selke in 07, and 51 in 59 the next season.

Weight, while not his Oilers form anymore, still had 57 points that season and 16 in 23 playoff games, and followed that up with 59 the next year in St Louis.

Both teams had outsanding regular seasons their cup years (Bolts #1 in the east 2 points ahead of Boston, Canes #2 in east one point behind Ottawa).

Goaltending was basically a wash IMO, both Bulin and Ward were stellar in their runs. Canes were better down the middle overall. Tampa had a slightly better top 6 offensively, Canes the slightly better top 9 offensively. Bolts top pair was definitely better, Canes defensive depth was a bit better.

Biggest difference to me is the Brind'Amour-Williams combo was also the Canes top defensive forward combo as well. Overall I'd say this is pretty even.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No they weren't, they were right along with Ottawa and for a while Detroit at the top point leaders in the NHL. However, a lot of that can be chalked up to the fact that they played in the weak Southeast division. Atlanta, Washington, Florida and Tampa. Only Tampa squeaked into the playoffs. So they played a lot of their games in their division pounding on weak teams. They just seemed like an unlikely Cup winner. Everyone seemed to think this was Ottawa's year and I guess Detroit is never out of the mix.
I get so sick of this argument, it's based on hyperbole and not reality. The Canes that year were 7-2-1 vs the west (.750 of points available), 13-4-3 vs the Atlantic (.725%), 14-5-1 vs the Northeast (.725% again), and 18-11-3 vs the Southeast (.609%). Ottawa was the favorite but quite a few people including Melrose on ESPN at the start of the playoffs picked the Canes to get to the SCF and win the Cup.


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03-05-2013, 10:37 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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I can't believe the poll is this lopsided. The only argument for Tampa is on the blueline. Upfront, Carolina burries them with depth.

Brind'Amour "on his last legs" is one of the most uninformed comments I've ever seen on this forum. He was a beast the entire season. Staal wasn't far behind. Both were arguably better than Richards, and definitely better than Lecavalier.

On the wing, St. Louis is obviously the best, but it thins out pretty quickly. Stillman=Stillman (duh), then you have Williams, Whitney, Recchi, and Cole (who was injured the whole playoffs anyway) up against Modin, Fedotenko, Andreychuk, and Afansenkov. That's not even remotely close.

Third and fourth lines, huge advantage Carolina. You could have Matt Cullen and Doug Weight on your third line when everyone is healthy. A young Ladd and the two Adams' or Vasicek is a more than capable fourth line. Larose is in there too. All guys that have/had solid NHL careers. Tampa Bay is answering with Andre Roy, Chris Dingman, and Eric Perrin. Good grief.

I liked both these teams, and this would be a good series. But Carolina's advantage in depth on all four lines is too much for me to take the Bolts to beat them head to head. I'll never understand why Carolina is considered a weak champion. They basically had 9 forwards that wouldn't look out of place on a team's 1st line. Nine!

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03-06-2013, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
Canes were much better than people give them credit for. They had 52 wins and 112 points for crying out loud...they weren't some cinderella team.
The raw totals are misleading - they were only +26 in goal differential.

If I recall correctly, Ottawa and Detroit were ~+100 that year.

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03-06-2013, 12:55 AM
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I'll never understand why Carolina is considered a weak champion. They basically had 9 forwards that wouldn't look out of place on a team's 1st line. Nine!
I actually liked their roster in the playoffs too. They are considered a weak champion for a two reasons:
1. They barely won 3 of their 4 series despite their opponent having key injuries.
2. They have had no success since their Cup win. (Outside of a miracle run to the ECF in 2009)

That might be unfair but I think those are the reasons for the consensus.

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03-06-2013, 12:24 PM
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I actually liked their roster in the playoffs too. They are considered a weak champion for a two reasons:
1. They barely won 3 of their 4 series despite their opponent having key injuries.
2. They have had no success since their Cup win. (Outside of a miracle run to the ECF in 2009)

That might be unfair but I think those are the reasons for the consensus.
I think the bolded is the biggest reason people underrate that team. They missed the playoffs in both the season before and the season after the Cup run, and the majority of people aren't going to sit down and compare rosters to see the personnel differences involved. The assumption is typically that they were just a fluke one-off team that went on a hot streak, which is very far from the truth.

Reason #1 has more to do with the media frenzy around those playoff opponents than the severity of the injury situations. Montreal, Buffalo, Edmonton. Habs fans flipped out over Koivu's injury, but he had 2 secondary assists on their 12 goals to that point. They didn't lose the series because they needed Koivu. Buffalo fans still bellyache about their defense situation that spring, ignoring that they scored only 7 goals in the final 4 games and had Campbell, Numminen, Lydman, Gaustad and McKee in the lineup for Game 7. Edmonton... well, you can't blame the goalie for scoring 1 goal in a loss. But in all three cases, there was a media echo chamber around those storylines that still exists today. Nobody mentions that the Hurricanes were playing without their starting goaltender and a 30-goal winger, and had (legitimate) home ice in all 4 of their playoff series because they were better than those teams.

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03-06-2013, 12:29 PM
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Jay McKee and Teppo Numminen absolutely did not play in game 7. It was Campbell-Lydman and then four of Paetsch, Jillison, Fitzpatrick and Janik. Say what you will about Buffalo not adding a piece to their blueline after seeing 40 games of Fitzpatrick, but their defensive depth by the end of that series was gutted.

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03-06-2013, 02:38 PM
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Jay McKee and Teppo Numminen absolutely did not play in game 7. It was Campbell-Lydman and then four of Paetsch, Jillison, Fitzpatrick and Janik. Say what you will about Buffalo not adding a piece to their blueline after seeing 40 games of Fitzpatrick, but their defensive depth by the end of that series was gutted.
Maybe it was Game 6 then. I'm certain that they played late in the series, with time enough to win the requisite number of games to advance.

I mean, don't get me wrong, losing that many defensemen for a Game 7 sucks. But based on the emphasis that some Sabres fans put on that unlucky break, you'd think the Sabres were just a clear-cut better team felled by injury. It was a close, back-and-forth series when Buffalo had only one defenseman out, and Game 7 was far from a guaranteed win for them even if both teams had been icing a full lineup. The fact that there was "only" a two-goal difference in the final game doesn't mean that the better team didn't win.

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03-06-2013, 03:18 PM
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I'll add another question: Who wins in how many games if these 2 teams played a series? I'd go with Tampa Bay in 6.

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03-06-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
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I'll add another question: Who wins in how many games if these 2 teams played a series? I'd go with Tampa Bay in 6.
I'd go Tampa in 5, maybe 6. Canes should be able to win one or two games based on their goaltending alone, but they don't have the offensive firepower or defensive talent to compete with the big 3 on TB, especially with Boyle, Sydor and Kubina on the blue line.

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03-06-2013, 03:34 PM
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Buffalo fans still bellyache about their defense situation that spring, ignoring that they scored only 7 goals in the final 4 games and had Campbell, Numminen, Lydman, Gaustad and McKee in the lineup for Game 7. Edmonton... well, you can't blame the goalie for scoring 1 goal in a loss. But in all three cases, there was a media echo chamber around those storylines that still exists today. Nobody mentions that the Hurricanes were playing without their starting goaltender and a 30-goal winger, and had (legitimate) home ice in all 4 of their playoff series because they were better than those teams.
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Maybe it was Game 6 then. I'm certain that they played late in the series, with time enough to win the requisite number of games to advance.

I mean, don't get me wrong, losing that many defensemen for a Game 7 sucks. But based on the emphasis that some Sabres fans put on that unlucky break, you'd think the Sabres were just a clear-cut better team felled by injury. It was a close, back-and-forth series when Buffalo had only one defenseman out, and Game 7 was far from a guaranteed win for them even if both teams had been icing a full lineup. The fact that there was "only" a two-goal difference in the final game doesn't mean that the better team didn't win.
yeah, numminen and mckee's last game of that series was the game 6-- which the sabres won. numminen barely played in that game, because he was injured. and he didn't finish the first period in game 1, which was the only other icetime he saw in that series.

i don't want to take anything away from those hurricanes, which were a very good team. i've stood up for them in this thread, though i think the lightning were stronger. but that sabres team was more special than i think you know.

i was living in western new york at the time and watched almost that entire playoff run, as well as the next one. tallinder was playing out of his mind; i don't know what got into him that spring, but he was norris good. the sabres played that entire series without their second pair of kalinin and numminen. they were about to go up 2-1 in the series when tallinder went down. that left them with just lydman, who was excellent as tallinder's partner on the top pair, and their bottom pair of mckee and campbell. mckee, of course, didn't make it go game 7 because he developed some kind of bacterial infection on a cut he sustained while blocking a shot. which means in game 7 the hurricanes beat a team with only their #2 and #6 defensemen still in the lineup.

you're right: it was a close series. and everyone has injuries during a long playoff run, obviously. you guys would have loved to have erik cole, i'm sure; but then tim connolly was pretty close to leading the playoffs in scoring when he got hurt at the beginning of round 2 (5 goals, 6 assists, in 7 games). but if you look at games 5 and 7 of the ECF, that was just a team that ran out of steam. buffalo had leads in both, before the canes came back to score three straight goals both times. which is, of course, what happens when you have rory fitzpatrick playing 25 minutes. honestly, i think it was one of those cases where even though the games were tight, buffalo with even just tallinder takes this in 5 or 6. that team just always had an answer for what you'd throw at them, offensively. for example, i don't think those canes were any deeper or more talented, or even more deadly on the PP, than the '06 sens. but the sabres dispatched of those senators in 5 one goal games, and at least to me it was clear that the right team won.

to me, it actually shows just how good that sabres forward corps was that they were able to score as much as they did in the last three games with three of their four puck moving D out of the lineup and the fourth, young brian campbell, not being allowed by lindy ruff to play the risky, offensive role we now associate with him. consider that they score ten goals in the first three games with tallinder, and only seven in the last four games without him. makes sense when you have rory fitzpatrick, doug janik, and jeff jillson starting your breakouts, and nathan paetsch seeing first ever NHL action in game seven.

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03-06-2013, 03:37 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Maybe it was Game 6 then. I'm certain that they played late in the series, with time enough to win the requisite number of games to advance.

I mean, don't get me wrong, losing that many defensemen for a Game 7 sucks. But based on the emphasis that some Sabres fans put on that unlucky break, you'd think the Sabres were just a clear-cut better team felled by injury. It was a close, back-and-forth series when Buffalo had only one defenseman out, and Game 7 was far from a guaranteed win for them even if both teams had been icing a full lineup. The fact that there was "only" a two-goal difference in the final game doesn't mean that the better team didn't win.
That sentiment has something to do with being up 1 going into the third period of game 7 and only losing the series because of a penalty to one of the two regulars left on the blueline.

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03-06-2013, 03:41 PM
  #24
struckbyaparkedcar
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If you wanna say the 06 Canes were better because A) they were more durable and B) Buffalo has no excuse for seeing 48 games of Fitzpatrick and not even marginally upgrading him, that's fine, but don't say "the best team won regardless of injury." It's just not true.

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03-06-2013, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
If you wanna say the 06 Canes were better because A) they were more durable and B) Buffalo has no excuse for seeing 48 games of Fitzpatrick and not even marginally upgrading him, that's fine, but don't say "the best team won regardless of injury." It's just not true.
The Hurricanes had home ice in the series and won 3 of the 4 regular season matchups. They were also icing a team that had the standard list of playoff injuries that every team experiences, which in their case included bringing a sick #1 goalie back into the lineup only to have him prove unready and having to rotate him back out in the middle of a game (and winning that game in spite of it).

There is no truth value to the hypothetical that Buffalo would have suddenly become the better team after being even at best during the season up until Game 5, and that their defensemen would have made a +3 goal difference in Game 7. It's a hypothetical, neither true nor untrue, based on speculation.

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